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This Is The Worst Game Ever. I Need A Refund

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by GlastonburyGabriel, Oct 28, 2020.

  1. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I have never known a simulator NOT to have a manual, and DTG know that it's an issue
     
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  2. sequencer2k16

    sequencer2k16 Active Member

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    How about a kind of live supporter? I would sign up for such a position instantly.

    I have supported many people with livestreams in Discord to find their way into TSW (even if my streamingquality is not the best). If they are really interested you can introduce even absolute noobs to the most difficult locos, all you need is a little time and patience. I have fun explaining people how the locos, trains and routs are working, but unfortunately DTG has no official Discord.

    I'm new to the forum but not new to TSW and since TSW 2 was released i've also become quite active in Steam. Always looking for people who are struggling with problems and don't know what to do. Some of them report bugs that are not bugs at all and if you run the scenario yourself, you'll soon realize that they did something wrong and blame it on TSW, but all in all, most problems are solved quite fast, you just have to be helpful and stay friendly.
     
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  3. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    I am still a firm believer that if you want to start playing a Simulator you must do some homework beforehand, DTG's attempt at making it easy for new players can work but it still needs your will to learn how a real train works and apply that knowdlege. I do not have MSFS2020 so I don't know how MS tackled that problem, but I for example would not start playing DCS unless I knew about weaponry, aerodynamics of an aircraft, etc... and sims are a good motivation to start "studying" a certain field.

    Of course nobody judges you if you want to play this game for fun, we won't call you an uneducated idiot, but whenever you buy a game with "simulator" in the front cover you know where you are getting yourself into.

    Trainz seems more like what you want, so if you are on PC you might try that or even TS20xx is much simpler...

    Also I'd like to remember everyone that the manuals are for us which know the basics, which OP seems to lack, WE experienced player want the manuals, new players either need a simplified way of controlling the train or better tutorials in my opinion
     
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  4. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Most if not all of us here would certainly not want to belittle or dismiss the frustrations of someone new to the game or struggling to master it, if for no other reason than many of us have been through the learning process ourselves. I played MSTS and TS for almost 20 years and I thought I knew a lot about trains and how to control them. Turns out I knew diddly-squat and TSW looked, at first try, much too complicated for an old dog like me. But I was determined to tame the beast and I asked questions and watched others and I think I've finally reached a reasonable level of incompetence:D So I'm having more fun with the game than I thought possible and this is the advice I would give to a rookie. If you love trains, stick with it. Ask, watch, read, practice. And be patient.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
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  5. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    It's something TS2021 has already. Many of the more difficult to drive 'Pro' locos have a simple opt-out feature (usually a combo two key press, which will be found written in the DLC manual) to bypass all the complicated start-up procedures. So if preferred, you can just engage reverser/throttle & drive. There's also the game's 'Simple' mode setting, that can be used [although admittedly this feature is not compatible with some of the various 'Pro' models].

    But both options available in TS20xx show how it can be done i.e. make the game more accessible to beginners and/or those that simply don't want to bother with all the detail. I can't think of any obvious reason why similar approaches couldn't potentially be used in TSW2.
     
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  6. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Active Member

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    Perhaps try looking on the website. Manuals seem to be up. I’d suggest the game is not broken but the user inputs is
     
  7. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    If you're going to bring the snark, at least be correct. There are numerous TSW2 trains and routes missing manuals including the train the OP is having issues with, the ICE 3
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
  8. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    upload_2020-10-28_18-4-12.png
    This is what the TSW2 manual says on the ICE 3M. That's it, apart from on the previous page where it says they run on the Koln-Aachen route, and tbh, that's all you really need IMO to know how to get it running, although there are some things missing (passenger lights, for example).
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
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  9. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Unless I’ve missed it, FS2020 doesn’t have one. I know it’s splitting hairs but sadly it seems to be the modern way. I’m not saying DTG haven’t dropped the ball with the documentation. They clearly have, and it’s almost all clearly awful.

    What I am saying is that there are other resources out there. To get the hump and call the game ‘the worst ever’ because you choose not to even try to understand it is a bit much. Had the OP said ‘Hi everyone. I’m new to this and I’m really struggling to understand it’ I’m sure he/she would have been inundated by offers of help.

    They chose a different tack however.
     
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    In my manuals folder (railworks, manuals, EN) I have TS User Guides for 2015/16/17/18/19/20. Each DLC that I have from DTG, JustTrains and AP all have their own manuals...
    This is why I think the TSW team have dropped the ball rather than it being an inherent DTG issue. DTG have proven they do manuals, so I don't understand why they don't for TSW UNLESS it's because of the cross platform thing, but I would imagine people would be happy to view them in PDF on a browser rather than have nothing
     
  11. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunatly that piece of manual didn't help me when I got LZB bringing my train to stop. Couldn't figure out how to properly reset it, and wouldn't have a clue where I'd find that information. So yeah, manuals are pretty basic at the moment...
     
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  12. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    And if I recall correctly, most manuals DTG put out for TS20xx had sections on how the safety system and signaling of the country the route was in worked. DTG has done them before, and they can, but someone higher up made the poor, and very anti-player decision to simply not do them anymore. It's really one of those bare minimum things.
     
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  13. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Manuals are on the Roadmap.
     
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  14. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Active Member

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    There was zero snark just to be correct. I spotted guides on the site the other day and was clearly unable to be as helpful as you.
     
  15. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    It is a bit odd that it tells you to turn on LZB, Sifa and PZB but doesn't tell you what they do, so that's obviously going to give a player a nasty shock when they start kicking off.
     
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  16. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    The way I initially read it was snarky, but if that wasn't intended, then my apologies.
     
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  17. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    There should be a health warning with sifa, lzb and pzb.
    The manuals should clearly state that the driver should familiarise themselves with driving the train before attempting to use them.
    That entry above for the Ice should have a warning about using these systems, rather than listing them so cavalierly.

    Nothing will turn off a new player faster, than to be stuck in a dead loco with no concept of what he did wrong and how to rectify it.
     
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  18. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Most healthy people probably will. It only motivated me. It made me think. It made me sit up late and then keep thinking in bed. It made me look for answers and miss the game. Maybe I'm weird :D
     
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  19. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    If you want a simple, easy to understand game, and you don't want the in depth immersion, buy TS2021.
     
  20. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    There's a big difference between a simple game and an easy to understand game.

    A complicated game can be made easy to understand with the right documentation and tutorials...
     
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  21. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    That statement above is so very wrong, on so many levels. You can make TS20xx as complicated or simple as you chose. That's one of its great joys. Personally I will never tire of the immersion opportunites it offers. I guess the magic is in the eye of the beholder! ;)
     
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  22. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Being a newcomer is one thing, but it doesn't mean you gotta bash the game as the "worst game ever" just because you are unable to do a 5 minutes tutorial and follow basic instructions.

    For most trains it's literally just "put it in forwards, release brakes and add throttle", as they are already set up to go. But I've seen people here who drive past a stop marker for 2 kilometres then make a post complaining about how they arrived to a red signal that never changes - even though it clearly show the stop marker even two times on their screenshot.

    I really don't now what one could say when people come here to bash the game for not working, when the game pretty clearly tells them what to do and how to do it, but they're unable to comprehend 2 lines of text. Sure, sometimes the instructions are not 100% clear and some tutorials could be better, but then come here and ask like a normal person, don't go on a rant about how LOVE the game is when it's cleary you are at fault.
     
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  23. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, that is basically what I wanted to say but less... Harsh I guess.
    I will still stand by what me and lot of other people here said, that tutorials and help should be more detailed or easier available.
    And then to create a thread like this with such a title... What kind of honest help are you expecting to receive this way. People here are very helpful I found over the last weeks and don't mind explaining the same thing several times to many players.
    You don't see me going to BMW ranting that their cars don't work and I want a refund, even though I have been shown how to operate 2 different cars by their employees. Press engine start, release handbrake, set the gear, throttle. That is basically what you do with the pre-set up trains in this game as well (if you leave out starting the engine)
     
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  24. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    agree i have grown to enjoy actually helping on this server and on facebook groups so much so that's increased my love for the game and passion to play it and one reason i love this community
     
  25. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The problem with that page is that you don’t need to to most of that. In a scenario, it talks you through what to do and in a service in timetable that is nowhere near the procedure. It’s totally disconnected from what you need to do in the game. All the manuals for TSW from the start have the same problem. There has never been an explanation in any manual about how timetable mode really works and what parts of the procedures are actually required for the trains in that setting. It’s fairly easy to get to grips with it once you figure out what is already set up but a complete novice would have no idea.

    It can’t be that difficult to write something along the lines of...

    When starting a service in timetable mode you will spawn already seated in the driver’s seat, in the leading cab of your selected train. If the train is in a station, you will need to open the doors to let the passengers in. The doors will only open if the reverser is in the forward position...

    You get the idea. There has to be someone at DTG who can see how the game actually operates and put that into words, instead of someone writing a procedure that is correct only if you start standing outside the cold and dead train in the depot, which you don’t do. It’s not like it’s their first day making train simulators either, they’ve been doing this for years.
     
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  26. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Member

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    If its any help, I can empathise with you - I had similar problem with the ICE - turned out that it was repeatedly telling me (in German) that the parking brake was on - its a button on the console to the far right of the under the window. The tutorials don't cover the park brake at all. I ended up using Google Translates listen service to turn the German into English then it was an ohhhh moment.

    I've not experienced the drifting towards cars, the only two weirdness of that nature I've found is falling out of the world when getting out of the train in a tunnel and being picked up by a train that I walked in front of and ending up being a passenger until it stopped and I could get out.

    People here are right in saying it is a simulator rather than a game and is quite complex because of that. I find I don't drive the German routes much at all beyond the tutorials because I couldn't be bothered trying to learn enough German to know what the train's computer is telling me. However, I do drive the others quite a bit.

    On the simulator front, TSW2 is sort of a half way hours between game and really being a simulator - everything happens too quickly and you skip so many real steps, you should try RUN8 if you want a simulator. You could learn to drive trains on that and manage to get along in the real world with that knowledge (to a point obviously). In that if you're going to run a "shift" that would take 12 hours then it really does take 12 hours plus any time you spend messing around because you can't start the engine :).

    I'm a second person on a real railway and often do the startup and sometimes drive when my driver feels sorry for me staring out the window with nothing to do but whack the vigilance button every now and then so I've got enough driving experience to know that TSW2 is fairly close - close enough to be challenging and enjoyable. The main differences are:
    • pre shift inspection is missing entirely
    • most of the time you don't need to start the engine - its sitting there idling waiting for you
    • no brake checks
    • coupling is way too simplistic
    • movement simulation is a tad weird
    • in a real train you probably don't look out the window more than once every 50 metres or so and a glance back maybe every second or third glance forwards - not because you don't want to but because you're also scanning your instruments and making continuous small adjustments to your controls - all of this becomes part of what your body simply "does" after you've done it for a while - this never happens in a simulator or game because you don't have any of the feedback you get from the machine itself
    That said its pretty good.

    Paul
     
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  27. michael hooley

    michael hooley Active Member

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    That is great!, could you please list scenarios and services in TSW2 that I just have to put the reverser into forward release the train break and apply the throttle and the loco will move. That would be a godsend for an old man who struggles to get locos moving. thank you in advance.

    Mike
     
  28. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Several trains need the master key set, but there's only a few trains that actually need more things to set up.

    I could share you my youtube channel in which I take several trains for a drive, starting to record as soon as the service starts. Not only does it show the exact service I'm doing, but it also shows any start up procedures I do. Note that I do a few more steps than would be strictly necessary in the game, as I also set up headlights, instrument lights, destination boards, AFB and AWS. Those steps could be skipped. Either way, perhaps the videos might help you getting started with several trains. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXCnhomu-pZsXvWGbPjz-Rw
     
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  29. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    In all honesty, 99% of them. The only step I’d say he’s missed out is the master key. If your key presses went something like...

    ‘Ctrl+W’ - Insert Master Key
    ‘W’ x 1 or 2 - Reverser into FWD (which it tells you on screen
    Hold ‘:’ - until the brake is released (if it’s even set)
    ‘A’ - Apply power

    It’s not that hard.

    I’d reiterate what I said before though that the tutorials and manuals are woeful. TSW needs generic tutorials on how to use PZB, LZB, AWS, Headlights etc. The beauty is, country specific, once you can use one cab/loco/whatever almost all the others are identical.

    If they don’t produce tutorials, then some step by step instructional videos available from the in-game menu are a must.

    God forbid we ever saw ‘study level’ trains like we see in Flight Sim. People might melt!
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
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  30. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I remember the locos on the Peninsula Corridor needed some extra switches to be set, unsure about the engines on Sand Patch Grade.

    For most German and British locomotives the set up is pretty easy. Don't forget that some locos have their "neutral" position above the "forwards" position, so you might actually need to set the reverser a notch back to get into "forwards".
     
  31. michael hooley

    michael hooley Active Member

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    Thank you Purno, it would be great if members like you were each to just give us on here maybe 5 scenarios or services that I just have to turn key on put reverser into forward release the main brakes press the throttle and enjoy the drive.

    I have most of the routes but there is usa ones that I have never even seen, I cannot get the dammed loco to move.

    If I can copy and paste some of the suggested scenario and Serices names, that will keep me happy for months.

    I love the sim, but at times I find it frustrating, I bought the boxed set Railworks 3 and it was on the shelf for a year before I joined this forum and learned to understand it.

    Mike
     
  32. michael hooley

    michael hooley Active Member

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    Blimey Hightower, you mean to tell me that I have been struggling all this time and it is that simple, I have copied your instructions and will try them out on my American and German routes that I have never been able to get the locos to move.
    I will report back.
     
  33. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Master key is only for the 422, 425 (and maybe the Talent?) and 377 IIRC, also the DoSto cab car need the brake release key to be able to release the brakes. All the timetable services with the BR 146, 185, 143, 182, ICE do not require master key, no idea about HMA's rolling stock.

    Thanks for pointing that out anyway, it's still a mistake from my part
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  34. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Excellent idea, we don't have these yet at the start of every single dlc we have the "welcome to ... look up, look down, look left and look right, do you want to invert the axis, walk here, "you've found a collectable, well done", "get in the cab and sit down".

    Why not just cut out all the unnecessary bits and have us start at the platform where the cab is so we can crack on.

    Back to your point, my lord we need good guides and manuals, I've not played Peninsular Corridor in a long time and struggled to get the train moving, I've no idea how PZB or LZB works, I'm only competent with SIFA. The fact the manuals are available on Steam and not accessible via the game on console is a disgrace. As a console player and I'm stuck with something it would be really helpful to save the game, exit and view the manual, see what I need to do then return to where I was and continue.
     
  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It's not available in game on PC, so hardly a "disgrace" that you might have to use a browser to look at the manual, the same as PC users do. Only difference would be that you have to physically have "another means of access" whereas the PC can do both simultaneously. Not DTG's fault your hardware / OS doesn't have this facility
    Or you could use your phone / ipad / PC...

    Let's face it, you only need the manual once or twice then you know how to get stuff moving, and probably reset it when you miss a warning and get an emergency stop (if you're anything like me)
     
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  36. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    I didn't state it was available on PC.. every time I've looked for a manual I've seen people refer to Steam or a link to Steam. I could use a phone or tablet but common sense dictates that if you need help then the resource should be available in-game.

    You say "you only need the manual once or twice then you know how to get stuff moving" which is correct for the majority but missed the bit where I said I've not played Peninsular Corridor in a long time and couldn't get the train moving. A guide/manual etc.. accessible in-game would have helped me and saved these responses by me.

    Do I need a Steam account to view the manuals and do the manuals in steam show instructions for PC,PlayStation and Xbox?

    Thanks.
     
  37. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Maybe we should rather list which locos do need additional setup, like the break valve on US freight trains, the mcu switch and the manual break pressure on long Island railroad and the Class 66
     
  38. Class395

    Class395 Active Member

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    The BR 406 operates in the exact same fashion as the the 403 (except for having MFDs instead of dials) so, reverser into forward and your good to go. The 423 needs the master key to be inserted before putting the reverser into forward.
     
  39. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Would be good if some of us could get together and put a start-up guide for people which includes odd things the tutorial doesn't show. (took me a while to find out how to turn on the passenger lights in the DB BR 406), additionally I posted a thread yesterday asking how I got the destination display to work on the DBpbzfa Control Car.
     
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  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You specifically stated "not accessible via the game on console". It's not accessible via the game on PC either

    Oh I get that, but a quick refresh of the manual (via whatever means) fixes that.

    No you don't need a steam account to view manuals. The manuals should show how to use the onscreen buttons and controls but may not show which button presses are per device, but then I would say that manuals should be on dovetail's site as well so would cover all devices.
     
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  41. hibiki

    hibiki Member

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    Last night I played Long Island Rail Road. I didn't do any tutorial, nor read any manual. I just sat in the same and prodded the buttons, and after 30 mins I managed a great distance of 0.38 miles. Now some people would be upset at the fact that they couldn't get the train going. Personally I thought it was funny.

    As for the ICE tutorial, I did watch that. I also now done a couple of journey's without using any PZB/LZB things. It didn't take the enjoyment out of driving it.

    As far as I can tell you don't have to have everything switched on. Just the basics to move the train. Even the Class 101 can be driven without the AWS being on.

    To me the best plan would be to do 2 tutorials for each train. 1 showing the basic operations to move the train. The second to go into detail about the addition safety features.

    To me a manual is something that isn't too important. As I never really do the RTFM practice, and that isn't just on simulators. I used to like manuals when you got a physical version of a game. But, that is just me.
     
  42. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The manuals are now on Dovetail Live website. They weren’t for a long time but a page appeared sometime earlier this year.
     
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  43. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Excellent, I wasn’t aware of this, thank you.
     
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  44. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    That's the reason stuff like AWS, DSD, Sifa, PZB, etc are all off when you first load, so you can drive it without safety systems kicking off.

    Manuals (well, the ones that officially exist) can be found here:
    https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/train-sim-world/articles/article/tsw-help
    My class 20 one can be found here: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/class-20-quick-guide.23613/ (shameless self promotion over ;) )

    If anyone knows of any other community-made manuals, give me a message and I'll update this post. :)
     
  45. michael hooley

    michael hooley Active Member

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    Maybe now you can see why I get so frustrated after being told it's not that hard, Hightower I need your help before I throw this bloody computer through the window. Lol.

    I tried the following services in Sand Patch Grade

    Q249 Baltimore to Connellsville 0.25 Loco Ac4400cw YN3b
    Q358 Manifest Indianapolis to Cumberland Loco Gp38-2Yn3b

    I followed your instructions to the letter and neither loco moved. Why?

    Help Please!. I will try more services later.
     
  46. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    The Sand Patch Grade locos might actually need a few more buttons set for the start up procedure. I'm not too familiar with them myself. Not a huge fan of Sand Patch Grade either :P

    Perhaps I'll take a run on Sand Patch Grade soonish, and make a video of it. It's one of the few routes I haven't filmed yet. Have been delaying it a bit because it's far from my favourite route :P
     
  47. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    :) This made my day.

    You are right of course!

    But when I imagine the train is yelling "Federspeicherbremse, Federspeicherbremse" (without context, like an additional "ist aktiv" (is active), but that's a DB thing) and not moving, the amps don't go up and the train voice comes with "Störung Störung beepbeep" (Error Error) I consider you might feel a litte stressed.
     
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  48. michael hooley

    michael hooley Active Member

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    Thank you Purno that would be great, can you understand why i get so frustrated. i follow instuctions to the letter and they are wrong and there may be a few more buttons to press. Lol. no wonder I am confused.
     
  49. michael hooley

    michael hooley Active Member

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    Just tried a route Rapid Transit

    0350 Magdeburg to Markkleeburg Loco BR1442-6 Talent 2sb

    I followd instructions to the letter and it worked. Yeah.

    Thank you.

    Mike
     
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  50. Class395

    Class395 Active Member

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    Enjoy the Talent 2! One of the best trains to drive even though the brakes are... how would I put it.... rather funny. Try the Schnellfahrstrecke Köln - Aachen version of it as it has better sound and the stops are further between. Once you know how to operate a Talent 2 almost all Deutsche Bahn electric multiple units are pretty much identical setup wise, (BR 422, 423 and 425) and are a lot of fun to drive.

    Do not activate the safety systems until you are very familiar with the stock (train) and the signalling as the german ones are very demanding. Sometimes even I, a rather experienced german train operator I like to think, get a emergency brake applicaction after missing a speed board or approaching a red signal 1km/h faster than I should lol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020

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