Hi all, in light of some recent releases and some of my recent suggestions for overhauling certain older routes and extending them like SEHS, I would like to discuss the importance of timetables in TSW. I'll illustrate my opinion with some examples from these recent releases, explaining why I think they were good, how they could have been better and what role the timetable plays in this. Together with the ability to walk around in the 'world' (this is where the world in train sim world comes from), the timetable mode is one of the main differences compared to previous train sims like DTG's own TSC. In my opinion the ability to walk around is nice, and the improved graphics also help, but the true deciding factor in what makes TSW such an improvement is timetable mode. A new goal The timetable creates the feeling of being part of a larger system, in which you are able to choose which 'cog' you want to be in that system. Both as a driver or passenger, you can jump on a service that makes sense, as it is based on real life, and that services fits into a bigger picture. This is especially evident when you arrive at a station and another train for a different direction arrives and/or leaves around the same time, allowing the virtual passengers to change. That also adds a meaning to the goals in game. You're not supposed to reach a station in a certain time just for the game element, but also for the simulator element. You're passenges, although simulated, want to be able to make that change, and they rely on you to get them there on time. In this way, the timetable adds a goal with a meaning to the game. Realism Besides adding a goal for the player, the timetable also adds realism, as AI traffic is part of the same system, and also reflects real life. This can be a stark contrast to the scenarios where AI traffic sometimes seems to make no sense, as it's just there to populate the scenario. The scenario AI trains don't run sensible services, as they're not playable, they exist only to add visual intrigue for the player, and thus serve less purpose. Timetable AI trains however, reflect real life. They operate real services, with sensible stops, making it all the more magical when you meet one, or even drive alongside another service for a bit. Intrigue and variety The timetable also adds a great deal of intrigue and variety for the player. The AI trains you see during your run will for a large portion be playable. You can wonder where they came from, and where they go (even if it's unplayable AI services). I can personally just enjoy looking at all the PIS screens at a station during my stops, being fascinated by all the real world destinations the trains around me will go to. This tightly woven web of services really brings out the depth that a route has in real life. By layering and the use of some creative yet realistic services (like ECS moves, light engine runs, a freight pickup, etc.) the timetable also adds a great deal of variety, which increases with every new release that uses layers. All this causes timetables to be one of the most important things in TSW, and one of the main things I look for in a good route or DLC. That's why I'd like to illustrate how a good or bad timetable, or timetable additions can add or take away value from a DLC. First I'd like to explore how timetables evolved in TSW. The evolution of timetables Over time, the timetables in TSW have gotten a lot better (in general, but more on that later). The difference this has made overtime can be seen clearly with some of the timetable upgrades that certain routes recieved as part of certain DLC or as a free Preservation Crew upgrade. In the beginning timetables were rather simple. The release timetable of Rapid Transit didn't really reflect reality that much, as it used on type of train, for one type of service, without any AI going to off world destinations or interesting moves being included. However with some DLC and a timetable upgrade Rapid Transit was already vastly improved, though it remains limited by the fact that not all trackage around Leipzig Hbf is usable and that the focus of the route is on the S-bahn traffic. From Rush Hour onwards though, we have seen some increasingly fantastic timetables. Brighton Main Line's timetable still stands as uniquely busy with a great variety of trains on a great variety of services, and AI only traffic being present aswell, making the endpoints busy with more than just the playable services. DRA included a larger variety of freight services (with different max speeds and brake settings also being helpful), that had an interesting interaction with both regional, S-bahn and long distance traffic. These routes also introduces a lot of AI only services at major points along the route. An upgrade in TSW features somewhat related to timetables is the introduction of PIS screens with München-Augsburg, which allows you to learn more about what the trains around you are actually doing. The constant upgrading of signalling and the fact that services can now cross the 00:00 line helped make Kassel-Würzburg and SEHS (extended) such amazing releases with TSW3. I'll list some of the changes and upgrades that I think were most important below (let me know if I missed anything). Layering becoming a thing (especially on German routes) Timetable screens AI only traffic where this makes sense (take the difference of Hamburg Hbf before and after the upgrade for example) Seasonal timetables The inclusion of ECS moves, railtours, loco preparation, autotrain/sleeper services (KWG) and other unique but realistic services The naming of freight services (i.e. '50061 Wanne Eickel - Landshut' instead of 'Freight Kassel to Würzburg', though preferably this would also specify the type of freight train), adding uniqueness and "meaning" to each service. Services being able to cross the 00:00 line. Naming of 'go via' instructions with junction names (i.e. 'go via ..... junction track ...' instead of 'go via location') No AI generated timings, but manually input timings for intermediate stops in a service. The fact that timetables have improved in quality since the release of the first version of TSW, means that on some older routes there is clear room for improvement. Many of these routes also don't make full use of the layering oppertunities we have now as certain trains didn't exist when they were released yet (take the lack of ICE's on HRR for example). In this regard I've made a few suggestion, some of which introduce a new timetable as part of a loco DLC (MSB BR 111 and timetable upgrade) or as part of a route extension and re-release, much like SEHS (RSN extension to Siegen, HRR extension Düsseldord-Dortmund). However, the loco packs with slightly overhauled existing stock DTG has been releasing recently can also be an oppertunity for this, as the BR 423 that was part of the 'new journeys expansion pack' for SKA also came alongside a major improvement to the timetable of that route. How a good or bad timetable influences the value of a DLC To illustrate my point about the importance of timetables, and the oppertunities they can form, I'll run through a few (recent) releases, and how the timetable implications (or lack of) of these releases impacted their value and the way they were recieved overall in my eyes. SKA: BR 423 (new journeys) - good The BR 423 for SKA that was part of the new journeys expansion pack also provided a huge improvement to the timetable with reworked and increased S-bahn services, AI traffic around Köln Hbf, a playable BR 101 service, static stock in yards and some other little goodies taking the route a step up. Even though I was dissapointed that this release wasn't a full rework of the BR 423 to S-bahn Köln specs but rather a reskin of the S-bahn München one, I still bought it because of the timetable upgrade it provided. KWG: BR 403 and 401 reskin - bad The recent release of the railbow skin for the ICE 3 and green climate stripe for the ICE 1 was a dissapointment to me, not just because it provided no real new rolling stock, but also in a significant way because it didn't add anything to the timetable. Now this is kind of understandable for KWG, as that timetable is already very good, and where it is supossed to be. That's why I think this could have been a way better pack as a release for München-Augsburg. There it could add the ICE 1 to the route, aswell as upgrade the timetable to modern standards (though requiring some optimisation). This would make it way more valueable, even though it contains the exact same rolling stock. SEHS: Class 66 RHTT and Class 37/7 ROG - good I'm throwing in these packs together, because the concept is similar, and they were made for the same route. These two releases add some very interesting altough niche services to the route, making use of partly recycled and partly reworked/new stock. More value is added to these releases as they'll provide the same type of niche services to many future UK routes, paying off their price over time. They'll thus add a little bit of content to the timetables of many future routes or routes that get timetable upgrades later on. NEC New York-Trenton - bad The release of NY-T was overshadowed by the fact that it's timetable was lacking in multiple regards, and thus not reflecting real life like it could have. It was a huge example of wasted potential. The NJT services are far below what one could see in real life, and there was no LIRR AI at New York Penn, making it feel way less busy than in real life. The critique this route recieved just on the grounds of its timetable is a great example of the importance of the timetable to players. I still hope this will be improved someday, as I do think it has great potential. Now there are many, many more examples to list. I think DRA's timetable is one of the reasons it's seen as an all time great for TSW for example, and I think HRR is being held back by the fact that it's timetable isn't up to real life. But that brings me to the oppertunities for improvement. Oppertunities for improvement To finish off on a hopeful note, I'd like to outline how possibilities for timetable improvement could be used to make DLCs valueable and well-recieved in the future. I think that with the loco add-on bundles DTG has been doing lately DTG should start considering including other routes than just the most recent three 'big release' routes. They should then ask the question 'what can this DLC add to the timetable' as one of the mian questions in determening what DLC to develop (like my example about the ICE stripe reskins being way better if they were added to HMA instead). The BR 423 and Class 66 RHTT are great examples of this. In addition to this, DTG could start thinking about doing what they did to SEHS (extending, adding in some stock, new timetable and updated features and then re-releasing) to more routes. As I outlined earlier I think Haupstrecke Rhein-Ruhr and Ruhr-Sieg Nord are both routes that have great potential in this regard, as an extension could give them more logical end points, with interesting gameplay inbetween. These routes are also being a bit older, making it so that they can really benefit from new timetables that make use of all the new layering oppertunities aswell as general upgrades such as wet platforms and snow buildup, some visual upgrades and many other things. Lastly full on loco DLCs, that introduce a new train to a route together with a significant timetable upgrade (like a BR 111 for MSB) are another way for DTG to upgrade timetables alongside a paid release so they can still make some money for the work that went into it. I hope some of you share my view on the significance of timetables in releases, and also see the oppertunities for better timetables adding value to new releases. I hope this can also serve as a bit of feedback towards DTG as to why certain add-ons might be more or less popular depending on the timetable, aswell as what expectations are in regards to what a good timetable is. Let me know your thoughts below, I'm interested in hearing them!
I just saw this post got lost because it was awaiting moderator approval for some reason, it should now be visible for everyone
I must agree that timetables are what make TSW, TSW for me. You get so much more value for money compared to TSC with the almost endless amount of services and a handful of scenarios included compared to just a handful of included scenarios
That's new. Will we be getting all threads checked before becoming public? Back to the topic, though - definitely agree that the timetable is extremely important, way more than scenarios in the case of TSW. I think it should become a practice that a loco DLC creates a layer for some route because that not only adds gameplay to it but also increases the value of the route itself.
That happened to me a while back, don't know the cause, I also made a thread about it and JD said it might be a side effect of the changes they made during the bot attacks last month and are investigating the issue but don't know why it's still happening
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/spirit-of-steam-scheduled-running-times.55795/ Which timelines are real? Is there really such a timetable as 10:45:23? In my country, the minimum unit is 15 seconds, but 30 seconds is also rare. For passengers, min-unit is 1 minute.
Yeah a large number of timetables still use times that are basically generated as following. An AI train is set to depart at a real world time from the start station of the service. The train is set to make the same stops as the real life service would. The time it took the AI train to travel between it's stops forms the in-game timetable. A lot of newer, and IMO better, timetables use manually input times, where the timing of the stops isn't determined by how long it takes the AI to get there, but how long is scheduled for that trip in real life (where they also don't use timetables that are as exact as 17:30:23, but round of to half minutes or even entire minutes). The manually input times also make it realistically possible to adhere to the timetable while using safety systems.
I thought the timetable was copied from pdf form. Until I searched the real timetable... I think the parking time at small station is too long, too short at big station. In my country there is only one moment for small station. Like 11:03. It may arrive 10 minutes early (usually wait for express). Then close door at 11:02:45, run at 11:03:00. In TSW3, I always close door 5 seconds earlier, otherwise I can't be on time.
The waiting times aren't neccesarily wrong in my eyes, the main issue is how much buffer room the timetable has for delays. AI generated timetables use high acceleration/decceleration and trains going top speed the entire way (so the AI is basically going full power, then maintaining the speed limit exactly and then full brakes). This isn't how you would operate in real life on most services (some places like the München S-bahn are known for pushing it though), as railway practice usually dictates coasting when max speed is reached, aswell as gently slowing down for speed limit changes instead of harshly braking (both due to passenger comfort and to prevent the wasting of energy). In addition to that, many safety systems (especially PZB on German routes) force you to approach negative signal aspects at slower speeds or sometimes show a signal aspect that limits speed to below what track speed is due to an upcoming junction. AI generated timetables leave no room for this, as the AI doesn't realistically follow signalling, nor employ techniques such as coasting and speed limit anticipation. This means the AI sets timings that aren't reflective of real life or what you'd get when playing the game as realistically as you can. Quite a few newer timetables have solved this very adequately though, by inputting manual stop timings and leaving a bit of room by shortening the passenger loading time (while remaining the same scheduled stop time), so that you can compensate a bit if you're 30 seconds late preventing a knock-on effect. These timetables are way more enjoyable to play, and should honestly be the standard going forward. I hope that many more routes will get upgraded timetables with new layering and substitution, but also more realistic timings like the newer timetables have.
If you're overly concerned with being on time at all stops, there something you should know: you do not get penalized for leaving a station earlier than the scheduled departure time. So, instead of waiting with your doors open for the departure time, you can close them and leave the station early, thus giving you some extra time to reach the next station early. Obviously, if you're more concerned with the realism of the simulation, then turn off APs and drive how you see fit and ignore penalties and lack of medals.
AI generated timetables are a definite deal breaker for me going forward. An AI generated timetable is nonsense and often impossible to meet driving realistically. Proper timetables must prevail.
In my country, trains can be delay but not early. It be complained about time is for departure not for closing door. Closing door is usually 15 seconds earlier. In TSW3, although I tried to ignore timetable, it still be annoying. I can't believe that such a simple little thing can't be done well.
can someone look here and help me out I didn't want to Hijack this thread PC - How Do I Get Train And Wagons From Creator's Club To Timetable? | Dovetail Games Forums
For the timetable they have to be realistic as possible otherwise you would be repeating the mistake of Long Island Railroad and Northeast Corridor Trenton New Brunswick Rutgers University New York Penn Station
I think Southeastern High-speed is the prime example of how to balance Realism and Semi-Fictional Variety. Although today you won't see a TGV or ICE3 at St. Pancras or on HS1, they have been there before. The TGV is justified (correct me if I'm wrong) as a testing run of sorts, in-game. The ICE is static but again, they've been in London before. Of course, apart from that it's a true-to-life timetable, with realistic enough railtours as well, including the Charity Javelin - which is an amazing inclusion if you ask me. As for the randomly generated timetables point, I remember reading somewhere that timetables in reality are timed to every six seconds - although I can't remember if that was about the UK or Germany. I think it was the UK. So they aren't far off in that sense. They just don't give enough thought to reality, player train physics, or the player's experience. I think timetabling has well and truly improved - in DTG routes anyway - since BML's timetable. It could be argued that GCC was the first to raise the bar.
IIRC in Germany it can differ on service type. S-bahn services tend to be more tightly scheduled, including fractions of minutes, whereas IC or ICE trains would be timed to the minute. Not sure on the exact data though, but it does differ from service type to service type, local circumstance, time of day and general system.
SEHS timetable is a very good one and sets the standard for me really particularly with the RHTT and ROG 37 I don't think it was the UK as I've always had it done to the half minute.
As Matt says, in the UK timings are to the nearest 30 seconds. A few points I would add on the subject of timetables: - I agree on their importance. They are what makes the difference between TSW and TSC. - The ‘preservation team’ updates on some routes actually made the timetables worse, changing them from proper input xx:xx:00 and xx:xx:30 times to AI generated odd numbers. Such a shame to get it right, then spend time on an update which messes it up! A key improvement needed is to get these routes back to proper timetables. - One of my biggest frustrations with TSW is that freight trains don’t have proper timetables. I think some have a scheduled arrival time at destination but others have no schedule at all. Just drive to the destination, in your own time. This is a nonsense, and completely unrealistic. In reality all trains have schedules - it’s how we avoid them getting in the way of other trains - and those schedules have multiple intermediate passing times, to path them between other trains at every junction, not just a final destination time. Until this is replicated in TSW, driving freight trains will always be unsatisfying. - Finally, and this isn’t strictly about timetables but is closely related - the biggest improvement which could be made in TSW would be a small degree of randomisation in station dwell times for player and AI trains (as in reality). This would mean that in Timetable Mode the train movements would vary slightly each time you drive a given train, meaning that no two runs would be the same, due to the variety in signal checks which it would generate.
On recent routes, the information we've been lucky to get access to have given details on when and where freight trains stop. This is therefore implemented for freight on London to Brighton, Southeastern extended, Bremen-Oldenburg, Kassel-Würzburg and Niddertalbahn as well as Hamburg-Lübeck. However, it is important to note that many of this timed stops are as required. If no train will pass in the time it's stopped for, it does not need to stop. This is also taken into consideration. Though with that said, the routes I listed above have some times stops for certain trains.
I'm glad to see the improvements on these recent routes. You seem to have a really good understanding of timetables both in game and in real world, making the ones you worked on so great! I also have to compliment you for your creativity and balance between rarity and reality in some of the more unique and special services, the little things really make the timetables come alive. Looking forward to seeing more of them
I started GWE up the other day for the first time in well a couple of years really. Has that timetable got smaller from its original release or am I imagining it? I do agree that service mode is possibly the biggest boon TSW offers. I comprehensive and realistic timetable for me is of utmost importance. It is also a good reason for DTG and others to bring out suitable DLC to broaden the timetable and to make it more varied and realistic. However on some routes this I would say core feature of the sim has been poorly implemented, SOS, NYT, LIRR, NTP to name but a few. Others like CCL, BCC, SEHS, Aachen and BML are examples of well implemented, realistic and varied timetables.
I really enjoyed reading the OP, I appreciate it when people take the time to outline the positives and negatives of an aspect of the game, and explain the detail of why it's important and how it could improve. Posts like this add so much to the community, in my view.
I had problems with one in TSC the other day. Seems if you put direct links to other sites or even reference another site (I mentioned U K T S and T r a i n s i m d o t c o m) the post is getting flagged. Mine then got deleted in the daily purge of spam, so I had to repost and even with a revised structure it still got flagged. Had to have a conversation with a staff mod to finally get it approved.
To be fair, certain freight routes don't really have a timetable I think. Like for American freight, they spend days and weeks to get to their final destination since they cover long distances
number of likes says all, Im pro. But it is one of the morbidest subject for dtg since they can't overwhelm the signaling and safety systems on so many routes, so they are helpless to improve tmtble that depends on capacity...
Yes, I should have clarified that I was talking about UK routes. I don’t know about practice abroad. I’m confident that the nature of the German network means freight trains must have schedules - you’d cause chaos if you just chucked them out onto a network that congested without a path. I don’t know whether some US freights might genuinely not have schedules. No doubt someone can enlighten us.
Thanks Joe, I appreciate the response. I’ll give those on SouthEastern and London - Brighton a try. Modern freight timetables for the UK are freely available on the Network Rail website and sites such as Real Time Trains, so hopefully it should be possible to have schedules for freight trains on modern routes going forward. On older routes from what I have seen you do not use real timetables anyway, so if passenger train times are to be fictional, it seems reasonable to have fictional freight train times as well. I’d rather have an (achievable) fictional schedule than no schedule at all.
