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Train Sim World 2 - Cathcart Commuter

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, May 27, 2021.

  1. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    SimRail hasn't gone on sale yet, so we don't know whether they have any licenses for their rolling stock/stations yet. We have only seen very early development shots, and it is absolutely no surprise that these are unbranded.

    Given their connections with real railway industry, at a professional level as a real supplier to the industry, I think there is a fairly good chance that the SimRail guys will be able to negotiate any relevant licenses they want - and I suspect that these are already in place, and were put in place long before they started coding.

    But you are right - if the trains are unbranded, then they will be very much less attractive. It seems that quite a few companies have been able to get branding, so it would be a very big surprise to me if the SimRail guys fall at the last hurdle on this issue, whereas all of the others have been able to get what they need, as if by magic.
     
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  2. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    We will see which game will have more success. I will stay with TSW. If you use it right you can have a lot authenticity with this simulation.
     
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  3. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I agree that having branding is a big plus but if they do release a public editor from the start then it will not matter if the trains have branding or not. I'm amazed at the stuff the player base does in TSW's livery editor especially at how restricted it is. And then at the mods released for TSW2 where there is support for it.

    Everyone is entitled to their own purchases but if Simrail did support UK routes and there was an editor which was being supported also I would be tempted.
     
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  4. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Mostly if a game does not have the brands at the game covers and advertisings, than is it most likely that it will not have it. You could see that with "Real Farm" and so on.
     
  5. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    If the modding tool would be so important for the majority of the TSW community, we would have it already. But people with jobs want to use a game like their car. Choosing a route and starting it. Not building your train or paint it self before. Even a real traindriver is not a train manufacturer or a train painter. :)
     
  6. J.T.

    J.T. Active Member

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    First of all, I apologize to everyone for initiating this off-topic discussion! :P
    Well ... yes and no :)

    I agree with you about brands on trains. And there is indeed no carrier logo on the Pendolino train and on the old steam locomotive. But some other shots show the "PKP Cargo" logo on the blue Class EU-07 locomotive as well as the "Polregio" logo on the PESA Elf 34WE train. There is also the PKP logo on the old green Class EU-07 locomotive...

    Let's hope that the developers are in the process of licensing talks with carriers, so that players don't have to crack the game themselves, as was the case with BNSF trains in the European edition of Marias Pass DLC for Train Simulator ;)
    Anyway, let's be honest, it were the community modders, not DTG, that gave us many branded badges for the AC440CW, SD40-2 and GP38-2 locomotives in TSW :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
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  7. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    It's not the Pendolino only. The Highspeed train that should simulate a Shinkanzen is unbranded too. And with licenses of the polish railways only you could imagine which success the game will have. And moddings have their cons too. I remember on the problems with them after an game update.

    My intention of the answer to your post was to show that not TSW2 only have some weakpooints and even your alternative Simrail2021 has some weak spots. Even if it is in real or in a simulaton, nothing is perfect.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
  8. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I think you will find that DTG have stated many times they will not release an editor for TSW2 as they want to protect licences even though it was available for TS1. If you look at the unofficial mods that are available for TSW2 you will see the demand for yourself.
     
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  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yes because it's more iconic, much longer in terms of length of services and wouldn't bore me. Heck there have been many requests for the Londom Underground Circle Line. Not many or any requests for Cathcart before it was announced.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
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  10. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Cor yeah, I'd take the circle line over CC, take my money now!
     
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  11. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    You have right. But the licenses where only one explanation. Sam explained often enough in the Road Map streams that the modding tool is something only a minority of the customers want. And I can agree with that completely. I simply have not enough time for creating my own trains, routes and time tables.
     
  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well if the devs of sim rail build actual simulators for real railway companies then I hope it is a good and potentially proper sim.
     
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  13. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I think you are missing the point. It would be the talented ones in the community sharing there creations either paid or free. I don't mind dropping a couple of quid or so as I have the artistic talent of a slug! The people using this would be far from a minority, look at TS1 but then with better graphics. MODS are not for everyone but one thing they do is they keep the game alive for years to come given the right tools available, look at 'Fallout' for example.
     
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  14. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    That is no guarantee. In my professional live I saw and see a lot of business software partiell specifically customized for us customers. And there was no software without weak spots. Some had more some less.
     
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  15. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps it will come with official licenses. I would be suprised if it didn't considering the connections the devs have to the railway companies that they make actual sims for
     
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  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I know that not everything is perfect but I do hope Simrail can be a good product for what it's trying to be
     
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  17. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    With that what we have with TSW2 now we have a lot of replay ability. 24 routes, around 60 locos and cabcars and around 50 types of passenger and freight cars. So you need modsupport only if DTG will release no additional Dlc's for the future.
     
  18. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    I think all developers do their best with the resources, and even time is a ressource, they have. But nobody and nothing will be without mistakes. Even if it is TSW2 or Simrail2021.
     
  19. J.T.

    J.T. Active Member

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    Are you suggesting that players only want to play with trains from their own country? Do you think that only Americans, English and Germans play TSW? If so, you're wrong :)

    Since so many Europeans enjoy playing with American trains (almost exclusively from the US), why shouldn't they have as much fun driving Polish trains?

    Honestly, right now I'm more familiar with the signaling on the American railroad (at least the one used by NS and CSX) than with the European signaling :D And if an interesting Argentine railroad simulator came out, free from the inadequacy of TSW, I would love to drive virtual train in Patagonia!

    The Polish railroad is quite similar to many other railways in central and southern Europe. This gives a chance that railway fans will finally have the opportunity to drive trains in countries other than the USA, UK and Germany.

    I have no illusions that Simrail2021 will be perfect. However, it may have what I miss in TSW :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
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  20. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I respectfully disagree. Many players only buy certain routes and as we have seen there are things in nearly all the routes people would love to tweak if allowed to do so instead of relying on unofficial mods. Take the recent Diesels legends pack of the supposedly 70's for example. People have stated that they didn't buy the pack as the 101 was in the wrong livery or the track, overhead cables were not there in that era.

    I was one of them until I found some mods that did this for me and for me is one of my favourite routes in TSW2, just imagine if this was supported? And take Cathcart Circle as a prime example. You have to pay full price for a smaller route, one train and one livery. It was said in the stream that they even did not pick the more popular livery.

    So just for arguments sake lets say DTG decided to support the sharing and editing of liveries for example. DO you think Cathcart Circle would have more re-playability with its one livery or with two liveries thanks to a modder?
     
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  21. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    The question which countries are in a product is an economic decision of the developing company. And the company will use research tools that show them what the community most want. And that's why DTG chose USA, GB, Fr, D, Switzerland mainly. The background of choosing main countries is that DTG's resources have limits too. If they would create routes from each country, they would have to do the signals always new and so on.
     
  22. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    Especially in the German Forums, there are a lot of people who just want german content. The route itself can look stunning or be perfectly realistic, as long as it isnt in Germany, they wont buy it.
    Of course this does not apply for everyone there, and certainly everyone who doesnt live in the US UK or Germany (and maybe France and Switzerland) wants content from their own countries too, but right now TSW has way to few DLC to include other, presumably lesser known our popular contries. The first DLC for TS 2012 were also within the same ,,big three", and the vast majority of content for it still is and always will be.
    May simrail will Focus on the polish market, but they also wont have a bigger variety, they offer an alternative country compared to TSW. i'd guess we're also years away from German or british Sim Rail routes, as we are in TSW with countrys apart from the existing ones.
     
  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh I know that. But I hope Simrail offers something new as a product
     
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  24. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't sound very European of you, lol. Saying that I only buy UK routes mainly because I could not afford all the other ones anyway but I can't speak for Germans but there are plenty of US and UK players that buy routes from all over. The UK youtubers buy all the routes so I wouldn't say everyone is as Nationalistic as yourself.

    If Simrail does concentrate on the Polish market at the start of their release that does not make it a bad game, if the game is good people will buy it as they will the Diesel RailCar Sim (UK) I'm sure stuff will get released down the line if there is a call for it. I remember DTG saying that they would welcome competition but I wonder if they would feel the same way if SimRail/Diesel RailCar started to make an impact?
     
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  25. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously Tom Fresco is a generalizing a bit too much. A lot of people are either just passionate about trains in general, or they prefer other things rather than country (for example some people might enjoy express pax service, NEC or GWE doesn't matter).

    But, from both my personal experience and DTG's choices and what they told us during some streams, it's not idiocy the fact that a decent number of people almost exclusively like things that are "close" to them, for example, a lot of german people that are into simulators are generally young, that's why a lot of German routes are modern, to satisfy the german market, while some british routes are in the '70s so that they make happy that portion of the older railfanning and train spotting community (remember how they made a big deal about each Class 52 having it's own plaque, and there was a document with all the names you could cross once you've see them).

    Here in Italy, much of the train simming died with the introduction of RW. And A LOT of people are still using MSTS/OR because it's the only simulator that has a lot of italian content. RW only has a handful (even is extremely well made) italian add-ons, many of them are free as well, but it's nothing compared to MSTS, and as far as I know there are people still creating stuff for MSTS, 20 years after it launched!

    I think there is a big opportunity to include more people by including more places.

    I'm about 99% sure another French route is not far away, but (unless some third party takes thing into their own hands) DTG will not get into any other country before releasing at least 2 or 3 more French DLCs
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
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  26. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all of your post. I am very much looking forward to seeing Polish railways in a decent railway sim. I understand that there will also be quite a lot of Polish route miles in their first release. And they are implementing steam on their first outing......!

    Once they've boxed-in what they know the most about, and have a platform to build from, then I am fairly sure that they will move very rapidly into the German market.

    NB: I also strongly suspect that the SimRail diesel/electric rolling stock will come with working lights on the front, as standard, unlike the Class 314 on Cathcart (to bring this back on topic.... ;-) ).
     
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  27. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    upload_2021-6-7_8-16-38.png

    I think the designers misread the brief. Surely it should be a donkey, not a monkey.
     
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  28. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I reckon SimRail will take a fairly decent shot at being an authentic simulator, but there are a few areas (unknowns) where they could fall short, such as:

    - do they know how to make a game, with user friendly UI and controls...?;
    - are they geared up for customer support for non-professional clients (gamers....!).....?; and,
    - will they anticipate the vast array of different PC builds....?

    But if they do make a swish simulator, that is user friendly and works on most systems, and they provide things like manuals, and commit to fixing bugs, etc.... then they will over-take DTG quite quickly in the railway sim market... because all other things being equal, that user experience and building of trust is really quite important. And if SimRail gets that right, on top of everything else, then why would anyone bother continuing with TS2012 or TSW.......?

    Time will tell.
     
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  29. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I can see Simrail being the main PC game/sim with TSW concentrating mainly on consoles, which I understand is their biggest market anyway. I can’t see TSW giving up on the PC market but, depending on variety of routes and trains, Simrail looks like it might be a market leader on PC.
     
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  30. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, time will tell. I’m looking forward to seeing it even though I won’t be buying it. If it doesn’t have UK, German or Swiss routes then no matter how good it is, It’s not for me.

    I’m just hoping it provides competition for DTG as in my view that can only be a good thing.
     
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  31. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    SimRail need to come to Console also
     
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  32. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Could discussions about Simrail/geographic preferences of players have their own threads perhaps and this thread return to being solely about Cathcart? That’s a whole page now with barely a mention of it.
     
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  33. animalkosmik

    animalkosmik Well-Known Member

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    Who is stopping them from using the free Polish railroad simulator?

    https://eu07.pl/?setlang=en
     
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  34. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Sim Rail said on discord that they will implement brands into the liviries. The game is still in development, but really looking forward to it, because it will be a simulator and not an arcade hobby.
     
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  35. apophis55

    apophis55 Member

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    Could the mods intervene and bring this back on topic

    Thanks in advance.
     
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  36. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This thread is about Glasgow Cathcart Commuter, NOT SimRail or any other off-topic talk. Create or use another thread if you want to talk about that stuff, not this thread.
     
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  37. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Just chill out guys ahahahaha
     
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  38. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    I think some people in that forum criticize each mistake in TSW even if it is a very little mistake. And the same people praising a game of a future railsimulator game from an other developer. And all they know from the other game is a 3 minutes in game video and some advertising articles. And there are a lot of questions about that competitor product (licensing of other railway operators than PKP and so on). I think that's contradictionary.
     
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  39. J.T.

    J.T. Active Member

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    Once again, I would like to apologize for starting offtopic discussion and hijacking this thread.

    However, it came straight from what we saw at the Cathcart Commuter DLC route presentation, and from the frustration that DTG once again severely fails our expectations and doesn't keep its promises. At least some of us think so.
    I really don't think we can call "very little mistakes" things like: skipping 80% of the rail traffic on the recreated route (as AI traffic of course), neglecting the functionality of the train's headlights, not checking whether the speed limits given by the HUD are the same as the signs by the tracks, or not making sure that the trains available for the player in the timatable have enough motive power to be able to cover the route... .

    As a "very little mistakes" could be considered passengers sitting on trains parked on sidings at night or neglecting that each train has an EOTD at the end (not at the front of the leading locomotive) .

    And how would you qualify passengers standing on the roof of a train or passengers falling from the sky in a DLC released a year and a half ago? Is it a big or small mistake a year and a half after releasing the product? They didn't have time to fix it? But somehow they had enough time to develop new paid DLCs and two new core TSW builds?
     
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  40. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Where have DTG missed 80% of the rail traffic on the Cathcart Circle line?!
     
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  41. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Most of the feedback I have seen about the route has been positive. I wish some people wouldn't try to become the community spokesperson.

    Personally I think it looks good as does the unit, personally I am not sure it will hold my interest for long so it is likely to be a sales purchase for me.

    As for the lights, British trains of the period did not have lights to light up the track in front of the driver, they were there to be visible by those outside the train.

    As for the complaints of the lack of AI traffic at Glasgow Central, anyone who thinks DTG are going to build a AI Pendolino and a couple of other units just to make a short section of track appear busy, need to have a reality check, quite frankly!
     
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  42. J.T.

    J.T. Active Member

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    Is Glasgow Central station only served by ScotRail trains? TransPennine Express, Avanti West Coast, London North Eastern Railway, Arriva CrossCountry trains do not travel to Glasgow by any chance? Doesn't ScotRail use any DMUs on the Glasgow lines?

    I don't expect every single train that travels through Glasgow to be faithfully reproduced, but it would be nice if some AI trains make the background and crowds at least at Glasgow Central station and the nearby tracks.

    Or maybe just faithfully recreate lines where there is less variety of rolling stock and carriers?

    Well, it does limit expectations drastically :(

    I just don't understand why the description on the product page promises something not true and completely unreal: "Experience the hustle and bustle of a modern suburban network". Maybe the person writing these ads should also do a reality check? Why can't the truth be written: "Experience driving a commuter train on a semi-empty suburban rail network with suburban traffic only."
     
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  43. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Completely agree with you. I also don't like that people took other that Cathcart thread to advertise an unfinished product of an DTG competitor. It would be the same if you go into the showroom of a car dealer for making down his cars and advertising for a car of an competitor, that is still in development. The car dealer would not accept that for long and would take actions against that behavior.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
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  44. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    DTG aren't going to model brand new AI trains solely for one route.

    The best bet is that if these trains come in the future, with their own route, they'll be added to GCC as AI portal traffic. The most likely thing which will happen is for another DLC to be made for the current TT, such as the Class 320.
     
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  45. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Glasgow Central is merely a very small part of the route, it happens to be the terminus station, which happens to be a large city terminus. The Cathcart Circle line from what I can see so far has a pretty well represented timetable and therefore the claims are not unrealistic.

    What would the point be in going to all the work to make a Pendolino, for example to see it fleetingly run on a couple of miles of track? It is a completely bonkers idea and totally unrealistic. I think it is scraping the barrel of things to complain about, in my opinion.

    As said above, if the Pendolino appears in a route at some point then it could be layered in as AI traffic.
     
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  46. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    For me, charging full price for a very small route with one Train and one livery puts me off. I only bought the Diesels Legend pack as there are mods to 'fix' it.

    If they add Trains later on then it might be worth it in a sale.
     
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  47. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I think the value of a DLC varies for the price depending on multiple factors, for Cathcart in particular I think they tick the boxes needed for a small route, it’s well detailed, looks good, is self contained meaning that the short length doesn’t actually become a factor since you can run your service for as long as you want, the train looks and sounds great, there is a high frequency service pattern.

    Now I’d definitely of liked to see another piece of rolling stock, both to add in some variety and more AI traffic around Glasgow Central, but apart from that I think this route offers good value for the price.

    For me it’s the longer routes recently that have been subpar in value, reused stock, very little effort put into sounds and interactivity, poor service options and pretty poor scenery, the smaller routes seem to offer a fuller experience with better quality.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
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  48. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    ...what I find very interesting (or strange) about the new route are the Mastery rewards. It looks like aliens have landed or crashed in Scotland. So we'll get an alien head shape for the Livery Designer and a possible UFO crash site! ;)

    What a coincidence because at the end of this month, the Pentagon will release an investigation report for the U.S. Congress about UFOs. It looks like there's more to it than just a simple explanation about weather balloons.
    This Mastery reward might also have been suitable for the upcoming Cane Creek route, because it's closer to Area 51. :D

    Train Sim World 2_20210608160122.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  49. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Scotland 51
     
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  50. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Put it in the Suggestions forum. :love:
     
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