The Class 150 Sounds…

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Oct 21, 2021.

  1. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Mean while over on rivets twitter they are posting time lapse videos of how the 150 was built, are they idiots hyping a borked release or they have every faith regardless of sounds that enough money will be made on release (next two weeks i suspect) to not worry what anyone here thinks?.... I don't agree with this latter sentiment but just get the feeling this is a "release" and "we are looking into it" approach up coming, hope I'm wrong, but doubt it
     
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  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Surely this would mean DTG would want a larger portion of sales revenue, meaning Rivet get less money, disincentivising them from producing more DLC?
    In the end both companies need money to make software, so how do you see this working?
     
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  3. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Well if he doesn't already have it, he needs to resist the urge to buy it on day one, then continue to complain about the audio issues.

    I'd like the WCL route, and when it's finished to a standard I find acceptable, I'll give them an amount of money I think is appropriate, ie, if I don't think it's worth £24.99, I'm not going to pay full price, then complain about how it isn't worth full price - I'll wait for a sale. If they fix the issues, I'm more likely to pay a higher price.
     
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  4. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    I have NOT bought it, and will not until I hear a vast improvement
     
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  5. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Not if the workload is reduced. Say Rivet make the train model and DTG do the sounds, that means Rivet wouldn't need to spend the time working on sounds and instead can move onto the next project sooner. I.e. they get paid less per project but also spend less time on them, so presumably it would even out/have no economic impact.

    Actually it would be a good thing, as DTG can subcontract out more modelling that they wouldn't otherwise have the resources to do in-house. I know DTG want to encourage more independent 3rd party DLCs, but having more teams working on a common project would be better quality-wise, especially if it enhances route detail and provides more rolling stock (in addition to allowing DTG to churn out DLCs more frequently). (Hopefully that isn't a load of rubbish...)
     
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  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Someone suggesting DTG do the sounds... will wonders never cease
     
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  7. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think this is what Matt was hinting at on the state of the game stream last week. More dedicated teams to things like German routes etc.
    We already know they're looking at more engineers and loco designers as well as a specific ingame sound lead because the current person is less specific on game sound mechanics
     
  8. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Well if it turns out any better than Rivet's attempt then I'm all for it...
     
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  9. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    Ah I miss those sounds :(
    ( not my work l
     
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  10. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Active Member

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    It is a shame mate, lovely sounds they are. Be glad when a competitor actually comes in and does better than this shameful company and its 3rd party fraudsters.
     
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No. "A" bugs are game-crashing bugs and the like.
     
  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Or, to take another fraught example: when it became apparent the Skyhook (for whatever reason) didn't have BR 187 sounds, DTG could have let them in on the re-done Dresden 185 sound package, which isn't accurate for the loco, to be sure, but at least isn't the screechy nightmare that Skyhook wound up using.
     
  13. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    All those of us that are disgusted by the sounds so far - if it hasn’t changed by release date we should all plaster horrendous reviews over their page and store product page to warn others before they buy it, BUT with the proposal that should the sounds be improved and to an acceptable level, I for one would very happily re-edit said review into a glowing positive one. Bit of negative press will make them sit up and act instead of just ‘hearing us’ as they keep saying.
     
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  14. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    There was a thread of the br204 and the wrong setup of the transmission in the simugraph, they would need to rebuild the entire loco which isnt gonna happen.

    If the physics of the cl.150 are really wrong, we would have a similar situation.

    Looks like dtg isnt gonna fix older content too, but the 150 isnt released yet so they should stop this right now and get their stuff done what needs to be fixed. I can wait..

    What even annoyes me more than an inaccurate class 150 dlc is, that dtg for sure is not gonna release a well produced 150 as seperate loco dlc.

    If Rivet is doing a bit thinking in the future, then they should have noticed that with more 80s/90s routes their cl.150 could be layered and people would need the wcl to buy, which brings more sales.

    So my conclusion is, we are at an interessting point with tsw2 and its growing content, so even for small team like rivet there is absolutley no reason to be lazy.

    My point is not, that the software engineer did a bad job, there are just technical things which are not easy to understand and cant be made by data only, so they should test their product with a person who actually was driving the real train.
    Im sure therr are 100 ways to get something right.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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  15. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Active Member

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    Or not buy it at all.
    Do you realize that this company has absolute contempt for their customers?
    Has it sunk in yet?
     
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  16. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously not buy it - but leave reviews too, to warn others
     
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  17. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Active Member

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    Can you leave a review without buying it though? On steam I mean.
     
  18. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    You can buy, review, then refund.
     
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  19. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    great idea - at least then we can fully test it and give it a fair chance……you never know they may have actually taken on board how appalling the sounds are and actually done something about it, but to be fair, I just saw a flying pig… hehe
     
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  20. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Matt has often said that they pay attention to comments on the forums.
    It will be interesting to see if the sound has been adjusted in the interim.
     
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  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    So a train with literally no audio isn't considered a major bug? I can already imagine the uproar if London Commuter released with no sound from the Class 377-387.

    The auido issue with the 150 and M7 seem quite similar. Rivet have the proper audio files for the 150 from AP but it hasn't been implemented properly. DTG have audio files for the M7, yet for some reason they don't bother actually implemting them correctly and thus fixing the issue even though they have the resources to do so. Rivet probably won't bother fixing the audio issue even though they could get help from DTG presumably. If the route is currently "delayed" and if the audio on the 150 isn't fixed, then that would be a missed opportunity but not a suprise given rivet's track record.
     
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  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Where has this been said?

    Which means that they likely DON'T have the resources to do so... Having the sounds files and having the expertise and mechanisms to mix them and the coding skills to apply them are very different things.
     
  23. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    That's the point, the sounds, the mixing etc... is not the cause but the effect (for the engine/transmission related sounds at least).

    Let's say a car in a racing game doesn't have any transitions between gears (so it sounds like they dubbed a combustion engine sound into an electric car), obviously it sounds wrong but that's not the point is it? Just like the BR204 "solving the sound issue" probabily means redoing most of the train's physics from scratch, and given the fact they got it wrong twice already, unless DTG gets involved or this project gets allotted more time and resources, I can't see it happening TBH. Although the fact it's not released yet might be good sign, who knows? I can see why they don't want another BR187.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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  24. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of leaving bad reviews. Unless a review is constructive, I’m not going to pay any attention to it anyway. I put off buying TSW 2020 because of bad reviews and then found out I really liked it. Problem is on steam there are people that pick on one specific point and then go on to be quite derogatory. Totally positive reviews are just as useless.

    I’m far more likely to pay attention to a YouTube stream where I can see it and hear it for myself or even buy it and refund if necessary.
     
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  25. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    So here we are, make or buy?

    Im not expecting rivet to have skills for everything, which is impossible anyway. A software engineer would need to be a technical expert of trains too to deliver our expected quality.

    So, if they are not skilled to mix sound properly, why not outsource the work to dtg? Im sure the cost for a good work will rewarded due more sales.
     
  26. roysto25

    roysto25 Active Member

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    I second Tigert1966 - a constructive review might attract my attention, but offensively negative reviews I will ignore - and we all know the usual suspects. Furthermore, such language as calling developers 'fraudsters' will achieve little - the targets of such invective are likely to have less rather than more interest in satisfying those users desires. Let's keep things civil please.
     
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  27. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    At the end of the day, for me, if a company can't be bothered putting real effort into their product or at least attempt to fix known faults with their product then I can't be bothered to get may wallet out and pay for such product.
     
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  28. flghttrainsm#6320

    flghttrainsm#6320 Member

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    Me neither heck I would prob pay an extra £5 -£10 even more depending on the quality and realism; if the traction sounds were fixed and realistic , the missing track sounds implented and physics we're realistic because without these fixes it's immersion breaking for me a sim enthusiast both train , bus and flightsim to buy this dlc in its current state
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In one of the recent streams, can't remember which one, Matt explained that DTG rank bugs as A, B or C. A bugs are the Literally Nonfunctional App variety: game crashes, the current PS5 mess and the like. Wholly missing sounds I would venture are Bs, but my guess is that merely inaccurate sounds are Cs (if counted as bugs at all and not "design choices") along with holes in the scenery and poor textures. However, he also said that some are called "high B" and "high C," because they are very visible (audible) issues that directly affect enjoyment for the majority of players (as opposed to, say, a poorly implemented road that's only visible by exploring way off-track on foot), and those get elevated priority. A good example of a High-B that was addressed promptly was the F7 brake setup issue on Clinchfield.
     
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  30. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    So we're further down the track , accelerating uphill on notch one to release. What do you think has changed?
     
  31. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I'm with Tallboy especially when he said about the older routes. Let's face it DTG struggle with sound as well, despite a new team. I wonder if they set that up just to avoid paying AP. I don't know about the finances involved but I don't know why DTG just don't use AP all the time.

    With this route I doubt I will buy it in it's current state and we know they won't fix the sounds. But is there a chance of fixing the sound if they get the physics and timing fixed?
     
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  32. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    i totally agree. I wouldn’t just put a pointless review. I would itemise every single thing that is what we’d deem a major fault with the product and also mention how much the community have offered to help them, sent loads of data off for them etc…..for absolutely no reward or payment, freebies etc and even now they haven’t got in touch with any of us. A fair honest review to show not only the quality of product ( or lack of ) but most importantly the attitude of the company.

    Example….I take my Range Rover, not to the main dealer, not to the local back street garage but a trusted Land Rover specialist. He’s expensive BUT has never failed to fix my car, never ripped me off, always gave me honest advice. He is nearly £100 an hour BUT I use him because of how good he is and how amazing he treats his customers. Customer relations is crucial otherwise they’ll go elsewhere,
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    More like "Do we hire a competent game engine sound engineer?"
    You can buy the best sounds you like (Such as the AP ones which are great) but if you can mix for toffee you're going to end up with it sounding like a dogs dinner, and the 150 is wired wrong and therefore sounds wrong
     
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  34. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I would of thought getting AP to mix it would have saved them time and money in the long run. Same for DTG.
     
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  35. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    So i guess thats the job of a sound engineer in a game studio, to make sound sounding nice in the end product. Eather record them and mix them after having the raw sound files.

    And if you cant get the mix right, buy that part from dtg, which have experience in creating immersion.

    Thats a common way to do things for getting a product done. Even the trains we produce, parts like pantos, coupplers, brake components are bought from other companies.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    AP don't work in TSW, so they might provide the raw sound files but that's about it (so far)

    If you watched the "state of the game stream" DTG are actually looking to hire a proper game sound engineer because the guy who does it at the moment is NOT a game sound engineer. (note bold on game as emphasis on that point)
     
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  37. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Kind of hate to say this guys. It's over...

    Rivet don't care,

    Jaspers too busy picking up his friend from the station or saying "he will look into it"

    It will be released on the 4th with journey mode updated, door opening at penzance updated and safety systems updated, but no sound improvements.

    Then Colin (rivet director) will sit down with the team and say "well lessons learnt... blah blah... o wait here's the accountant... thanks for picking him up jasper....what's that you say...30% profit margin... job done... let's get back to looking into arosa....but look everyone no promises etc....back to work"
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2021
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  38. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Out of curiosity, where did you get this date from?
     
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  39. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Yes thats true, but even if the one from dtg is not titled a "sound engineer", his work seems very impressive to me.

    In the end for me a nice immersion on a accurate base matters.
     
  40. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Best guess from Sam on last night's stream. They have nothing for that week currently, so makes sense
     
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  41. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    sadly I worry that you are right. I really do. The unit is completely ruined by the crap sounds so I won’t be buying it.
     
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  42. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    This made me chuckle. Top quality content….. if you’re stone deaf!!!

    854D02E9-6EB9-43B5-8636-D081226B1824.jpeg
     
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  43. flghttrainsm#6320

    flghttrainsm#6320 Member

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    That is quite hilarious actually
     
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  44. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Active Member

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    Rivet Games: I hate you; Pay me.
     
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  45. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’m not disagreeing that the audio needs to be better (and the physics that drive that audio) but a great deal of this thread has been taken up with a complaint of Rivet not using some unsolicited research material that was sent in far too late to be of any use, i.e. after the DLC was made and previewed. I could understand if it was research material from someone who works on the train in question and had been offered up earlier but I’m failing to grasp how good something along the lines of “Traction motor LOUD” from a piano teacher is good technical material for a developer to work from. Or am I missing something fundamental here (slightly musical joke)?
     
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  46. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I feel your pain with labour costs for mine. I’d rather pay rivet for dodgy sounds than the exuberant bill I just had for an oil cooler and unobtainable pipe, that’s a grumble for fullfatrr though, not here :D
     
  47. Veryfatbloke

    Veryfatbloke Member

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    For somebody who's not going to buy it, you're taking every opportunity to run Rivet down. It's getting boring now.
     
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  48. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    Firstly - what have you done to help them? I sent over a multitude of gps recordings and real life acceleration and braking data for them to use for when they were doing their testing.
    Secondly, this was not sent in too late as I sent the data recordings from actual stock the moment the route was announced and NOT after the first stream of the unit. We are talking MONTHS ago.
    Thirdly - It wash’t the traction motor actually. it was just a quick document to highlight the types of sounds and features that have been missed in the past by some of DTG’s and something for them to research and include properly. Pointers off you like.
     
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  49. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    I really want to buy it and absolutely will if the corrections are made. I’m facing a £4000 bill for my Range Rover at the moment, (Turbos have possibly blown) £25 really is barely a drop in the ocean to me. It’s not about the cost of the DLC. It is the principal of QUALITY of it. Wouldn’t bother me if the DLC’s were £100 each or £1…. as long as they simulate the real thing I’m happy to part with money!
     
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  50. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Active Member

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    They really need running down, there is no passion with that company when it comes down to their attempts to satisfy the customer. You could speak to other members about previously released DLC from RIVET and how fixes are left on the back burner..
     
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