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Thoughts On The Tees Valley Line

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by NorthRail1, May 11, 2019.

?
  1. Great!

    42 vote(s)
    33.6%
  2. Good

    30 vote(s)
    24.0%
  3. Indifferent

    14 vote(s)
    11.2%
  4. Would have preferred a different historic UK route

    3 vote(s)
    2.4%
  5. Would have preferred a modern UK route

    36 vote(s)
    28.8%
  1. NorthRail1

    NorthRail1 Well-Known Member

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    Choice of Route
    Like other recent routes for Train Sim World, this route wasn't previously featured in TS1 and was also previously proposed on these forums, showing that Dovetail is listening to the community. I would presume that part of the reasoning behind the date of 1989 is because of licensing issues with Northern Rail so a modern route may not have been possible. I think it was a good move to make this route set in 1989 instead of 1983 like Northern Trans-Pennine as it provides much more variety with the transition from BR Blue to the different Sectors.
    The Tees Valley Line has a much shorter length than other routes in TSW except WSR, only 27 miles. Whilst some people have complained about the short length of this route, I think that route length does not matter too much, but what the route provides is much more important. According to Realtime Trains, a stopping passenger service from Darlington to Saltburn takes around an hour now; during the 1980s this would probably have taken longer due to 2 extra stations and the Class 101 being slower than the Class 142 now used. The short length is also made up for by the many freight yards which will be included along the route, making this much more of a shunting and freight route than previous British routes for TSW.

    Choice of Locomotives
    The Class 37 in my opinion is a good choice for the route, allowing for more variety than re-using the Class 47 which has already been used on NTP and WSR. The loco looks great from the images shown so far. I am slightly disappointed though that it will only come in Railfreight Trainload Metals livery. Since it will be possible to drive coal trains along the route, I would have thought that it would make sense to add a Trainload Coal livery as well for the coal trains, something which I don't think would be very difficult.
    The Class 08 also looks very good from the screenshots. It is a nice addition to the route and will make use of the many yards, making them feel less empty hopefully. This will also provide the first UK shunting experience for Train Sim World, increasing the variety of services available.
    I was disappointed when I found out that the Class 101 would be featured instead of the Class 142 though it is understandable that the Class 101 is being re-used as there are already 2 new locomotives included with the new route. Hopefully, the Class 142 can be released as a separate DLC at some point in the future.

    Change in Route Cycle
    This is the first change in the cycle of routes from the US-UK-DE system used previously. Whilst this has been criticised by some, I think this is a step in the right direction with content being released when ready, instead of waiting for its turn in the US-UK-DE cycle. As long as there is a variety of content from the 3 countries featured so far, and hopefully more in the future, I don't think it matters what order stuff is released in.

    The Future for this and other British DLC
    This route seems to have good expansion potential, as well as potential compatibility with the Northern Trans-Pennine Route. As I've already said a Class 142 DLC would be good for this route and freight expansions such as a Class 20 would also be good for this route.
    Hopefully the next route will be a modern route. After 2 historic routes and a heritage route the UK needs more modern content. Whilst I don't think that it was a bad choice for this route to be historic, a third historic route in a row would be one too many in my opinion.
     
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  2. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah... I certainly have mixed feelings about the route. Overall, if you ignore the missed opportunities, especially the 101 vs. the 143, and if you are fine with historic routes, it still sounds like fun, so I'll probably buy it given the preorder discount... but they really could have done better on this one. In other words, a 143 and opportunities for substitution with NTP would have been better... but at least this is still good. Probably.
     
  3. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Very good write up!
    I’m sure a lot of others have routes that they would prefer to have but when any route comes out for TSW I’m always excited. I personally love NTP because it really captures a different time and I like that. There’s a certain feeling that comes with driving an older train. When your controlling something that literally has so much history to it, even from beyond the rails. The railway was life for a lot of people and it’s cool to be a part of that history. From the pictures we saw it looks like this route is capturing that feeling as well. When they release DLC it grows the experience, compared to when it released we have a lot more options now. I can imagine a lot of work has to go into these whether it’s a whole route or a locomotive DLC and at the rate we have been getting content I’m assuming DTG is working hard on growing this simulator into the “Train World” they picture it as. I’m okay with the 101 coming over to TVL as driving it is one of the most rewarding experiences I have had. More routes, and locomotives will come. I have no doubt we will eventually have something for everyone. I’m a jack of all trades and a master of none so I will be enjoying a lot of different stuff whether it’s a route from 1989 or a route from 2018.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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  4. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Raildan! On a different subject, how much does it cost to pre-order? I know consoles don’t have the option to do that.
     
  5. Railfan722

    Railfan722 Well-Known Member

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    It's usually around a 20% discount, I think.
     
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  6. NorthRail1

    NorthRail1 Well-Known Member

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    No pre-order discount has been announced, so there may not be one for any platform this time.
     
  7. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    I find 1989 a really odd choice of year. After all the talking about substitution and services mode with the German stuff, you'd think that they would have chosen something that works with existing routes. Do it in modern times and you can mix with GWE's 66, do it in the early 80s and NTP is a feasible crossover. But '89 just doesn't fit in with anything. The 37 would be the only way to crossover with NTP (NTP already has 101s, and apparently is getting its own 08) yet the 37/5s don't even exist in NTP's time, and railfreight sectors really don't exist in NTP's time...This route is stuck on its own.

    Yet even on its own '89 and the trains included still don't make sense. The route feels like its set in 1990-something due to the trainload 37, yet like it's set in early 1980-something due to the 101. Knowing how the 37 is the star of the show, that leads me to believe the route is actually set in the early 90s but they simultaneously didn't want to leave out passengers and didn't want to make a pacer (two very conflicting desires for the 90s) so they just defaulted to the 101 and claimed that its '89...at the expense of sanity. It seems the 101 and trainload 37s were around in 1989 but were in the minority compared to the pacer and railfreight large loco 37s. So, in an effort to justify the coexistence of both units, the route was backed into a very odd corner which has upset many folks. GG.

    If I made this route, I would probably have done like 1985-ish with the same trains, but instead of the trainload 37/5, do a good old un-rebuilt 37/0. That would work with NTP and avoid the pacer complaints. Though I guess with 89 the pacer can be introduced later. That just doesn't seem worth choosing a really odd year though.
     
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  8. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    It’s $29.99 on consoles. I’d love to be able to save 20% for pre-ordering. I’m assuming when they announce a release date pre-orders will go up? I guess I never realized WSR is 27 miles. I’m thinking the 29 miles of TVL is going to be dense compared to other routes with a lot of freight being moved along those rails.
     
  9. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Member

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    Hi all

    As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t matter what year, as long as I’m having fun.
    In terms of length , I prefer a short and well made road with fun rather than a long and boring road.
    I also hope to have a class142.
    I also hope to be able to use it on the Trans pen
     
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  10. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Active Member

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    Even I'm a German I like the TVL. Especially the 37/5 with freight services in the industry yards will be my favorite. And the 1989 time is okay, so we have much more rails and freight action there as in the present.

    It's like here in Germany. We lost a lot of routes and freight rolling
    stock sind the 1990's here.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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  11. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I think I might get this sometime.
     
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  12. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    Well, I agree partly with what you say, however, and of course this cannot be verified until the route is actually released, but, back in the days Darlington was electrified in 1991/2, and there were vast changes across the Teesside/Cleveland areas on the railway, the British Steel Corporation of course was once a Nationalised industry, but, it was privatised in 1988, so, as this is a diesel route it has to constructed for pre-1991 era, after that, the coal mines had closed down and industrial areas had slimmed down owing to iron ore processing cuts, pit shutdowns and the Eston Steel Plant closure, of course, we won't know how much of the industrial areas we can actually drive on until the route comes out, it all sounds very good, it just depends on what DTG deliver to the community. BSC Redcar had 70 furnaces running along for 10 miles back in the 1960s/70s, it was the second largest steelworks in Europe, I'll be interested to see if they have lit it up at night with that dark red/orange glow, that could be a spectacular sight.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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  13. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Active Member

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    It would be very nice if DTG enable the use of the class 45 and 47 on TVL. The use of class 52 would be nice too. But I think it will be unrealistic, because it was not used in TVL in real.
     
  14. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    Ermmm, all the Class 45s had been withdrawn by the end of 1988, only 2 members survived into 1989 and they had both gone by February, and as you say the ''Westerns' never ran in the North East on daily workings, especially, in this heavily industrialised area.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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  15. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Do you think this route will have AWS? Unlike NTP which is a few years earlier.
     
  16. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Member

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    Well on NTP, not even the streetlights, housing/industrial areas light up at night, so I wouldn't get your hopes up, unless they've managed to do it in this route, here's hoping......
     
  17. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    Hmmm, I would like to think so, it's 1989 and we're driving a Class37/5 and even the DMU Class101 has an AWS button on the desk, so, I don't see why it can't be included, depends if DTG have done it, that's the thing.
     
  18. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    Yes, I am hoping with fingers crossed, but, you're quite correct about the NTP, however, they've done it with the German and American routes haven't they, so, no reason why they can't really do it with this one, I assume resources will be the biggest issue.
     
  19. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Active Member

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    Do you have an idea how long the freight trains will be and is there a chance that the Class 37 and 08 and the freight cars will come to NTP too.

    I hope the engine sound of the "tractor" is such impressive like in real.
     
  20. RommieG

    RommieG New Member

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    As others have said, the paint-scheme and Class 37 variant did not exist in 1983, so it is exceedingly unlikely that they would put it on NTP.
     
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  21. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    Freight trains in that area weren't that long, apart from the MGR coal trains, they are very heavy of course, with all the steel ingots and coils and plates, weight was far more important, they were restricted as to how many wagons they could get into their customer's premises, of course, which is why a Class 08 shunter is a godsend as they can split train consists up accordingly and then put them together for a mainline loco to haul them out to Thornaby Yard, or, even across to Darlington. The ICI Wilton tank trains were TTAs so again upto about 15 wagons per train with a barrier wagon at each end, or, a Railfreight VDA van, there were also coal trains, cements, iron ore and mixed goods trains for the various yards at Middlesbrough and Eaglescliffe and all the blast furnaces.
    There's no reason why the Class 08 shunter can't be utilised on the NTP in future, it is BR Blue already, but, the class 37/5 would need a lot of work on it to turn it into a 37/0, especially, the nose, headcode boxes, grills, radiator, boiler, fuel tanks, etc, etc, it can be achieveable, they have the base model already.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  22. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Active Member

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    Thank you very much for your answer. It was very informative.
     
  23. Shukal

    Shukal Well-Known Member

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    These inconsitencies bother me a lot less than on RSN though, which just flat out had rolling stock (the Dostos) which was never used there at all. And while the 143 was used there about 15 years ago, the line seems to be set somewhere around 2016/2017 and has changed a lot since the 2000s (mainly the stations).

    Also in the year GWE is set there were way more trains in FGW livery than in GWR livery.
     
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  24. NorthRail1

    NorthRail1 Well-Known Member

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    Ruhr Sieg Nord was very inconsistent. I think part of the reasoning behind the 4th Generation Doppelstockwagen was that it could easily be re-used in later DLC, such as the DB BR 182 dlc. It would also be less time consuming than making both a 3rd Generation Doppelstockwagen for the Iserlohner service and n-Wagen for the Hagen-Siegen services. 15 years ago was also around the introduction of the DB BR 185.2, meaning it would have been much less common then. The inconsistencies on that route were probably just to make it easier to build and re-use locomotives and rolling stock later with the BR 185.2, BR 767.2 and several of the freight wagons being re-used in later dlc.

    With Great Western Express, the reason behind only the new Great Western Railway livery may have been licensing. Great Western Railway may not have wanted the old First Great Western livery due to the re-branding.

    Hopefully in the future, routes can feature more realistic locomotives and rolling stock. Ruhr Sieg Nord is a particularly bad example of mixing up eras (and stuff that never went there) and the Tees Valley Line has a mix of locomotives that seem rather out of place for 1989, with the BR Class 101 being retired from service then and Trainload sector liveries only just being introduced.
     
  25. Shukal

    Shukal Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. RSN as we got it would only be realistic with Abellio (which DTG don't have a license for) FLIRTs instead of the BR 143 + dostos.
     
  26. Thelonius16

    Thelonius16 Active Member

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    The reason I won’t buy this on release is that I don’t feel like I’ve finished exploring NTP. I will wait for the inevitable sale. Was definitely prepared to buy a US route though.
     
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  27. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    Its nice to have another UK route but it must be frustrating due to the UKs operating structure, too many TOCs where most other countries are state owned so getting licences you have have to deal with one party BUT they could of done a modern route with previous operator colours. Or colours without the branding? Surely.

    I am just tired of seeing old UK, it gives other people the impression the UK has nothing modern to offer the simulation world.... I am a UK resident and I find it disheartening hence why I only own GWE.

    I am patiently waiting for a modern route, we've had plenty proposals, its good they are listening but I still think we could have a modern route without the TOC branding.

    Hopefully there's an editor soon so I can crack on with others on here and make a modern route
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  28. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    Not at all, my pleasure. I found this photograph a little while ago, you could search on the internet for some others, but, one of the famous freight trains on the railway network back in the 1980s, was 6M47, which was the loaded Steel coils working from BSC Lackenby down to BSC Corby in Northamptonshire, about 340 miles round trip, generally hauled by double-headed diesel locomotives it ran daily and had anything from between 18 - 28 BAA freight wagons, which isn't very long but the train got up to a trailing weight of around 1,800 tons, which was quite a good loading in those days, and they ran 2 trains a day Monday - Friday, always a spectacular sound and sight for photographers and trainspotters.

    http://www.hondawanderer.com/37193_37071_Ratciffe-on-Soar_1985.htm
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well they would only have to head over to TS1 and see there are plenty of routes set in the "modern world". I think it is great to be able to simulate what has gone before, not what you can still travel on today. I am sure there will be a procession of modern UK routes to come so it is nice to have some backdated routes for a change!
     
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  30. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    Yes, BUT, what is your interpretation of a modern route, something from the 1970s/80s/90s from the BR era, or, something after 1997 in the privatised era, even the Class 158 DMU's are probably now ''vintage'' as they were built in 1992. We've all said it before to maximise profits DTG have to have variety, so, we must have both freight and passenger trains, but, there is no freight on the railways today as it's virtually all gone now, all we have nowadays are infrastructure permanent way trains, stone and ballast aggregates, the odd imported coal working and Containertrains from depot to depot and port to port.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  31. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Im currently looking at google images of class 37/5s in original railfreight grey from 1986. Is it such a stretch to offer up this livery and make them available to NTP?
     
  32. Wolfy

    Wolfy Active Member

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    Would have preferred an electrified route this time around, so we can actually see our first UK electric locomotives in TSW.

    i am specifically waiting to see classes 81 to 85 / 86 / 87 / 89 / 90 / 92 / 304 / 309 / 310 / 312 / APT

    And if the APT is anything like the one in TS20xx, i will be a VERY happy camper.... but please clean the windscreen this time. :D
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  33. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    But, we've already established that NTP was set in 1983, there was no such thing as trainload sectors back then and no refurbished 37/5 locos, so, it won't happen!!!!!
     
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  34. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to be honest. I'm not really that hyped about the Tees Calley Line and probably won't buy it. I'm an American railfan so I naturally love American trains. But when I say the US hasn't had many dlc you can't say I'm biased because it's true. Germany has the 2 locomotive dlc, and 3 routes. The UK has 2 locomotive dlc and 4 routes. While the US has 3 routes (keep in mind consoles only have 2) and 1 locomotive dlc. Please enlighten me on how that's fair.
     
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  35. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    No sectors, but railfreight livery and 37/5s about in 1986. 3! 3 years after NTP is “set”. Did anything change on that route in the time between?
     
  36. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes but I suspect if you won't be able to make that point in another two or three months! There have been a flurry of German releases, now it looks like some UK releases and presumably next it will be some USA releases. I am sure it isn't some anti USA conspiracy!
     
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  37. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well I don't know if NTP would have received AWS by 1986, certainly not long after. A lot of the class 47's on NTP had received large logo blue by then which I would love to see.
     
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  38. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    But this Tees Valley Line is set in 1989 during the TRAINLOAD FREIGHT SECTOR period, which commenced in October 1988, it's different to the old Railfreight liveries, TLF, as it was known, only lasted from 1988 until 1994 when it was split up into 3 other divisions Trans-Rail, Mainline Freight and Load-Haul. None of the refurbished 37/5 locomotives were given any of the TLF liveries until after it was formed in 1988, I don't have a complete list of all those 37/5s that were given Coal, Petroleum, Steel, or, Construction paintjobs.
    Loco 37501, for example, was allocated to the FMTY - Freight Metals Thornaby Pool on 1st January 1989, along with several other sister locomotives 37/6 and 37/7, but, not all of them had TLF liveries, many of them still adorned the Railfreight Grey Large logo and Red Stripe liveries until many of them were withdrawn in 1994, and those that were left were then repainted into the EWS livery after 1994.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trainload_Freight

    On the NTP route which is set around 1983, all of the Class 45 'Peak' locomotives had started to be withdrawn after 1983, the last 2 went in February 1989. I'm trying to find a cabride DVD of the line in this period, I'm pretty sure it would have had AWS active as it was a major route from the West of England (Liverpool/Manchester across to the East onto the ECML and Hull and Immingham areas). Many of us veterans are hoping that a Class 25 and/or a 40 would be made available for this route (as DLC packs) as they were both seen daily in this time period, however, both of these loco classes had all been withdrawn by 1985/6.

    There is nothing to stop anyone from imagining their route is set in any particular time period, NTP could be any time from 1983 - 88, this Tees Valley Line could be between 1989 and 1991, as the Darlington area including the station and the ECML was all electrified by 1992, we all have imaginations and as long as the locomotives were still around and in the right livery, and all the railway infrastructure and Company buildings, factories, and warehouses were still in situ, you can have the route in any year you wish, it's your game!
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  39. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    If I recall 37501 was named Teeside Steelmaster and painted in a special British Steel blue at one point, would be lovely to see that reskin at some point.
     
  40. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    4F42D734-F93A-4BF7-BAE9-F2513E71CB65.jpeg A simple reskin the older railfreight livery
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  41. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It looks like a class 40 will be supplied going by what was accidentally revealed on Discord. A 25 would be my favourite DLC. A 31 would be very suitable also both for passenger and freight/parcels also.
     
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  42. Mkdog45

    Mkdog45 Well-Known Member

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    Any more news on the release?
     
  43. Shukal

    Shukal Well-Known Member

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    Yeah a Class 40 was leaked in the game files.
     
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  44. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    The only people that can answer that are DTG, we're just the customers, we don't know what's being developed until it gets announced!!!
     
  45. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    Oh, excellent news, thanks for that Peter, you've made my day.
     
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  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It appears someone disagrees however!

    I can't take credit for finding out this knowledge, I am just a passer on. It made my day too however. I am hoping the 40 might appear on the odd passenger service too as even in 1983 it wasn't impossible, I have an Audicord tape to prove it.
     
  47. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    All Class 40s were withdrawn by the 22nd January 1985, Peter, and of the 19 left in service at that time I think about 10 of them were allocated to Manchester Longsight, so, you'd bound to see something in the Manchester Victoria/Huddersfield/Leeds area, I'm sure.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  48. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Must admit I hadn't considered the passenger operations - I'll certainly make sure it is substitutable :)
     
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  49. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    That's great, thanks.

    There is an interesting article here about loco hauled trans-pennine services

    https://www.railexpress.co.uk/953/trans-pennine-loco-hauled-remembered/

    It talks about the class 40 involvement on trans-pennine services up to 1984. I talks about services from Liverpool to Scarborough and also some trans-pennine services not going to Liverpool but also onto the North Wales coast line. These might be a reason to add more passenger services to service mode?!

    One other question will be it possible to have the 3 car class 101 on NTP and maybe the 2 car class 101 on the Tees Valley?
     
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  50. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Yes I have been starting to think about what a layer on NTP for Tees stock might look like - no promises though, but yes it is on my mind.
     
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