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The End Of Tsw?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Digital Draftsman, Aug 28, 2018.

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  1. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Well-Known Member

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    It's a matter of mindset. Yes, the game officially is not in beta any longer. But when you start to "believe" that the game still is in beta, it explains many of the game's pitfalls.
     
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  2. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    TSW certainly isn't a beta, because generally betaware is 'feature complete', and TSW isn't feature complete. So really TSW is more akin to an Alpha release!

    The DLC is also missing features. They said that PIS and ATP would be coming to GWE, only to backtrack and say 'the amount of effort that will need to go into it is better placed elsewhere', 'elsewhere' being the next DLC. The same happened with the broken PZB on RT, they can't fix it because 'we simply don't have resources available to undertake a project of that magnitude right now,' no doubt those resources are being directed at the next piece of DLC.
     
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  3. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps they aren't able to discuss why it's taking so long.
     
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  4. solon

    solon Active Member

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    I think that these messages hurt TSW.

    TSW has difficulty to find his public for three reasons for the moment :
    - No editor, no addons by third party
    - Few scenarios
    - direct competition with Train simulator

    Nevertheless TSW is, potentially, much better than Train Simulator. I saw the display of the last one DLC of TS in Twitch. And having played TSW, I do not want to buy this DLC for TS. The graphics and the physics are outdated. The fact of not being able to move as in TSW is a very lack. The only positive thing in this DLC, it is the traffic road (cars and trucks), non-existent in TSW.

    Really it's a pity to bury here TSW and to incite not to buy it.
     
  5. TrainSim-Luke

    TrainSim-Luke Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what brought you to that conclusion. WSR is launching on consoles next Tuesday. We've already been saying RSN will follow not long after. Meanwhile the next new DLC release for PC's hasn't been announced yet.
    We're currently working on getting the consoles caught up to the PC, ideally to the point where future content is released to PC and consoles simultaneously.
     
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  6. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the response, I do appreciate it. I'll explain where I'm coming from.

    If you do the release the tools, then there will be a lot of 3rd party DLC only available to PC users, making the PC version much more attractive. PCs will also continue to improve, in terms of hardware, always out pacing console development; There are already compromises in terms of graphics and number of trains between the PC and console versions of TSW (you can't even have full length HSTs on GWE), that gap will only grow as time goes by. The PC gamer demographic has a much higher disposable income than the console demographic, disposable income is important for a DLC hungry game like TS/TSW. You also have a legacy issue, as there is no guarantee a new console will play the games for the previous one, much like the Xbox-One couldn't play Xbox-360 games on release. Console players will be less likely to spend vast sums of money on DLC when there's potential that their future console will be unable to play it; Whereas PC gamers will still be able to play their RS/RW/TSxx/TSW collection for years to come.

    I have also been party to data and projections from another company with a simulation/game, a game which is available across several platforms and is reliant on 3rd party modding, just like TSW. The conclusion we came to is that in order to make the console market more successful than the PC market for a game such as TSW, you'd have to actively stifle the PC market. An example of this would be restricting access to the tools required for modding and only permitting developers that develop across all platforms; Yes that might make consoles more 'popular' than the PC version, but overall you'll have less DLC being created by 3rd parties, DLC that you'd be getting a significant cut from. Thus restricting the amount of DLC might artificially make consoles more popular, but you'll hurt your profits overall.

    In order to simultaneously develop DLCs for each platform in such a manner as to permit as simultaneous release there will need to be additonal staff. You'll also need additional staff to deal with a lot more customer service issues coming in at once, where as presently those issues are staggered.

    That brings me to my point in my above post about allocating resources elsewhere whilst leaving past products broken and missing features, how do you justify taking people's money and then saying you don't have the resources to fix the product they purchased? You have even left the RT store page with the selling point of 'navigating the busy S-Bahn will require you to master the layout of the route and the functions and systems of your train as well as Deutsche Bahn’s unique signalling system.' You can't 'master' it because the PZB is broken.
     
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  7. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    solon ‘I saw the display of the last one DLC of TS in Twitch. And having played TSW, I do not want to buy this DLC for TS. The graphics and the physics are outdated. The fact of not being able to move as in TSW is a very lack. The only positive thing in this DLC, it is the traffic road (cars and trucks), non-existent in TSW.’

    I don’t disagree with you that the graphics are superior on TSW - and despite the number of downvotes I’m getting on this thread I’m not anti-TSW or anti-DTG. But is the traffic the only positive in TS?

    Yesterday I was on TS. I was building a scenario that used an free updated version of a Steam line (thank you DP Simulations), using DTG product, third party enhancement and sound pack improvements (AP) to DTG product and third party rolling stock. My route on the day was 75 miles and the only issue I ran into (after the twelfth AI consist) was the old memory issue that DTG say that they’re going to fix. The choice of rolling stock, and route appropriate liveries was only limited by that memory problem. And the graphics - well they weren’t that bad in my $1,000 gaming laptop. My DLC prices, given how often Steam/DTG and most third party providors have sales was very reasonable.

    So for me TS despite its age holds up well thanks to DTG and those third party providors.

    Trading away all those things I can do for better graphics at this point is a hard sell. Part of TSWs problem is that TS sets such a high barrier.

    I don’t doubt that DTG are intending to work on what’s missing like the editor (I’m less convinced on the third party issue) but the question is out there how long does it take TSW to ‘catch up’? The product has been around for a while, it has a handful of DLC but some key features only exist as promises. There are lots of unanswered questions. For example the TS editor for a newbie can be a barrier, I really doubt that the TSW editor is going to be any more user friendly. In fact I expect it to be way more complex. So the question is ‘how long’ before the gaps (editor, longer routes, third party DLC) close because until they do I think TS users like me (and I only started this year) are going to sit on the fence on using TSW meaningfully. In fact if DTG (bless them) provide 64 bit that will remove most users biggest problem making us even keener (a ‘new era’) to stick with TS. And I think that TSW needs, for its health to be converting more of us to the new platform.

    On console users I really think it’s a huge positive that DTG are providing a console option. It’s bringing a whole new audience to train simulation (and likely a whole new age demographic) which is wonderful. This isn’t a TSW vs. TS debate or a PC vs. console fight. But DTG could answer some of the questions (rough dates for the editor, confirmation of third party involvement) but they don’t. And that makes some of the older hands a little suspicious.

    I don’t disagree with the messages of ‘give them (DTG) time’ or ‘they don’t want to promise things that might get delayed’ but DTG could provide, at least by now, some sort of roadmap for the product - where’s it going over roughly how long.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
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  8. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Guest

    "...DTG could provide, at least by now, some sort of roadmap for the product..."
    DTG "SHOULD"provide, at least by now, some sort of roadmap for the product.
    But they simply do not care.
     
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  9. solon

    solon Active Member

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    Not only graphism, "atmosphere" in game also. When I play TSW, I really have the impression to be in a train, to travel etc. It's great.
    It is far from being completed, I agree. But it is necessary to take time to take advantage of it. And yes, I see mainly these three limits on PC:
    - No editor = no addons by third party
    - Few scenarios
    - direct competition with Train simulator

    Once this is resolved, it will be a very good simulator.
     
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  10. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    solon you are right immersion is a really important factor.

    TSW was released in March 2017, so that’s around 18 months. There are three routes that come with base pack and there are three DLC route packages. That isn’t a lot. As we both agree it’s missing several large - and let’s be honest - difficult features. Game technology is moving rapidly these days. It’s not unreasonable to think that in a couple of years people might be saying TSW graphics looked outdated. By then people might for example be demanding VR. So I see the DTG problem is that they need to move swiftly; they need to establish the game more rapidly than they are doing. I’m not sure that in today’s game market you have the luxury of time. I personally doubt that games developed today will have the life span that FSX or TS (under various guises) had.

    On the issue of being in direct competition with TS how does that get resolved? That is an issue entirely of DTG’s own making. I have suggested, as have others, that DTG should differentiate the products and markets more at least until TSW is more fully developed.

    DTG studiously avoid saying things. So we don’t even get a commitment that the Editor will be a 2018 (or even 2019) deliverable. On third parties there’s nothing. So as a user/client/supporter you are left with two choices, faith that it’s all going to be fine or suspicion that the silence is hiding bad things. Either thought, without any evidence is valid, but a marketing plan that has comments like ‘nothing to be said now, but we’re working on it’ on a Devstream don’t inspire confidence.

    Since the initial release their have been five pieces of DLC and the missing features have yet to be revealed. Perhaps people are happy with that but I worry that either that development of the sim and sim DLC is overly onerous and/or DTG aren’t investing enough (aka employing enough bodies) to make meaningful progress.
     
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  11. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    It is not in direct competition because it is owned by the same company.
    Did you know DTG owns both games? Yeah, me neither. /s
     
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  12. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Guest

    "...I’m not sure that in today’s game market you have the luxury of time..."
    I agree. If DTG has decided to develop a new program of railways, should devote himself with all his strength on this.
    Instead the last novelty is TS64-bit.
    The suspect is that there is a bit of confusion.
     
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  13. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Fabrizio520 I'm not sure 64 bit is a novelty. Providing that update would seem to be an attempt to give TS a few more years of commercial life. Done properly it will be a huge win for DTG with the train sim community and won’t do anything to encourage migration to TSW.

    MCGermanyFan is correct in this case, the appropriate term is ‘self competition’ rather than ‘direct competition’. It’s still a risky enterprise. The Wikipedia entry includes some excellent examples.
     
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  14. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Guest

    TS-64 bit to keep a clientele that owns old or poorly performing PCs.
    But this strategy, in 2018, with the technology that is continually progressing, could be a boomerang.
    The commercialization of TSW on Xbox/Ps4 is also a risk for two reasons:
    1- the current consolle will be replaced in 2 years with Ps5 etc.
    2 -here in Italy (where I live) the percentage of users who are willing to spend their money for a train game on Xbox/Ps4 is close to zero.
     
  15. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Fabrizio520 i don’t agree with the comment about the 64 bit being to help only old and poorly performing PCs. The current 32 bit limitation is a great leveler. No matter how good your gaming rig is the amount of memory available for the game is severely limited. It’s not a problem you can ‘buy’ your way around. Other limitations around the engine, even when 64 bit is introduced will remain like the number of cores used. It’s one frustrating thing people find, even throwing money at a great rig doesn’t resolve some issues. It is true that when 64 bit is available newer PCs with more memory, and more memory on the GPU may benefit more.
     
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  16. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Stop saying that the editors aren’t coming. They are. Be patient.
     
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  17. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro i can’t see where in the thread I or anyone else is saying that the Editor isn’t coming. When has always been the question, and despite a post on another thread yesterday that it would likely have more functionality than the TS one I don’t think there’s any evidence as to what the new editor will or won’t do.

    What I do think is wrong is the idea that once an editor is available all of the issues around TSW disappear. In fact it will likely add a new issue if (as I believe) the editor might not be console compatible. I’d be happy to be wrong.

    DTG have been very clear that there are plans for an editor and I can’t see them walking away from that. However is it unreasonable (if they are leery of providing a date) that they at least make a commitment like ‘we’re working to have it available in 2018’ or ‘2019’? Having worked on technology projects both as a client and as a providor reluctance to even suggest dates has never in my experience been the harbinger of good news.
     
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  18. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I have seen comments where people have said that the editor isn’t coming.

    The editor will be a modified UE4 editor.
     
  19. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
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  20. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro Perhaps the word ‘death’ is too emotive, and it’s certainly not one I’ve used. But how about the concept that TSW isn’t prospering as it should do? The average player count, despite the release of new DLCs, is barely higher (6 players/3%) then when it was released, and that’s an apples to apples comparison as both data points are PC only. That number should be way, way higher - I’d guess say 200 percent.

    The data does show an improving trend from some pretty awful numbers. Now perhaps that recent uptick relates to a release of DLC. But looking at the numbers I think there’s some seasonality in them. So, the recent uptick could be people having more time to play as they are on vacation (or more likely school holidays). That’s a problem with short term trends. May for example would suggest a drop of 40% or so since the first release. You also shouldn’t use that 30 day number. That will be very volatile depending on when you measure it (how many weekend days are included vs. the prior month). If we take the August 2018 number against the start date you’ve gained less than one user.

    You are completely correct that it doesn’t show console numbers that have to additive to the number of users. As there seem to lots of new posters on the board perhaps that’s going well. But we don’t have any data, nor I think will we ever have.

    So, on the PC side I think it’s difficult to make a case that things are going well. Perhaps that August tick up is the start of a more positive trend. Who knows? But a game that’s released (PC) that has the same number of users 18 months after release is a good story?

    Yes, it is going be a modified UE4 editor. But does that tell us the functionality? Modified could mean additional features, but it could also mean some blocked. How does the UE4 editor stack up to the current TS one?
     
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  21. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    You can download the current UE4 editor and see for yourself and get some practice.
     
  22. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro yes I could and I haven't. But I have done some reading around the UE4 engine and also posts on this forum by people who I think have experience in these things (Digital Draftsman, vR Maik and probably others I should have mentioned) suggest that it might be quite complex. To quote vR Maik 'What you get with UE4 editor is a massive toolset that you need to understand first before you start to build your first 1m of route for TSW. Most people, who just changed some bits in TS1 by dragging a tree or a building, will moan around about the complexity then'

    But who knows what interface or modifications DTG will put on the editor. As they aren't providing us any clues it'll be an interesting reveal for all of us. If your experience with UE4 to date has been good that's excellent.
     
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  23. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Firstly consider the number of people who owned TSW in the first month, it'll be a lot fewer than today. If you were to take the average number of players as a percentage of the total number of people who own TSW, you'll find that percentage to be a lot smaller today than on release. An example would be:

    1000 people own TSW in March 2017, 218 people on average were playing it at any given time. Therefore 21.8% of those who owned TSW were playing it at any given time.

    Now we're in August 2018 and RSN has been released. Perhaps 2000 people now own TSW. 224 people on average were playing it at any given time. Therefore 11.2% of those who owned TSW were playing it at any given time.

    RSN was just released for PC, so you can bet that the PC average player numbers will be beating the equivalent console numbers. Even if we say there is a 50/50 split between PC and console for TSW ownership, the percentage of TSW owners playing the game today would still be a lot less than on the release of HH, or GWE for that matter.

    If you read my earlier post (the one with the ETS2/TSW graph), you'll see that the reason I give for TSW to be dying is because the average number of players has almost dropped back to the level it was at before the release of RSN. All previous DLC retained enough players to remain higher than the previous low before the release of each DLC, therefore growth slowing. When looking at the numbers of TSxx players, there should be plenty of room for TSW to keep growing. A new game which superceeds the old one shouldn't be topping out with a 1/4 of the players of the game it's replacing. Maybe 75% of the TSxx players have moved to Xbox-One and PS4 and everything is great, but I doubt that very much, for the reasons outlined in my response to TrainSim-Luke above.
     
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  24. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Digital Draftsman I do wonder if buying a game, using it for a while and then almost discarding is perhaps a trend of contemporary gamers - and therefore different to what 'simmers'' are used to.

    With TS, since I bought it I've bought more DLC - and I now use it as much as I did - if not more - when I first started. I also bought Trainz and decided that TS was infinitely superior but that's it. In the past I had FSX and nothing more. So as simmers people focused more on one game - more of a hobby.

    These days when you look at Steam profiles people have hundreds of games. There isn't that same focus on a single game. Perhaps it gets used a lot to begin with, if it becomes a favorite it's continued to be used but there's not the same idea of 'I'm a train sim user'. Lots of games lie on the drive (or console) effectively forgotten, or perhaps a new piece of DLC gets some interest and is bought. Buyers aren't 'train simmers per se' they're shoot them up gamers, racers and role players as well.

    Of course there will be exceptions. Many of the new console players may become addicted to TSW and become long term users and add to the community.

    So perhaps we're mistaken to expect the usage trends to mimic what we expect to see, a sort of continual growth. Instead there's more turnover in and out of the game and for some people - even if they don't use the game a great deal - that's not a reflection that it's a
    bad buy'.

    That in turn might suggest more 'casual users', people who just want to jump into a train and drive it, or be the conductor and have no interest in an editor.

    Someone else posted that if DTG sell the game or a DLC that's the important metric to them. How much it is used is rather secondary.

    I still think the usage figures are poor and way below where they should be but perhaps there's a case that these days usage tends to be front loaded nearer the time of purchase, rather than remaining constant over time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
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  25. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Guest

    I had TS and I made many purchases like DLC.
    Now I made the decision that TS is too dated for me. So I switched to TSW. I bought the basic game + RT + RSN (also to support the project itself) but, now DTG, with its "mysteries" is really making me lose my patience.:mad:
     
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  26. SimonM719

    SimonM719 Member

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    How do we find out how many players are playing TSW with xbox and ps4? I know steam show PC users playing but do they list console too? Do consol users also download the game from steam? Sorry not used a Consol for 20 years lol
     
  27. xD 2Bad4You

    xD 2Bad4You Well-Known Member

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    Console´s are using their own Marketplace (PSN Store / Microsoft Store) to buy and download games from. So no its not counted into the Steam players.
    For Xbox there isnt a public way to tell how many people play a specific game. The developers should be able to access this data in their dashboard though as far as i know. But unlikely they are going to share those numbers.
    Not 100% sure for Playstation but probably the same, no public playercount for games.
     
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  28. Shukal

    Shukal Well-Known Member

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    I don't see that as an issue. Modding is very limited in games like Skyrim or Fallout 4 (from a much bigger game studio) on console too, so why should TSW be an exception. Also according to DTG a big part of the audience are casuals, who most likely don't use mods anyway. We also have repaints on PC now already, but not on consoles. If the console players that don't belong to this group
     
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  29. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Shukal I missed where DTG said that a big part of the audience are casual (I’d speculated it myself) but that’s interesting if they said that. I will admit to knowing nothing about the two titles you mention. If they have PC and console versions with different editor capabilities then it’s a good analogy.

    As DTG responded recently there’s no ‘favoritism’ between the console and PC versions and that in the future, for example, they’d like to make PC and console releases at the same time.

    I probably won’t be the only one who thinks that a PC version with an editor and a console one without are two very different games. One has way more functionality than the other. Now, I agree the casual user might not want it, but wouldn’t the difference in content suggest a price difference? Shouldn’t the console version be cheaper as it lacks an editor?

    The other thing around the console is even if console users can’t edit do they have any access to work that others, on the PC, are going to make available in say Workshop, and even then would it work on the console as it was ‘built’ for the PC? Now clever people than me might be able to explain that to me as to what is and what isn’t obvious and possible.

    But I come back to one of my earlier postings about DTG providing a road map. They’ve committed to an editor but shouldn’t by this point they have stated whether any, all or none of the features will be available on a console? DTG are keen to suggest that PC and consoles are equal for TSW but I have a sneaky suspicion that might not be something that will ultimately be deliverable.

    After all many console users might be ‘casual’ but at least some might want editor facilities. Before those people go too far down the road in buying TSW console content wouldn’t it be fair for DTG to open the kimono on what the future state will be?
     
  30. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    I just want to throw in that DTG said this in the July Studio Update:
     
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  31. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    MCGermanyFan that’s useful although ‘full content creation experience’ is a bit gobbledygook. It might have been easier to say ‘no editor functions will be available on the console’. You could argue that ‘full content’ suggests that some partial functionality might be there but I guess not.
     
  32. HybridAlien

    HybridAlien Member

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    Roadmap please
     
  33. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    From what others are saying in the console section, WSR has been released on console with all the bugs present in the PC version, plus a few extra ones (e.g. Class 47 cab sound bug.)

    It's one thing to release DLC and to subsequently discover bugs, and it's pretty poor to not fix those bugs on the existing version, but to knowingly release software on other platforms with those same bugs is appalling. If DTG continue down this path, fewer and fewer people will be purchasing TSW DLC.

    I also notice there have been many complaints from console users regarding the price of the DLC. If the price is high, the product needs be of a high quality. The console demographic has less disposable income on average than the PC demographic, which means DTG need to work even harder to get console players to hand over their money. Releasing a product full of the same bugs present on the PC version, which they had three months to fix, is not the way to increase sales in the console market.

    To top it off, the player numbers on the PC have now dipped below the level prior to RSN being released. This is the first time in TSW's life that the player numbers after a DLC release have returned to level lower than prior to that DLC's release. The bottom line is that we need the tools, even if it's just a scenario editor, ASAP if TSW has any chance of being a worthy sucessor to TSxx.

    tsw_post_rsn_player_numbers.jpg
     
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  34. Shukal

    Shukal Well-Known Member

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    There is no separate scenario editor, there's just the UE4 editor.
     
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  35. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't have to be based on the UE4 editor, it's perfectly possible to create a separate editor for the scenarios, especially if there are issues with getting a licence from Epic to distribute the UE4 editor.

    Even an equivalent to TS Quickdrive would be something, so at least people can use their traction and rolling stock across all their routes.
     
  36. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    DTG already confirmed that it is based on the Unreal Editor in their last Studio Update in July.
     
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  37. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Sorry if my post wasn't clear.

    What they use currently is, but it doesn't have to be. My point is that they need a scenario editor or the game is much more likely to fail. Thus, if Epic won't permit distribution of the altered UE4 Editor, DTG can create a scenario editor that doesn't require the UE4 Editor, or at least uses an unaltered version they can distribute. Even introducing a QuickDrive mode would be helpful and increase replayability.
     
  38. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Shukal yes, DTG have said that a modified UE4 editor would be provided. However, that’s been a ‘promise’ out there for a while so it’s perhaps not unreasonable to speculate that they are having some problem in meeting the commitment. Given the time that has passed, and DTG’s rather elusive answers it’s clearly not easy.

    I read @Digital Draftsman’s comment to suggest that DTG might want to provide at least a tool to support scenario editing (presumably through UE4), perhaps as an interim, if they’re not in a position to provide full editor capability (i.e. route building) at this time. In other words DTG if they want to improve the health in the PC usage side probably need to provide something. Soon. New route DLCs, at least on the PC side, aren’t boosting usage like you might expect. Therefore they might want to adjust their priorities/resourcing.

    Although that wouldn’t make everyone happy on the PC side I guess that most would see a step like that as progress.
     
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  39. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It will be one editor that does everything.
     
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  40. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    DTG already confirmed that what Anthony said. There is now no point in discussing anything about what program the editor will use at all.
     
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  41. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I just love the fact some are always crying impending doom. I am sure that makes all new comers feel extremely satisfied with their purchases.
    Give it a rest - no matter what and how strongly we discuss concerns in these forums will change the outcome one way or another. An editor is in the works - when it will be released won't be influenced by the "sky is falling" threads. DTG will release it when they feel it is ready. When it is released it may or may not have any immediate affect.

    The quality of the DLC being released will have a bigger impact and gauging from the last two releases for the PC, DTG is on the right track. If/when they release the promised fixes for the diesel electrics for Heavy Haul will also have an affect. But incessant cries of doom and failing - no matter how well intentioned, help little other than sow fear and doubt.
     
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  42. SD40Australia-Daniel

    SD40Australia-Daniel Member

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    The amount of work that it took to make TSW what it is is considerably more than Railworks 10 years ago.

    I guess some of these conspiracy theorists believe a space vehicle with new technology can be built in 10 days and they can fly to the moon for $15.

    To me it looks like the editor for TSW will be huge. That is why DTG are saying we should spend time with Unread 4 editor to get familiar with it, if you wish to build routes or models/rollingstock, etc.

    Can models be built in the Unreal editor? Or do we still need Blender?

    I am waiting for the physics updates, especially for the Sand Patch route. But to bring out such a finely polished route was brilliant, yet many negative people could not appreciate it.

    I have one bit of advice for those that continue to whine and whinge. Make your own Train Simulator product, or shut up.

    Yes we would like to hear how to make it better, but if you cannot accept the way things are then maybe you need to change your attitude.

    A bunch of entitlement attitudes produce this sort of negative distortion which really can be far better placed in developing your own products. Especially since you think TSW is going to stop. Might as well leave now if you think it is going to be cancelled and leave us in peace. Can you? It might be a great way to solve your problem. You will no longer have to worry about TSW and you can find new greener pastures elsewhere. So how about it?

    There are some forums (not here) which can massage your grievances about TSW and you can have your itching ears scratched there.

    Hopefully you can move on and find something positive in life to achieve.

    SD40Australia
     
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  43. TrainSim-Luke

    TrainSim-Luke Well-Known Member

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    The Unreal Editor does not have a specialist 3D editor built into it. While it can create basic primitives and has a really excellent PBR material creator, you will still need to use 3D modelling software, like Blender, to create the intricate, detailed meshes that you'd want for a new locomotive.
    Fortunately, it's very easy to get a model from your chosen modelling software into Unreal as it takes .FBX and .OBJ, very widespread formats :)
     
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  44. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    In addition to what Luke said above, there's also the UE4 Marketplace, where you can purchase UE4 ready assets like trees/buildings/cars etc for use in your route.
     
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  45. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Well-Known Member

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    I first want to say that any of my comments made about my disappointment with DTG or their products is not to bash them or hope to cause them harm, I want TSW/TSxx and DTG to succeed, and their products to be the best they can. I have always attempted to make my comments as constructive as I can, but perhaps out of frustration at times they have not been. And I bring up the problems I see because often times if nobody says anything, nothing will ever get fixed.

    That being said I think your comments aren't fair to those of us who have been urging DTG to get these problems fixed.

    I have never claimed to have the ability to make my own simulator, nor do I want to try. I realize it is a difficult thing to do, I've never denied that, I can't imagine the work and skill needed for it. That is exactly why I had no problem paying the price for the simulator, with the expectation that it was a finished product, ready to go.

    What I HAVE said many times is we are tired of seeing,

    DLC after DLC come out with VERY LITTLE to NO bug fixes, the ratio of resources spent on making new DLC compared to the resources spent on fixing bugs is way out of proportion, not just on TSW but also TSxx, at least that is how it seems from a customer perspective. If this isn't true then DTG would be smart to be a lot more open about this.

    VERY LITTLE acknowledgement of the bugs from the staff, communication has been and continues to be quite poor.

    Paying full price for a product that was advertised as finished and ready to go with SO MANY glaring obvious problems. Things like the inside of the cab not going dark when going through a tunnel. None of the staff members noticed this before release? And there are many other major problems, not just small bugs. I realize there will always be bugs, nothing is ever perfect, but major flaws? It would be like a new model of car coming out and none of the headlights work which you discover the first time you drive the car at night. And then almost 2 years later the company still has no fix? And this is just one example, the others have been well documented and discussed on this forum.

    This is a product that is not supposed to be just entertainment, it is supposed to be a simulation of reality, and such glaring obvious errors of reality really ruin the experience. If the level of quality control is going to continue to let such things slide by then perhaps it should just be called a train driving game, not a simulator. I would have gladly paid more for the game if it had accurate physics and didn't have so many bugs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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  46. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    This is a very poor argument and using such arguements undermines other valid points you may have. You're saying that if I was to go into a store and buy some eggs and one was rotten, then I should either, buy a chicken, build a chicken coop and produce my own eggs or 'shut up.' No, you go to the store and expect them to put things right.

    I bought Rapid Transit on the basis that it would have accurate signalling, but it didn't, despite being advertised to the contrary. It's not unreasonable for me to expect DTG to correct the signalling. DTG have said it's too difficult to correct the signalling, but if that is the case there should be the option to return the DLC for a full refund, retaining the DLC and receiving a partial refund or receiving a discount on a future DLC. There should at least be some attempt to make things right with their customers.

    But what's more, the RT store page still advertises 'Navigating the busy S-Bahn will require you to master the layout of the route and the functions and systems of your train as well as Deutsche Bahn’s unique signalling system.' The signalling system doesn't work correctly, so it cannot be mastered. On RSN the PZB is much better, so if someone has purchased RSN before RT, they will purchase RT assuming the PZB will work the same way as it does in RSN. There should be something on the Steam Store page to say that the PZB doesn't function correctly and it will not be corrected.

    It's this sort of behaviour that will cause TSW to fail. I haven't bought RSN and I won't until RT is fixed or has been made right. Plenty of others have stopped buying DLC because previous DLC hasn't been fixed. Not fixing bugs may save money in the short term, but in the long term it's very costly.

    I point out these errors and failings, or 'whine and whinge' as you put it, because I want TSW to succeed. I can see DTG's business practices leading to the failure of TSW and I really don't want that to happen, because I love train simming and I'm excited to develop content for TSW in the same way I have done for Train Simulator over the past 10 years.
     
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  47. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Well-Known Member

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    I think you have summed up what I'm also trying to say quite well.

    I used to buy quite a bit of DLC on a regular basis. Since the release of TSW I have bought 2, the GP40 locomotive for TSW, mostly because I wanted some more scenarios to run, the loco itself isn't much different from the GP-38 but I knew that going in. And I've bought the Raton Pass route because I've always like this route in real life, was something I really wanted. Other than these 2 I have really pretty much stopped buying anything from DTG because I'm frustrated with how they have been running things lately, and I don't think I'm the only one.

    I seem to remember a post made a while back showing where DTG is now owned or controlled by a larger company, and maybe their hands are tied with all of this, and this is as good as it will get. I hope that isn't the case and they can turn things around. I really enjoy running the simulator when it is working well. I really would have loved to be an engineer in real life, but I'm blind in one eye, and the federal rules will never allow me to do it, so this is as close as I'll ever get!
     
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  48. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I’ve been away from these forums for some months, as I’ve been mainly playing TS2018 / 2019 which is really excellent. I’ve not had TSW installed for a long time but recently had a nostalgic pang for some reason so downloaded it again and had a crack at a GWR scenario. Literally 5 minutes later I’d turned it off and was back in Train Sim. Months on from when I last played it absolutely nothing has changed.

    Reading this thread then spurred me to take a look at the XBOX & PS4 forums to see what the general consensus was. I can only assume that many of those defending TSW and pointing to console growth as the saviour haven’t done the same. The feeling is overwhelmingly negative. All the same complaints, unfinished, dead environment, bug ridden and poor and outdated graphics. The PC market hasn’t stood for it, and nor will the far more fickle console market. There are far too many ‘good’ games out there as competition.

    Yes consoles aren’t as powerful as the most hi-spec gaming PCs but anyone who has used one knows that they ought to be able to run TSW in their sleep. What they’ve actually ended up with is a port of a shoddily coded and poorly optimised PC game. I still don’t know how they could, in all good consciousness, release something into a new marketplace that they absolutely knew was bugged to hell from the avalanche of feedback from the PC market, but then sell it with a straight face.

    DTG are in a very weird position right now imho. I honestly think they’ve completely screwed it when it comes to TSW. It could have been the next big thing, and they could and should have made it so good that they carried every TS User with them from day 1. Instead of learning lessons from Train Sim, they’ve simply repeated each and every single mistake made there, and then hidden behind the excuse of not knowing how to get the most out of the game engine that they trumpeted as the best platform for the future. If the engine isn’t suitable, then you shouldn’t have picked it!

    You can defend TSW all you want but when you really look at it objectively, it just isn’t very good. It’s niche, and will have shifted units on that basis, but it just doesn’t stand up in a what is a very competitive market. As far as the PC goes, they already have a fantastic product in TS20XX into which they’ve just injected a massive shot of adrenaline.

    Sad as it is to say, I think they need to change the people at the top of the TSW tree. They need a fresh set of eyes and ideas as the ideology is wrong, and people are not prepared to put up with slow development and broken, bugged and shoddy content. They didn’t start from scratch with TSW, they had years and years of experience of TS20XX to fall back on but somehow still messed it up. I will no longer pay to keep TSW afloat whilst they figure out how to use UE4. On the other hand, release new TS2019 routes that exploit 64 bit and I’ll pre-order them in a heartbeat. I’m full of praise for what DTG have done with making TS 64bit, it really is excellent and they deserve huge credit for having done it. It’s a real shame you can’t say the same about TSW.

    Agree with my point of view or not, we all want it to be awesome. As it stands, can we say with 100% certainty it’ll still be here in 2 years time? Sadly, I’m really not so sure.

    ps Relentlessly downvoting Digital Draftsman (and others) for daring to express a considered and well informed opinion is pretty sketchy. You might not like the message, but it doesn’t mean he’s not right....
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  49. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Guest

    Well, then yuo can continue quietly playing TS19....
     
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  50. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    You can’t really deny, it has been pretty disappointing of how slow things have been progressing for Train Sim World. There have been no new features in TSW since release (no PA or CIS for example), the achievements are completely useless and bugged out and there are still bugs which aren’t fixed which have been there since day one.

    The lack of available content and routes due to no third party input or community help being available is a big disadvantage too. This leads on to another thing, the lack of AI traffic and variety has always been a problem in TSW, no matter how busy the route. After playing TS and coming to TSW the world just seems so dead.

    Now I know people will defend TSW no matter what but it does have its flaws and this is why I believe, based on my own opinion, TS 64 is the better Train Simulator for the time being. *Until TSW can reach the level of available content, routes and variety.
     
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