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The End Of Tsw?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Digital Draftsman, Aug 28, 2018.

  1. Alex01

    Alex01 Active Member

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    can DTG just close this argument no hate im just asking so plz dont down vote me
     
    Alex01
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  2. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    The thing which disappoints me the most about this company is that they have complete disregard for their previous DLCs, which clearly has problems that need fixing, to be left in the dark.

    I find the excuse of ‘not having enough time to fix the bugs’ quite poor and makes the company look like they do not care about their customers.

    The root problem starts right at the top with management. They force DLCs which have not been fully completed to be released in an unfinished manner, and the cycle is repeated.

    I know a lot of people would rather wait a bit longer for a DLC to be finalised, than to have one which has been rushed and full of bugs. Which then it’ll take several months, if not over a year, for these bugs to be fixed.
     
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  3. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Member

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    Start downloading on your PC Epic Launcher ...;)
     
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  4. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    They do care about bug fixes. The editor is planned to come to an open beta this year. So don’t dare say that it isn’t coming.
     
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  5. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    I'm in the league of people who understands that software is ALWAYS buggy but I'm not sure I've ever seen a developer of any game genre go to such great lengths to preserve this degree of imperfection. Go into a tunnel in HH... sound the horn. Go into free view for about 5 minutes and try to get back into the cab- not to mention the growing list of other documented glitches.

    Like almost everyone else in here other than the obvious DTG fanboys all the entire community wants is a consistent display of bug-mashing. Nobody wants everything fixed tomorrow, and nobody wants it left completely alone- but most want to be reassured that this stuff is going to get fixed and from what I'm reading there is 0 confidence that this will be done.

    Even the resident fanboy attests that "Maybe they'll be fixed in the future." The guy who is willing to throw his virtual body in front of every written bullet this community can fire at DTG isn't even sure they'll ever be fixed so it's not hard to imagine how the rest of us feel about it.

    I'm still pretty new around here and I'm not as familiar with the ins and outs as some of the senior folks but one thing I will say based on my experience in TSW so far is that the community has absolutely 0 faith in DTG cleaning up past titles. Their community rep even comes in to argue semantics on financials and uses the same buggy DLCs that have come out since March as justification for how "things are probably better now."

    It's just THAT MUCH MORE buggy content that is out in the world that will not get fixed... That many more people who bought into the content who will be disappointed and broadcasting that disappointment from the proverbial rooftops. That many more people who will be hesitant to buy future content because of growing distrust. That many more people who are going to actively discourage others from buying content.

    And you're going to have that one person that is going to say that everything might be fine and try to bury the acres of negativity under a moist toilette... And look ridiculous while doing it since the perspective is so contrary to literally everything else.
     
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  6. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    "The guy who is willing to throw his virtual body in front of every written bullet this community can fire"

    Brilliant!
     
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  7. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    I really don't agree with this part of your post. Firstly DTG have already posted a couple of articles showing the editor and answering some questions about it although I'm a bit nervous that some of the initial restrictions will turn out to be permanent restrictions. Secondly the slow pace of DLC releases is because only DTG can currently produce DLC. I fully believe that it's in DTG's financial interest for 3rd parties to produce commercial DLC as they'll get a cut of their sales as well as driving interest in TSW. In addition I believe there may a bit more resource available to bug fix and implement some of the missing content such as PIS once DTG doesn't have to produce all the new DLC.
     
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  8. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree. The best use of the written word I’ve seen in a very long time!
     
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  9. AlexNL

    AlexNL Active Member

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    Will we get a video tour when you're all settled? ;)
     
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  10. John Murphy

    John Murphy Active Member

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    Fanboys are right! Too many people here think that DTG can do no wrong. Get real and see the obvious. Have any routes in the past been fixed on either TS or TSW? Maybe minor fixes, but nothing major that will fix the route and make it worth the money. And a lot of times when you complain about a bug or the game crashing, both people on this forum and even DTG themselves jump straight to blaming your PC. "Buy a better machine." DTG has even said this kind of thing to me in the past even after sending them a DxDiag showing my machine's specs.

    One thing about me is that I am also a huge fan of Trainz. I've been playing Trainz since 2006 and I've always loved it. People on this site never say anything good about Trainz. But I'm not like "Oh, Trainz is perfect! Auran can do no wrong! They're gonna fix everything and make it the perfect train sim eventually!" Actually, I often agree with them. As much as I love the game, Trainz is still a buggy mess. I understand if some people love TS and TSW and that's okay. I love these games too. But face the facts that they are a complete mess and that DTG is a shady company.

    I'll probably wind up buying the new LIRR route, but I'll wait and see how bad the bugs and other problems are first, to see wether it's still worth the money or not. Don't ever plan on anything major getting fixed. In DTG's eyes, a major update consists of menu changes and adding new language support.

    (And TSW crashes on me as I type this. Lol.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
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  11. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Seems the Autumn update did fix some problems with old DLC - revamped the Diesel-Electric traction on some of the routes - so the "complete" disregard is a bit over-reaching. Not all things have been fixed obviously and never in the time frame all want - but to be honest, it never will be for some.

    My question for all the nay-sayers that are predicting doom and all, why are you still hanging around? If it is as bad as many put forth in these discussions, why continue torturing yourself playing a simulation you obviously don't enjoy and see no future in?

    Sorry, for my questions, but have been a avid user of TS201X since 2012 (well over 4000 hours) and it is all the same in the forums now as it was when I started - many very vocally predicting doom, stating they refuse to buy any more DLC and the company will dry up and blow away in a quarter or two - but yet DTG is still kicking.

    Anyway - been away from the forums for a month or so as I was traveling on the continent, come back and good to see not much has changed :).
     
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  12. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    One it puts pressure on DTG to take responsibility for the products they ship broken. Two it informs new users about the poor quality of DTG's products. For example, if people read RT's Steam page they will get the impression that the PZB works, if they read the forum they'll be made aware that the PZB is broken with no plans to fix it.

    I never predicted doom for TS2012, or Rail Simulator and Railworks for that matter, quite the opposite. The game was launched with a full suite of tools and with the flexibility to allow users to make the most of the content they purchased. Sure, it wasn't perfect, but the tools were there for the community to develop the game. I was involved in the development of some of the earliest Railworks DLC on Steam and saw it as a great opportunity to contribute to the future of train simming. I quickly realised that MSTS was going to be superceeded by Rail Simulator and did what I could to help bring success.

    I've spent over decade developing content for Train Simulator, it's something I'm extremely passionate about. So I get frustrated when I see the best chance for a new generation of train simulation being driven into the ground through mismanagement and greed. The really frustrating thing is that I watched this happen to another community, the Flight Sim World community, and there were people in that community who acted as though DTG were doing their best and that FSW would be a success. Only FSW was canned, and DTG right up to the last moment kept proclaiming it was the future and everything was going great, buy the DLC, it's the future; All the while they knew the project was going to be scrapped.

    A year or two down the line and TSW may well be gone, consigned to the same place as Flight Sim World, but I'll still be here, along with others who have a passion for this hobby, train simming, developing and supporting the next simulator to take over the reins from TS20xx. Perhaps I'll get a team together and start developing a new train simulator, who knows. The only reason I get frustrated is because I care.
     
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  13. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    People are in here nay saying because they're hoping that at some point DFG is going to get the message. People get incredibly vocal when they feel as if their loyalty and patience is being flagrantly disrespected which, in this case, it absolutely is.

    You should be glad that the people who are upset hang around to bring it up over and over again since it's this vocal minority who hopes to be heard and responded to. This can influence action... sometimes. But doing nothing ALWAYS results in nothing.

    Granted, the negativity can get tiresome and a balance is needed... but buggy, unfinished software is also tiresome and balance is needed.

    There are probably some people with unrealistic expectations... however people complaining about buggy DLC and no consistent record of bug fixing have valid concerns.

    I'd be more concerned if nobody complained.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
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  14. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Active Member

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    I strongly agree with the last 2 posts. Any criticism I've expressed with either TSxx or TSW was done in the hope of making a better product, I've always tried to be positive, perhaps not always succeeding.

    I don't think I've ever asked for anything unreasonable, just for more attention to fixing the problems than what is currently done. And for better communication from DTG.
     
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  15. AlexNL

    AlexNL Active Member

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    In one of your earlier posts, you dissected DTG's annual results and mentioned their cash status. You said that DTG had about enough cash in house to keep the company going for six weeks. Later on, it was mentioned that those accounts were made up until March 31st, 2018.

    The cancellation of Flight Sim World was announced on April 23rd, and if my memory serves me correctly, I read on these forums that the entire FSW development team had been let go when the game was cancelled.

    Adding one and one together, it would not surprise me if the decision to abandon the FSW project was taken after the fiscal year was closed and DTG had to act to safeguard the company as a whole.

    If my assumptions here are correct, everything has happened very fast and the FSW devs and community manager did not know long beforehand that their project was getting cancelled. It wouldn't surprise me if they were informed on April 22nd.
     
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  16. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    What you're saying is likely correct. But I take issue with those who cite DTG's words as reassurance TSW has a good future. My point is that when DTG say 'everything is better, the tools are coming and TSW has a bright future,' those are not words of any value because they said the samething about FSW. So if TSW is struggling, we won't know about it until the day it's cancelled, and in the mean time DTG will act as though everything is fine.

    I don't know what the situation is behind the scenes, but I have to decide whether I build a collection of DLC like I have done with TS20xx, my decision has to be based on the most recent data I have and last years financials are the most recent data.
     
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  17. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Saying that a company only has cash cover for six weeks doesn’t suggest that they are only going to survive for six weeks. In the normal course of business there will always be cash coming in. However, six weeks is an extraordinarily low amount of cash cover for a company, particularly with one with limited assets and significant debts.

    Now those debts may be from Directors/Management (and there’s some suggestion of that in the accounts) and therefore an investment in the business, but bottom line the financials from the last accounting year and in previous years have been pretty grim. Overall they might be moving to some level of marginal profitability on the train franchises and potentially there might have been further investment since the March-end date but DTG aren’t out of the woods yet, nor are likely to be for several years.

    Nobody questioned the business thinking behind the 64 bit surprise for TSxxxx, after all it had long been presumed ‘impossible’ or at least ‘unlikely’. That obviously keeps that revenue stream alive for longer and takes pressure of TSW to become an immediate best seller. It’s probably not unreasonable to suggest that TSW was taking longer to develop and that initial sales were clearly going to be inadequate to replace TSxxxx revenues, hence the need to keep TSxxx alive. The downside of course was keeping TSW’s biggest rival viable and therefore not aiding any transition from TSxxxx to TSW. One might be cynical and wonder if the reason that TSxxxx hadn’t been revised to 64 bit in the past was exactly to give TSW an easier path to success. Incidentally DTG’s claim that the two products aren’t competing has always seemed to me to be a weak argument.

    What continues to surprise me is the patience of the TSW community. DTG must make a little offering to their Gods each day that the community has stuck with them. Anyone who has the temerity to point out that the editor still hasn’t been released is met with angry responses that DTG have committed that it will come and that there are details on the site about what it will contain. People guessed it would come last Christmas. People guess that it will come this Christmas. Hopefully people won’t have to guess that it will come next Christmas. People complain about bugs and others suggest that there’s a patch just around the corner. LIRR is announced and postings claim that it will be the best DLC in the series, and yet when it’s released it all looks a little ‘lifeless’.

    Bottom line when you have a community as loyal and committed as train simmers seem to be there are two key takeaways. That loyalty (given there’s not much real competition) should be a license to print money and secondly to keep them loyal you should treat them well. Failing in both doesn’t speak well of DTG.
     
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  18. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Member

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    A bit of optimism every so often.
    Christmas is coming...;)
     
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  19. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    It's looking like LIRR was a bit of a flop:
    upload_2018-12-1_1-17-2.png

    That's the peak players, so it's a fairly good indicator of early sales of a DLC compared to previous ones.

    I think if DTG had added some extra rollingstock to the LIRR, maybe a DM30AC with some C3 passenger cars, as well as adding a realistic amount of AI traffic, both on the roads and rails, LIRR would have sold a bit better.
     
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  20. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    It’s a real shame because LIRR, aside from the obvious and usual, is actually pretty damn good. In fact, RSN & LIRR illustrate demonstrable positive progress. That said, perhaps what we’re seeing here is what so many of us have predicted for so long, that customers would eventually get fed up with these buggy releases and walk away. I think TSW has so much potential but DTG simply have to STOP releasing software with so many obvious, and in some cases, game breaking bugs.

    If your QA team test a DLC and see that at one of the stations there is rain coming through the roof, passengers are all over the tracks, the signalling isn’t right, the sound isn’t right, certain textures are such low resolution that they are indistinguishable, the schedule doesn’t work, scenarios can’t be completed, passengers stand with their backs to the trains / stand on station roofs / sink into the platforms and so on, it is not acceptable to release it in that state and expect people to pay for it. No ifs. No buts. I just don’t understand why DTG don’t get this - using your customers as beta testers is only going to end badly. If your QA team are not picking this stuff up, then you need a new QA team.

    No one expects entirely bug free software, but these bugs are so obvious and so numerous that it quite clearly has put people off and indicates to me, at least, that DTG take our custom for granted. Whilst the short term picture means more money into the bank account, those player numbers from Steam illustrate the longer term consequences of this company culture.

    Stop shooting yourselves in the foot. Please.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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  21. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree with you. It's especially frustrating with issues like rain coming throught the roof because it's such an obvious issue, even to a tester who knows nothing about trains, and it would probably takes 30 seconds to fix. The same with passengers on the roof. You'd think with all the years of developing and publishing train sim software that they'd have a solid group of tester, so they are probably rushing the software out with little testing.

    I think with recent events surrounding Bethesda and Fallout 76, people in general are running out of patience with games companies. People have no issue with accepting honest mistakes, but when the mistakes are repeated again and again, and the company doesn't communicate or try to make right their mistakes, people will only take so much.

    The situation with the signalling on RT is a prime example. They released RT and must have known the PZB didn't work, because it's pretty obvious after a few minutes driving that it doesn't. They then said that it's too much effort for them to fix, no sorry, no compensation of any sort. They then fixed it for RSN, but still RT is for sale with broken PZB, and the Steam page still claims to have a realistic signalling system. I think Trading Standards would take a very dim view of that.

    We also saw the GP40-2 DLC disappear from our games this week. DTG didn't acknowlege the error and let people know what was going on, let alone apologise. Instead they found the time to post an advert for LIRR. It's such basic customer service and it's so frustrating to see a complete lack of it.
     
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  22. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

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    Hello there!

    Very well said - this is a known community complain but nice to see it formulated so nicely. I'd like to share my thoughts on this matter. Please keep in mind that these are my thoughts and my analysis of the circumstances round about LIRR - I do not claim that any of this is objectively 'correct'. This is quite a long post so I'll break it up into a couple sub-parts.

    Justifications for the bugs?
    I think the general 'excuse' DTG have for LIRR being buggy is that it's actually released early.
    But perhaps, if DTG truly wanted to push LIRR early, but therefore have it buggy, they could've called it a 'Beta'-version. I do indeed see LIRR currently as in 'Beta' phase. That'd give an instant explanation as to why we see so many bugs and would also give some kind of reassurance to the community that DTG is working on fixing these bugs.
    Why does this go back to bad communication?
    I cannot start to think what'd happen if DTG does not fix these obvious LIRR bugs - that'd be a total wreck, thus I am assuming that we must get an update sometime in the future. But nonetheless, it would be nice to tell the community "Hey, this is broken, but I'll give it to you early whilst I patch it up" - that'd be okay in my opinion. And it takes next to no effort to make a quick post on the forums here or DTG live to tell the community about what one is trying to accomplish by giving us such a bugged DLC. Thus I conclude that all this again goes back to DTG's very poor communication with the community. I mean, if we take a look at DTG live and their latest posts, we constantly find statements implying the 'beauty' of the new addons, specifically LIRR. A couple quotes and possible deductions from these quotes:
    What can one deduce from DTG live posts?
    The LIRR own and operate over 830 M7 2-car EMUs, which when coupled up assist in the daily movement of over 310,000 passengers. In Train Sim World, you can now step into the cab of this modern masterpiece, and authentically experience it in virtual first hand.
    I've highlighted in bold some words. 830 M7 2-card EMUs suggests that the route is very crowded. Anyone that has attempted LIRR service mode knows it's almost completely empty. "Modern masterpiece" and "authentically experience" suggest that the LIRR is a 100% 1-1 recreation of the real thing. When was the last time that rain was capable of quantum tunneling through solid concrete???
    Situated in Downtown Brooklyn, New York City, Atlantic Terminal is one of three western termini for the LIRR in the “City That Never Sleeps”, and therefore the start and end of many services out toward Jamaica and beyond. New York Penn station is also served by the LIRR, allowing interchanges with Amtrak services, and Long Island City is the other terminus.
    City that never sleeps. Well I guess we got a post-apocalyptic service mode, eh? Such a pity. Furthermore, there is not a single service to Long Island City. Why is DTG advertising with that being included?
    A mirror to our faces.
    At this point I must stress that the deductions above are NOT 100% correct in logical sense. This is simply what I believe the 'average Joe' would conclude from the DTG live post.
    In summary, we see many hints from DTG that LIRR is a perfectly made 100% ideal add-on and a 1-to-1 replica of the real world, which is at least for now not true. We do not see a single hint that DTG is actually still working on it and that LIRR is by no means complete. I don't think that giving hints towards something false is the correct way to go about releasing an add-on. I believe, and I am certain that most of you will agree with me, that HONESTY is the right way forwards. Nobody will complain about the truth. Nobody can complain about the truth. Nobody wants to complain about the truth.
    I must remind you that this post is not a complaint. It is not meant to be one. This is an analysis of the situation with some ideas on how to help DTG in the future. This is purely meant to give us and DTG a reflection on what has been occurring in the last couple weeks. I personally do not mind these bugs and am confident that we'll get an update.
    DTG bad at DLC in general?
    On a different note, some people claim that DTG is generally bad at creating DLC, but I do not think that this is the case. RSN, GWE (I never play HH so someone tell me about HH) and NEC are very well made with next to no bugs. I have not yet found a single severe issue on RSN since the update. Thus DTG has all the knowledge and capabilities to make extremely good DLC's, but, obviously, they need time.
    What about the future?
    As for what will happen in the future, I have no good predictions. I just hope that DTG will look upon my analysis and amazing work by other community members. We all hope that TSW won't share fates with FSW...

    I wish to hear your thoughts on this. Do you agree with what I have said? Where do our opinions diverge?

    Have a great day!
    Prof

    EDIT: A perfect example of how communication is important is the current situation with the RailDriver and TS19 64-bit. The current 64-bit driver doesn't even work for most people. But, they have immediately said that it's in beta-phase and that it's still being worked on. NOBODY complained and everyone showed understanding towards the development of the driver. LIRR is in a far better state, but without announcing that it's still being worked on and by hinting at it's perfection, the community can only ever say that they feel deceived.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  23. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    For once Creeptonius I completely agree. I just dont see the modus operandi altering anytime soon. I, like many othes I suspect, have just stopped investing. Instead I hang around looking for progress on legacy issues. At least with that there is evidence of progress (although whether or not its accurate is open to debate).
     
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  24. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Prof,

    Well said.

    I’ve always thought of GWE as very buggy, and to begin with it was. It has clearly been improved and thinking about it now, it’s actually the glaring missing or incorrectly implemented features that are the problem. By that I mean the signalling system doesn’t work correctly, the sound is by far the worst on any of the DLCs, you cannot save a game with confidence as the reload is always a complete dogs dinner, there are missing features on the HST, there are significant problems with the lighting (ie it’s ALWAYS very bright heading one way, and dark heading the other unless it’s full blown nighttime) and so it goes on. The third party scenery mods have transformed the feeling of the route. How hard would it have been for DTG to have done that? Seriously?

    To be fair, apart from the diesel electric physics, HH has been improved a lot. There are still issues with some of the tunnel occlusion and the overly bright lighting effects, but otherwise it’s quite a nice route.

    RT could be a nice route, except for the single train type and consequent boring AI, but the PZB not working ruins it.

    WSR is a decent enough route but a bit boring. To describe it as ‘set in a diesel gala’ is stretching reality beyond breaking point. The new 33 is a good add on. This is the route with the mind-breakingly low resolution textures I previously talked about, that hark back to the GTA III days. Have a look at the station poster boards, it’s appalling and in my case that’s on Ultra settings.

    RSN is excellent and DTG should be applauded for it. This should be the baseline that all future DLC should at the very least be hitting, but ideally progressing from.

    I like LIRR. It’s a good DLC but again, it shipped with too many obvious problems. It must have been a conscious decision to release it like that as they simply can’t have missed the issues we’ve talked about. It’s also hugely disappointing that we don’t see the locos from NEC making an appearance.

    Speaking of NEC, it’s alright but again the bugs spoil it. You can’t use the full suite of safety features (the crux of the simulation) due to the bugs. They have improved hugely since release, but the incorrect speeds in the tunnels ruin it.

    That’s my take on it. My school report would be 6/10. DTG must pay more attention in class, be more ambitious and take more pride in their work, and stop accepting mistakes & errors as the normal way of doing things.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  25. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    On testing, and acceptable ‘bugs’ or the concept of ‘acceptable’ bugs I’d suggest this based on general commercial experience.

    Bugs may escape testers if users do things that are unexpected, unlikely or potentially not critical. So let’s say there’s a rail yard off to the side with thirty-five branches. Maybe one of those branches has an issue, it’s not in any service/scenario. Many, if most users will never detect the problem as they will never use that piece of track. Testers miss things (34 of 35 branches were fine). That’s potentially an acceptable bug. Still should be fixed, but the cost of testing everything and every situation is prohibitive and not fool proof. In commercial terms there’s a ‘work around’. Shunt into the track next to it. Just avoid that one.

    Bugs that should never escape testers are things that most if not all users will experience. The sort of bug that you run into all of the time (people on the tracks) or that exist in what would be common usage (it’s raining, the station roof leaks). In these cases the tester can’t have missed them. In fact multiple testers can’t have missed them. Either there’s a culture of ‘it isn’t important’ or ‘it’s too expensive to fix’. Many of these issues incidentally don’t have a workaround (you can’t coax the passengers down from the roof).

    The problem with TSW and DTG software in general is that the errors are so easily detectable. It’s not as if two weeks after release someone asks on this board someone posts ‘has anyone else noticed that if you do...’ people immediatedly see the issues.

    DTG clearly do testing, after all most stuff works. What I suggest they must have is a list of what is critical and what isn’t. Cosmetic issues (that leaking roof), poor quality (sound issues) and technical deficiencies (incorrect signaling procedures that less knowledgeable users may not even detect) probably aren’t considered critical.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  26. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Member

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    Cosmetic issues and sound issues, both arguably superficial, are to a certain degree forgivable. Technical issues, such as signalling not working, safety systems breaking, or operation of the train being rendered in an inaccurate way, should not be allowed to make it into the final product being sold as a realistic simulation.
     
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  27. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I half agree. For me, sound is critical and is as important as anything else. The reason Armstrong Powerhouse has been so successful (in my opinion) is because they really care about the audio. To be fair, the sound is not too bad in TSW on the whole, except for GWE which is a complete mess.
     
  28. Alex01

    Alex01 Active Member

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    why the bloody hell is everyone downvoting my LOVE stuff
     
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  29. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Because it’s not your place to ask for a civilised and sensible debate/discussion to be closed down just because it upsets your sensibilities. If you’ve not realised it yet, the world isn’t all pink clouds & butterflies.

    Respect has to be earnt, it doesn’t just come about as of right.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
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  30. Alex01

    Alex01 Active Member

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    i said F********K stuff
     
    Alex01
    This message by Alex01 has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
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  31. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Also, because of posts like that one above.
     
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  32. Nick_Brad

    Nick_Brad Member

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    This is all scary stuff to read, as you can see on the left hand side, I am new here and I actually pre-ordered the next dlc to save myself a fiver on the release price, but I also did this with LIRR and should have learned my lesson.
    I was really looking forward to getting the editor before christmas so I could play around with it during my time off, but it's not the end of the world and no promises were made on release of that, so I can't complain.
    The fact that freight operations are going to come later for the "TPE" route and probably at additional cost, that's an issue for me and quite simply, until bug fixes come along for all of the routes, DTG has seen the last of my money. They have a great core product, but whilst they persist with these beta releases and keep working on TS20XX, diluting the workforce that could and should be concentrating on the newer software, it's really hard to continue supporting them and flying the flag for TSW when discussing train sims with others.
     
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  33. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Nick_Brad on the split of resources where’s the evidence of that? Just about everything that’s coming out on TS1 they’re only the publisher, not the developer. Portsmouth Direct would be an exception but if you read about any new DLC in the TS1 side you’ll generally see that it’s another developer who put the work in, but DTG marketing it.
     
  34. Nick_Brad

    Nick_Brad Member

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    My evidence would be the continued annual updates every Autumn with bundled routes......if DTG aren't actually developing these routes then my apologies, I stopped looking at Train Sim after HH was released, I just keep getting the notifications of new routes and the aforementioned updates to the core game. I am a big fan of Norfolk Southern and do have NS content in my wishlist, but I cannot bring myself to buy it, nor play the older sim for that matter.
     
  35. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    I'd argue that the annual update isn't real evidence they are putting much effort into new DLC.

    I would admit that they put some work into the successful 64 bit update. However if there's an argument that developing TS1 is some sort of distraction I'd suggest that the offset is that the some of the revenues from the older product are going into TSW development. At the point I strongly doubt that TSW is self supporting and that TS1 is to some extent subsidizing it. There's nothing wrong in that but an argument to effectively euthanize TS1 to focus on TSW might give you exactly the opposite result that you desire.
     
  36. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    I can't believe how long this argument has been going. 7 pages and nobody has managed to convince anyone of anything! Very... internet, isn't it?
     
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  37. Alex01

    Alex01 Active Member

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    DTG close this pls
     
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  38. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I'd say it's consistent with human discourse for the last few millenia rather than being an internet thing. The aim isn't to convince anyone of anything, but rather to freely exchange ideas, which gives those involved a broader perspective upon which to form their opinions.
     
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  39. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    Nobody is calling anyone names... the thread is staying on topic and perspectives are generally being respected.

    If everyone agreed on everything we wouldn’t need a discussion forum.
     
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  40. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah... you're right. Sorry, the thread is fine. As to the question it raises, that is still arguably open, although I'd argue that now that TS is on consoles it won't be going away- there are no other options for console players.
     
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  41. Nick_Brad

    Nick_Brad Member

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    That is very true and I have no doubt that TS is what is keeping DTG afloat, at the present stage, if all development were to stop on TS, then it could indeed cause issues, but if nearly all the development is now handled by 3rd parties, I'd argue for DTG to move away from TS development completely, but continue publishing 3rd party routes and allow those members of staff to assist with the bug correcting. Right now, TSW is getting so much negative PR due to all the bugs, it's hardly surprising that TS is having to provide the financial clout.
     
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  42. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the player numbers it seems like NTP has been another flop.

    upload_2018-12-18_16-45-35.png

    Setting the route in the 80s was always going to cost a few sales as that era is not as popular as a route set in the present day, though variety in eras is nice to have. That said, by making the route passenger only as well they also excluded the customers who predominantly like freight operations as well as those who like a mix.

    I know some people are thinking 'they're going to add the freight as a seperate addon for NTP', the problem with that is the people who like freight will be put off by the need to spend £36.98 to play a handful of freight scenarios and many of those who just like passenger operations won't buy the freight DLC. Also they haven't set anything in stone regarding the freight DLC, for example what will it contain, when will it be released etc. People are not going to by one DLC in the hope that another DLC will come at some point to give them the experience they are after.

    I think DTG missed a trick with the Class 33 release. If they had included a few freight vehicles with the Class 33 it would have made the DLC better value, catering to a broader demographic as well as providing better variety in the scenarios and AI traffic on WSR. They could then have used the same freight vehicles on NTP, again providing better variety in the scenarios and AI traffic. As things stand four of the last five DLC's have had no freight, that's a significant demographic of potential customers being neglected.

    They also need to address the lifeless worlds they create, it's a complaint which is applicable to all the DLCs to a greater or lesser degree. People want to see traffic on the roads and people walking to the shops, they want to see animals grazing in fields, they want to see a crowd of people when they arrive at a big station and they want to see a realistic amount of AI on the rails.

    Realistically we're still several months away from an official release of the Editor, and whilst we may get a Beta in the New Year, there's no guarantee that anything developed with the Beta version will still function correctly once the final version of the Editor is released or whether it will be possible to share creations on the Steam Workshop. I just hope DTG can hang on long enough to release the Editor.
     
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  43. Alex01

    Alex01 Active Member

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    why is this starting again :(
     
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  44. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Who knows? :|
     
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  45. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I've been involved in Train Sim development for many years and I, along with many others are eager to see TSW succeed. So we analyse, critique and discuss TSW in terms of its future.

    My post above outlines where I think DTG went wrong with their recent DLCs and what I think they could do differently in the future to make TSW more successful. I don't understand what's controversial about that and why you wish to see this discussion curtailed.
     
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  46. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Alex01,

    Because sadly another DLC has slipped by with all the same old problems. My wholly positive first impression was been slowly chipped away by problem after problem. As I’ve said before, DTG certainly deserve credit where it is due, but some elements of NTP simply aren’t good enough. I’m sure I speak for many users when I say I’ve spent more money on TSW & TS1 than almost every other game I’ve ever bought put together, over the course of 30ish years. To see the same problems time and time again on a product you’ve invested so much money in is just sad.

    There’s no point going over it all again however, the dead worlds, the bugs, the poor (and worsening) scenery and most depressingly the sales, are what they are.

    Only DTG have the power to change things. The biggest clue to TSWs future is to acknowledge that the above issues are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are the perfect illustration of cause and effect.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
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  47. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Quality must improve. People are voting with their wallets. Im one of those who bought NTP and its ok, but textures have been dumbed down and the world is still dead. Ive said it before and ill say it again, ts2018 is still more immersive, mainly because the background has movement in it and the sounds are better. Get AP on it dtg.. ;)
     
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  48. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Constructive criticism is never a bad thing nor should it be viewed as something negative if it is a genuine point which you can back up, which I have seen so far.

    It seems DTG seem to make the same mistakes over and over again and haven’t learnt much over several DLC releases.

    Some of the main issues are as mentioned:
    - Lack of AI
    - Generally a dead feeling world (no cars, livestock, people or activity out of stations)
    - Poor textures. We are using a next generation engine and to be using textures like these is honestly embarrassing.
    - Everything just seems too clean and sparse.
    - Generally there seems to be a lack of freight included in DLCs.


    These things will be mentioned and said how many times needed until DTG listens.
     
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  49. mrchuck

    mrchuck Member

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    I totally agree with you DTG has got to extend the routes
     
  50. DANNYBOY2487

    DANNYBOY2487 Active Member

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    its weird cause in CSX Heavy Haul there are moving vehicles.
     
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