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The End Of Tsw?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Digital Draftsman, Aug 28, 2018.

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  1. KTL_Rob Powell

    KTL_Rob Powell New Member

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    Poor and outdated graphics.... Every time I hear that I laugh, then die a little inside.. Honestly if these graphics are considered poor and outdated I'm done with the TSW community because I can't be dealing with such utter tripe
     
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  2. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    You’re perfectly entitled to that opinion but assuming you’ve played other 2017 & 2018 games releases you must be aware of exactly what both modern consoles and PCs have been demonstrated to be capable of?

    I would suggest scenery filling in & popping up in front of you, shadows no more than a few feet in front of the train, motion blur that doesn’t work, stuttering, countless graphical glitches (shimmering trains etc), missing features like PIS & destination boards, lack of tunnel occlusions, issues with brightness (is that enough yet?) counts as poor graphics.

    Particularly in the console market, TSW has to compete against a variety of seriously good games with a consumer base that in all likelihood have less disposable income and are more fickle than the PC. If you’re happy with it then so be it. Plenty of other developers have shown that modern systems are capable of far more.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  3. KTL_Rob Powell

    KTL_Rob Powell New Member

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    Urr no sir, those are considered limitations of the engine as it stands. TSW is doing something that Unreal 4 wasn't designed for. DTG liaise with Epic regarding various things (that's why the editor has taken so long as it is bespoke and based upon epics own editor with a raft of additional things.)

    This game actually stretches Unreal more than most titles using Unreal, is more advanced and is basically utilizing the entire framework available to it. You are trying to compare apples with oranges with no idea of the back end differences..
     
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  4. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    But that’s my point, the end user couldn’t care less. Have a look at the console forums.

    It also brings me back to my point that if UE4 is this limiting, in graphics, performance and particularly audio, then why pick it?
     
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  5. KTL_Rob Powell

    KTL_Rob Powell New Member

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    Because building a new engine from scratch was cost prohibitive and at the time TSW went in to development, no other engine was suitable to do the job. (Heck, unity still didn't have a working, stable 64 bit engine for Windows when TSW development started some years before HH was released)
     
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  6. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    We’re all coming from the same place, we all want TSW to be successful and exploit its undoubted potential. It would appear that we’ll have to agree to disagree about how we think DTG are going to get there.
     
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  7. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    About the broken signaling in RT. It’s not that it’s too difficult for DTG to fix it, it’s that they don’t have time to do it as it requires re-signaling the whole route all over again.

    The graphics are not poor, there are times where screenshots have looked like actual photos.
     
  8. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Screenshots yes. Popping etc no.
     
  9. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    You can fix that you know!
     
  10. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Not on xbox etc you know.
     
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  11. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    And this is where we’ll have agree to disagree. I think it is completely unacceptable to have released it in that state, acknowledge its broken and do nothing to mend it. As has been pointed out, it’s been sold under false pretences at the minute as a fully working signalling system is one of the suggested reasons to buy it.

    If you’re ok with that then fine. I’m not.
     
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  12. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    And not the chairs on the track in wsr.. even on pc engine.ini fixes do nothing. That was my last purchase sadly. Just havent trusted the product.
     
  13. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    'Considered limitations of the engine as it stands' by whom? DTG? I have a good idea of back end differences and the issues are not with UE4, they are issues with optimization in all areas of the game.

    The PC version isn't especially well optimized, but on the consoles it's even worse due to the hardware limitations. For the most part the issues are caused by DTG rushing. An example of something simple that would hugely help consoles would be 2D track, like some track types found in TS20xx, where the sleepers are textured onto the ballast loft, and with a bump map the track would still look pretty good. Nothing in UE4 inhibits the creation of 2D track, yet DTG use 3D track everywhere, which is really expensive to render and the reason why the sleepers pop into existance a few feet in front of the train.

    DTG are rushing to get each DLC onto the consoles without taking the time properly optimized them for the hardware. Blaming the UE4 engine is a cop-out.
     
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  14. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    RSN runs well.
     
  15. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I don’t own it, so please correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I’ve seen of it on YouTube it is still absolutely dead and lifeless.

    TS2019 is a matter of days away from being able to do a full run from Kings Cross to Edinburgh (if that’s you’re thing...but it will do it) with prototypical AI thanks to DTG having the guts to make it 64bit, the community & third parties. TSW can’t even get close to that on a 40 mile route but is meant to be the ‘next generation’.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  16. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I was referring to the FPS.
     
  17. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Well-Known Member

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    Saying that you just don't have time to fix something which is not working properly that you sold to a customer as a finished working product is pretty much the perfect way to put yourself out of business. I run my own business and deal with multiple customers on a daily basis, I've been doing this for over 20 years, so not trying to brag but I do know a little something about taking care of customers.

    Maybe I'm just old fashioned and have higher expectations and the younger generations are willing to accept more nonsense like this, but I am continued to be amazed at the ones who just find this acceptable and even defend DTG for treating its customers so poorly. I'm pretty sure I'm older than most others here.

    Also I'm pretty sure I've never complained about the graphics, although it has been disappointing to see the graphics slowly get worse since release just to improve the frame rate. However graphics aren't the most important part to me, what I appreciate is a realistic simulation with a lot of challenge and variety. That is why I run TSxx probably 95% of the time compared to TSW. Not that I don't also have my frustrations with TSxx, but overall it is far superior.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  18. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you understood my post.

    One of the reasons it runs well is because the sleepers are only being rendered a few feet in front of the train, which is why the track seems to pop into existance, something which many people find spoils their enjoyment of the game. If DTG created a nice looking 2D track for console versions of the routes, the game would run well and there wouldn't be an issue with the track popping into existance a few feet in front of the train, win/win. If they futher optimized it, they made be able to add more AI traffic, people, cars etc to breathe a bit more life into it.
     
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  19. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    But the FPS is ok because the route is devoid of any life. Tell me I’m wrong.
     
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  20. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    You can increase the draw distance.
     
  21. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    RSN is a very beautiful route, with lots of places to explore on foot.
     
  22. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    That’s not the point I’m making, and you know it.

    Also, i’m not buying a train sim to walk around on foot and ‘explore’
     
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  23. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    At the expense of fps and no you cant on xbox etc
     
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  24. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

  25. KTL_Rob Powell

    KTL_Rob Powell New Member

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    Is not fixing perceived bugs acceptable from a consumer point of view? Of course not. That is one of the genuine gripes people have with TSW/DTG and as a consumer is a valid reason to be upset/frustrated/angry etc.

    Is fixing bugs an efficient use of finite time, manpower resources and money from a corporate standpoint? Only DTG corporate can answer that question and I highly doubt they ever will.

    So, I came across as a 'fanboy' in my initial postings in this thread, and in some ways I am, but I'm not an apologist. I just wish people would focus their anger on the genuine issues that exist (bugs, performance/optimisation etc) rather than coming up with complete and utter nonsense or trivial issues.

    Honestly what we need is better communication regarding raised issues and acknowledgement of them. Not everyone uses steam or these forums, though both are effective means of communicating such things.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  26. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It doesn’t hurt FPS very much.
     
  27. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

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    Hi folks!
    Just to clear up misconceptions:
    Puffing Nora Yes, but up to 7x you really don't see a serious dip in framerate? At least I don't please correct me if you do.
    hightower I think most of us would agree that RSN beats all DLC's besides GWE and perhaps comes in tied with NEC? I.m.o. it's very good.
    Anthony Pecoraro Ooooh signalling on RT... don't get me started. But this is purely DTG's fault, and not on behalf of UE4.
    KTL_Rob Powell I feel like we definitely can't say that TSW has 'bad' graphics - it's not true. However, it does have sub-par graphics compared to modern games on the market. It doesn't take a genius to see that TSW has the best graphics of all train-simulation software out there though.
    hightower Oooh long-short routes is a good debate. I personally prefer shorter routes, to be honest. And yes, TSXX is very good at long distance runs, but one sacrifices graphics for that.
    I personally don't know if TSW will die. I hope not, but I don't have a conclusive position here.
     
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  28. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    No misconceptions here 'professor'. The graphics are not optimised well. Its self evident.
     
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  29. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    The point is that this user based fix affects fps at all is the issue.. and that its even necessary to insert fixes in the way that is necessary. Let alone the poor folk on console who cant do this and who have been sold something that has popping scenery to the extent this has. You can call it what you will. Wallets will tell..
     
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  30. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Well-Known Member

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    I just wanted to also add that I voice my disappointment with DTG on the signal problems with RT as someone who has no interest in this route at all. Personally I would benefit more from DTG spending their time with American routes and fixing the problems there, but I would still rather see DTG do the right thing. They either should fix the problem, offer a refund, or at the least offer a coupon towards a future purchase for those who bought that route. That would go a long way towards keeping customers happy.
     
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  31. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Rapid Transit could get fixed by a third party.
     
  32. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    As this is a simulation, I personally thing the main priority and most important things here is to get the physics, sounds and simulation correct or as near to as real-life you can get them. Everything else can wait in my opinion.

    Now, I know there is a Diesel-Electric Simugraph update coming out for selected DLC but ideally this should've been correct from day one. Though at least we are getting a free update for it.

    My second point is sounds. This is something DTG has always struggled with in both TS and TSW. There's no doubt that the stock sounds which they supply with their products are, quite simply, a bit rubbish. In fact you often get recycled, inaccurate sounds from previous DLC passed over to new DLC which was the case in TS for many different DLC's.

    Armstrong Powerhouse, who are a third party company to TS, supply sound and enhancement packs. They say everything DTG should be doing; 'Trains that sound, look and feel like the real thing.'

    As TSW offers you a lot more flexibility to be able to walk around the train, both inside and out. I was very disappointed to hear that in some cases, there are sounds which are completely missing which ruins the experience. Being able to walk through or sit down wherever you want in a train to find there are no sounds is a very big turnoff.

    Train Sim World: Graphics, Ablility to Explore, Flexibility
    Train Simulator: Sounds, Simulation, Physics, Longer Routes
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  33. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Indeed. Not sure in what format this might come though. I cant imagine anyone paying for the same thing twice. What have you got in mind?
     
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  34. xD 2Bad4You

    xD 2Bad4You Well-Known Member

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    There are some points here where i can agree and some where i disagree.
    As a Console user i´m in general happy that we got TSW, since there isnt anything else in that niche available.

    But an official Statement like the one about RT isnt acceptable. We all make mistakes at work and might get something out to a customer that isnt working like expected in some areas. But it needs to be corrected asap, and you cant say something like: We dont have the resources to do that.
    And it shouldnt be the case that a 3rd party fixes the problems as some suggested. Plus thats something that might would work on PC, but not on Console. Its up to DTG and they need to step up on that. Same with the issues in NEC and other routes.

    In my opinion they missed an opportunity when they ported TSW over to Consoles. They had to go back to every route to port and optimize it. They should have looked at the bug reports and fixed as many issues that PC people reported as possible.
    This would have lead to a more bug free release for Consoles and releasing those fixes to PC alongside the Console Version of each route would have caused less backfire. Instead they ported everything reported just over and have to go back to each route another time to actually fix the bugs.

    The graphics of the Console version need some optimization for sure. I can get my enjoyment out of TSW but less popping objects and higher in cab textures would be nice so that i can actually read how fast i´m driving and such stuff. Framerate is pretty unstable aswell and drops very low for short times in some cases without much going on. But i also have to say that it improved already a lot from the first version they released and i´m optimistic that it can be improved further.

    Overall the pace of bug fixes / optimization updates could be faster.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  35. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    Well let's see:
    • There's no editor or sdk currently available to third parties. DTG hope to release a beta sometime this year but haven't guaranteed it. Even if there is a beta there almost certainly will be no time for a general release this year.
    • Rapid Transit (RT) belongs to DTG and therefore all rights and income belong to DTG.
    • Assuming some third party gets access to RT and fixes the signalling what recompense will they receive anything for their time and effort? The third party can hardly release it/sell it without DTG's agreement.
    • If the signalling is fixed by a third party and DTG have paid them something for their work then how likely is it that DTG will then update the version currently installed by users on PC, PS4 & Xbox for free? Maybe.
    Frankly the only way a third party is likely to fix RT is if DTG have contracted them to do it. The most likely reason(s) why that hasn't occurred yet is likely a) nobody other than DTG has teh skill and experience to do it or b) DTG are unwilling to pay for it. Now it's possible that DTG intend to get the signalling person to work on RT bit by bit inbetween working on other DLC but if so it's unlikely it will be finished anytime before 2020.
     
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  36. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Im intrigued by the notion of 2D track graphics etc that have been promulgated here. Is it even possible to simply replace a texture pack like that in WSR for example?
     
  37. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Further thought- and with editor would it be possible for some gifted individual to make such a texture that we could insert? Seamless textures make for immersive experiences. They dont have to be amazing as many games have shown.
     
  38. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Many of the sounds in TSW are quite good. However, things will get better once UE4 gets an updated audio engine.
     
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  39. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

  40. SD40Australia-Daniel

    SD40Australia-Daniel Member

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    Thanks Train Sim Luke. :)

    Many of the comments here (in this thread) are extremely unjustified.

    TSW is truly amazing and I think it is very sad that the people that dare post these comments do not appreciate the workload involved to produce such level of detail.

    I seriously do not know what they expect.

    As I said before, they would whinge if they had to pay more for a trip to the moon for one cent more than $15! And then they would whinge about the trip being boring.

    Why they spend their time whining in here I don't know, but it does suggest one thing to me. Boredom. Instead of being an anti-TSW keyboard warrior, go find something productive to do. I won't say go drive a train because these people don't sound too interested in that. If they were, they wouldn't be here. :cool:

    SD40Australia-Daniel
     
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  41. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Ummm I have just spent all day being productive, to the tune of 75k gbp pa.
    Im "whining" (some would say raising a legit customer complaint) here because the popping scenery is not acceptable.
    You don't like that, go and play on the game that you find so flawless. I'd like to as a de-stressor, but its not very immersive having scenery popping, a dead world, passengers lined up on the station like some kind of honour guard with their backs to the train, faulty traction models etc etc.
    Nuff said I think..
     
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  42. SD40Australia-Daniel

    SD40Australia-Daniel Member

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    The thing with which we both disagree on is that the egg is broken. It is not. Until you can realize that TSW actually works on a medium performance PC, maybe you would go try it. Or do you have an XP PC with no ability to try TSW?

    If DTG were to take your advice they would have failed long ago, but lo and behold, they have not and will not be! You don't see the big picture.

    When Railworks first came on the scene there were many grievances with that as well. There was no super elevation, and a host of other things that needed to be fixed, and were. The physics as well. It keeps getting better.

    As a real world Locomotive Engineer/Driver etc I can honestly say the production of software by DTG is not only ground breaking, but is appreciated. It feels real, yet may not be perfect (only you can expect perfection in heaven my friend), and it's a very positive way to relax. There is no violence or darkness in the game, it is a boy's fantasy come true!

    And, rather than whine about it, why don't you post a bug report for the faults you have found. But as I said to Trainsim Luke, people like you must be bored if you feel the need to come here and knock something like this.

    The items you raise about PZB and signalling of the German Leipzig Halle route have already been addressed officially by DTG, so as I said, like it or lump it, you will have to accept it. Otherwise every time you come here to post we should play a video with sad violin music, because that seems to be your whole personality.

    Let's just stop discussing negative things and start being positive. Water under the bridge. Move on. How about it?

    SD40Australia-Daniel
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  43. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

  44. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    You should accept that you are limited on consoles.
     
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  45. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Guest

    I also consider TSW a great project. However, DTG is a company that has to account to users who have spent their money on this project. Currently it is DTG that fails to meet the (justified) expectations of users. I'm sorry but the project is proceeding too slowly. It's exasperating.
    Everyone remembers the words of DTG four years ago: "we are starting a new railway simulation project with the fantastic Unreal engine ...". Well, then try to finish this project!
     
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  46. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    That isn’t necessarily true nor is there any evidence TSW will update to the newer versions of UE4. In fact it uses version 4.16 with snippets from newer versions. I understand updating to the latest version can break things in the game.

    However, no matter what version of the UE4 engine you use, it’s your main source (recordings) which have to be good quality with plenty of interior and exterior recordings being made, and then there’s implementing them correctly and accurately into the game.
     
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  47. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    We're gonna sell you this but it wont work properly because of limitations..

    Yeah good one... with your ethics you'll go far.
     
  48. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

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    Puffing Nora oh well
    My work is done here.

    See you later, student.
     
  49. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    touched a nerve I see..
     
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  50. SD40Australia-Daniel

    SD40Australia-Daniel Member

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    Eight paragraphs of whining and all you can come up with is the cab lighting issue?

    If this really upsets you then maybe you can find walking can be a better alternative? Fresh air......

    SD40Australia-Daniel
     
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