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Throttle/ammeter Incorrect With All Diesel Locos

Discussion in 'Known Issues & Bug Reports' started by Leland M, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. Leland M

    Leland M New Member

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    I bought this game a few weeks back and have done about 20 hours in it so far. As a locomotive engineer for a Class III line in the USA, Ive noticed that the throttle behavior is really wonky in this game which surprised me because of the touted realism. But the behavior is so different from reality, it really has me puzzled. Diesel electric locos work in a way that when the throttle is opened the ammeter gauge will show a positive indication regardless of the speed of the locomotive. It will accelerate, even in Notch 1, until the drag of the train or the wind force equals the force applied by the traction motors and the train stops accelerating and maintains its speed, but the ammeter will still show a small positive indication. The only real exception is the needle will jump around if the loco is slipping on wet rails. But a train that is travelling at 25 or 55 miles per hour or any speed should show a positive ammeter indication in Notch 1 or Notch 8, or anywhere in between. At higher power settings it will accelerate and at lower throttle positions it will decellerate, but still show a postive reading.

    Now how it works in the game is so wrong because the loco will accelerate up to a set speed and then the amps fall off and go to zero. That's not right. This poses problems because at higher speeds, say 40 or 50 mph, you have a choice only between notch 5 or 6, with notch 5 providing ZERO amps and 6 providing a very high number. So the only way to maintain speed of the train is to toggle between zero and flooring it. If it worked like that in the real world you'd have trains splitting in half on every trip. In real life, on level track, you accelerate in notch 5-8 and then when you get up to track speed you bring the power back to notch 1-3 and the slight postive ammeter reading provides just enough power to the rails to equal the drag from the wheels and the wind and you maintain speed.

    So I hope I made that clear. In this game as it is right now it's TOTALLY unrealistic. No loco works like this. Please fix this. You know the really strange part is that it works correctly in TS2018 for some locos but not this new game.

    Leland M
    Locomotive Engineer BLET, AANL Northeastern Region
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
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  2. Leland M

    Leland M New Member

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    I just got contacted by someone who said this has been a bug that has been brought up a number of times since the game launched a year ago! Doh!

    James or DTG is this going to be fixed? And if so, when?
     
  3. Jef-F

    Jef-F Active Member

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    Yep, you are at least third real engineer that raises this question. We'll see if it gets fixed in GP-38 in upcoming NEC route or it will just migrate from Sand Patch as bugged as it is.
     
  4. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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    I expect a copy & paste GP38 from the sand patch to the NEC DLC without any changes.
    Sad that DTG don't get first the basics correct before copy & paste all the mistakes to more DLC.
     
  5. Leland M

    Leland M New Member

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    That would be really unfortunate and would spell the end of hope for this game to ever be a simulator. It's just arcadeish as it stands right now. Even Microsoft Train Sim from nearly 18 years ago got this particular aspect right. :(

    I think they stand to lose a lot of true rail fans if they dont fix it soon.
     
  6. Shukal

    Shukal Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  7. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Active Member

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    Thank you for bringing this up. Several of us have been beating this drum since the game was in Beta but it has yet to be fixed, perhaps the more of us that complain hopefully something will be done about it, especially since you actually operate locomotives.

    One thing that I've noticed, and this happened after a recent update, the locomotives seem WAY too powerful in the lower notches, even notch 1. I've never operated a locomotive but I've watched plenty of them, even running light with no cars it seems they usually notch up to 2 or 3 just to get moving. In TSW just 1 locomotive with several cars will take off and accelerate quickly just in notch 1.

    Dovetail, please acknowledge this problem, and do the smart thing, reach out to the OP, someone that actually knows what they are talking about and make this a true "Simulator" which it claims to be, it is the reason most of us buy this game in the first place.
     
  8. Leland M

    Leland M New Member

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    "GP38 is an optimised version of the one on sand patch -but functionally the same, and has the same physics characteristics. I have a slightly longer term plan to fix the diesel electric physics"
    Who said this?
     
  9. Leland M

    Leland M New Member

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    StratPlayer62, If I remember correctly it seemed the starting amperage was way too high in the game and might account for this. Yes, generally I think you are right. A light locomotive or one with a few cars CAN get up and go pretty quickly though. I'll have to fire up the game again and check this particular aspect.
     
  10. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    It is true that the early notches are too powerful. I remember that was a very very early "improvement" to the physics. "People are complaining that notch 1 only goes up to 10 mph? Well, let's make notch 1 faster!" is basically what that felt like. They totally missed the point and thought that such a silly change would appease everyone. The problem with making notch 1 faster though, is that they did nothing to the physics system...where power and max speed are tied together. So yeah, they made notch 1 faster. But they also made spew out about 3x as much power! By increasing the speed of the lower notches, they just created more problems....
     
  11. Corvan

    Corvan Well-Known Member

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    Matt Peddlesden, Senior Producer for TSW. We were chatting to him last night on Discord about it.
     
  12. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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    So now we get again different versions for each DLC like in the old TS or will the sand patch locos updated too?
     
  13. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Active Member

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    This is exactly what I observed with the "Update"
     
  14. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Active Member

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    I sure hope not......
     
  15. Scotty

    Scotty New Member

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    I am also very bothered by how this is implemented. Jay or Matt when will this be fixed? We've been literally waiting 12 months now.

    In my view it really spoils the whole immersion factor when the driving quality is so far off from reality. I'm getting ready to dump this sim because of this one thing.
     
  16. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    It’s been longer than 12 months really, as the public beta in December had this problem, and it was called out back then. And then it might have even come up before then, so it could be 14 months or more that its been a known issue. The response recently has been ‘we have a fix but need to impliment it’ and for some reason the implimenting is seemingly more difficult than building a new route. It’s true though, the Talent 2 has correct implementation, but it still has yet to be put on anything else...
     
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  17. Scotty

    Scotty New Member

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    It's all so disappointing. They are so close to this being such a great sim, but the tiny bit they miss it with bugs like this one, it just totally breaks the immersion and destroys the fun. It's like baking the worlds most aesthetically pleasing cake, and realizing once it's all done that you forgot to put in the sugar. Yeah it looks fantastic but once you take a bite you'll tire of it really quickly. TSW is currently a cake without sugar. And best case scenario is they've spent 12-14 months trying to inject sugar into the bitter cake to make it at least palatable at some point. Worst case scenario is they drag this fix out until it's completely stale and everyone has walked away.
     
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  18. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Active Member

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    Very well put.

    I realize they need to release new content to keep the cash flow going so the employees can get paid etc, but Dovetail needs to put more importance on fixing bugs than they currently are, I really think they would be better off in the long run. If they would at least acknowledge these problems and keep us updated on fixing it that would help. With the currently level of communication it really seems like they just don't care, but I really hope that is not the case.
     
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  19. Leland M

    Leland M New Member

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    Stratplayer62 and Scotty, I couldnt have said it better myself. Well said. And I agree they really need to put WAY more effort into fixing bugs. When customers see they fix bugs, it's an incentive to keep buying. When bugs dont get fixed in a timely manner (to the project managers and owners of DTG, hint....12 months is absurd!) you break trust with your customers....
     
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  20. Scotty

    Scotty New Member

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    Leland I agree completely. It blows my mind that an organization the size of DTG (just looking at their behind the scenes videos for a sense of their size) is so bass akward when it comes to organization and bug fixing, not to mention customer support, is mind numbing. Is it Paul Jackson who's still operating this headless chicken or has he moved on? What's the deal? Crazy...

    BTW I sent Jay a polite message on this forum asking if he can weigh in on this thread and have heard literally nothing from him. So, there you go.
     
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  21. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Active Member

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    How long ago did you contact Jay? I would think Dovetail would be very interesting in hearing from someone that knows what they are talking about. Not trying to complain here, I really like TS and TSW, but these types of flaws REALLY are a disappointment. Dovetail please, if you really want to make this a simulator, then let us know that you are working to fix it. If you honestly don't care, please stop calling it a Simulator, and just call it a "Game".
     
  22. Kuu Lightwing

    Kuu Lightwing Active Member

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    So, wait, am I reading Matt's response right? Doesn't that mean that the upcoming patch is not going to fix the issue either?

    You know, I gave the team the benefit of a doubt, I hoped they would eventually fix it, and I even thought that maybe it's supposed to work this way? (pschlik is the witness!) Who knows, diesel-electric transmission is not the simplest thing ever. But no, I was wrong, and it's taking way too long. Several major updates came out since I bought the game, things got broken and fixed, and Matt (and Jay) both keep saying that this is being worked on. Frankly I feel like I'm being deceived.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  23. Jef-F

    Jef-F Active Member

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    It looks more and more likely for Sand Patch to become sort of tech demo left in the dust never to be fixed. XBone release with GWE as base route supports this even more.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  24. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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    Jep looks like DTG set the focus more and more to the Xbox.
    Degrading details and graphics was just the beginning of it.
    Abandoning CSX sand patch is the next step I guess.
    Well with focus on Xbox there is also no need for an editor. Problem solved ;-)
     
  25. Kuu Lightwing

    Kuu Lightwing Active Member

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    I mean, they are reusing a Sand Patch locomotive in new DLC. So they cannot abandon it completely.
     
  26. Jef-F

    Jef-F Active Member

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    Hold my beer.

    Seriously though, they say they'll fix diesel traction, and I believe they will. They weren't saying they'll fix first CSX locos, though, and I think they won't.
     
  27. Kuu Lightwing

    Kuu Lightwing Active Member

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    I mean... we have 6 diesel-electric locomotives, and four of them are the CSX ones. The only "new" one we know of is reused GP38-2. From all the locomotives, this is probably the most likely to receive a fix - after all, it's a part of new content. I suppose with GWE coming to x-box fixing Class 66 and Class 43 is equally important... I don't know. Maybe that's too much logic.
     
  28. Scotty

    Scotty New Member

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    StratPlayer62, you asked how long ago I contacted Jay. It's been 6 days now. Still nothing.
     
  29. Scotty

    Scotty New Member

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    Just an update - still nothing from anyone at DTG. Just crickets. :|
     
  30. jENKS

    jENKS New Member

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    Jay, when will this be fixed? Don't say "they're working on it". You cant say "they're working on it" for over a year. That's ludicrous, especially considering you've been doing it the right way with Train Simulator TS20xx for almost 10 years now. How are you suddenly so lost?

    We want an actual update, as in "The team is working on modelling the tractive effort curves for each notch" or "they are still scratching their heads and having office parties each day "

    If you cant give an update, contact who can and get us one please.
     
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  31. Duncan Odgers

    Duncan Odgers New Member

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    Hi Dovetail,

    Please please fix this or at least communicate what is happening the community have been mentioning this Throttle and Physics bug since release. DTGJAY did mention on a steam post that apparently a fix was found and in testing but that was like over 6 weeks ago and then nothing?!?! If you could only improve Simulgraph and those Physics that have been not right since day 1 couple that with some lighting bugs that have already been mentioned and you are on to a winner. IF you want to SELL DLC till the cows come home, trust me you have a willing community but NOT if these bugs seemingly get ignored or communication dries up.

    Martin the community have written over 28 pages on Steam about these bugs and nothing! Everyone wants a decent authentic train sim like Mr Jackson dreamt of but it is far from that. Just more DLC :( The latest one coming doesn't even have steam!

    I have bought ALL TSW titles except the last NYC one because you don't "seem" interested in fixing old issues.

    Kind regards

    Duncan Odgers
     

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