Train Sim World 2 - First Look Metro Norths Harlem Line

Not opposed to DLC sales. Questioning the implication that the full price of this particular DLC is something of a "rip-off." I don't see that DTG is offering so much less that this route is definitively "too-short" and, therefore, unfairly priced. However, perhaps I read your statement too broadly and it was really just your personal opinion. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

 

I have no doubt dtg will create the section to north white plains impressive and good.

I dont mind the choice of the harlem line, but i just dont like play a 40% route with almost no future dlc potential.

The ONLY bebefit for me in this dlc is the highly detailed m7a and m3a.

For me it seems dtg is stuck in a triangle, where high quality locos, a high quality route and a long enough routes is not matching the 30euros. On top their blindness to go and develop into extensions.

So my only rational explanation is, that dtg wants to create the hudson line without a new loco and use the m7a and sd40. This way they can make the full route, and the p32ac planned as loco dlc.

Who knows, but factories would never have improved if they listend to the employee said "this way it was done last 30 years, so no need for thinking about it"

Believe me or not, the future of tsw will depend on its route improvents about: extensions, "merging" resulting in longer routes and a greater experience, possibilities etc. Right now its stuck in too many dlcs have nonsense ending points. Dtg cares too much about the miles / 1hour driving thing instead of creating a solid business case.

My conclusion of a customer, paid a lot in digital content (since summer21 in tsw2) is, i like spending money on good products. As long the greater vision is visible, the ratio of what i pay to what i get is good, nothing stands in its way.

For tsw 2 however im hard in judging, and i think the giant route improvments doesnt come up to the improvments of the trains and the rest of the sim.

Right now im not sure to continue with tsw2 in 2023. Its the pure fact dtg ignores nessecary improvements like extensions and continues treating tsw 2 as "ts unreal 4 edition"

 

Is there any freight services in real life?

 

From what i seen in this thread nope

 

Possibly some minor nocturnal CSX movements up to Mount Vernon.
But this is not a freight line, unlike the Hudson and New Haven lines.

 

I’d like to be excited for this. But this more than likely will be someone I will hold back on until a sale actually reflects what I personally feel it’s worth. Plus I’m not as vested into this sim for many reasons.

As I’ve said when this was first announced. 24 miles isn’t something I’d find myself spending full price for.

And respectfully, What’s also discouraging, is how people are actually agreeing with the length, due to their personal limited attention spans. This isn’t a sim that you are required to spend more than a certain amount of time with. There’s save functions for a reason. Agreeing to limitations because some can’t seem to play something for more than a few blinks of an eye does little to help those who who have far better hang time and would like to see and experience full runs.

Also it’s a nonsense excuse that scenery and the amount of stations being modeled always seem to come up when it comes to American based commuter content.

As much of a fan of all commuter based stuff, NYC especially. I felt the Brighton mainline was the best commuter based route TSW has seen by far. And that’s 50 miles, with a plethora of action. As far as I’m concerned, I see very little justification as to why this route couldn’t have been given a little more.

Most of the stations aren’t all that unique from one another. And as long as there’s enough people continuing to accept fractions of what other territories get easily, we will continue to be short-handed on the American commuter side of things.

 

From what I’ve been able to gather freight operations ended on this line in 2003. Aside from the occasional MOW train, there wouldn’t be any. The line does however pass over the freight only Oak Point Link. It would be nice if SPG added an AI only layer here to add some diversity but I’m not getting my hopes up.

 

HA!

Call me when TSW has a working save function.

 

And i am rather nonplussed by the pure fact that some people fail to understand that DTG is a business, which means that they are not interested in losing money. Route extensions lose money, end of. They cost more to make than they recoup in sales.

The weak leg in the tripod is the price point: how many users are willing to pay, say, fifty euros for a route? (No, it's not play time; TS, contrary to your last quip, has much longer routes)

 

Okay, this is a little hyperbolic with the eyes blinking and attention spans. I like long routes. I play SPG and enjoy it. But, due to time limitations from other things going on in life, I don't always have that kind of time. As an aside, one reason I don't play SPG that much anymore is because once you're done with the shunting, everything else is a 2-hour time commitment. Perhaps saving would be more of an option if it worked better, but even then I think I would prefer to finish a service all at once. Then again, even if this new route were longer, I could always just play the shorter services. So, there are different ways of looking at this.

However, I do disagree with the comparison to LBN, because LBN doesn't work as expected. Add-ons aren't supported for older consoles. Memory problems and crashes, while now somewhat resolved, have been well-documented. And what of the scenery? There do not seem to be many tall buildings, mostly around East Croydon and Victoria, and those areas aren't spectacular but any means. Just take an external camera and the detail drops off just outside the right of way. Or, look at Reigate. Also, the rush hour passenger volume is still on the roadmap.

If you look at the Harlem Line, it seems as if the building density is much greater. So, as I have previously stated, my hope is that the relative shortness of this DLC, will be made up for by improvements to playability and scenery, etc., better than what we have gotten before. Of course, if there are so many problems or issues upon release, then I would have to rethink this. But, just to state LBN is longer, so this route should be too, I don't think it's as clear and simple as all that. Would I like a route that goes all the way to Southeast? Sure. But I don't think, at this time, that we can get that, plus it works correctly. Not an indictment of DTG, more like just the state of the game at the moment. So, then, the only question becomes, is the route too short to stand alone in any case, so that anyone who buys it is not getting their money's worth, full stop? I would have to say no.

 

Have to agree with you there. The reasons given for the short length are all very nonsense.

The short "attention span" of certain players is not a reason to make a route shorter. I mean many route exsist where you can play 2 hours on one service. And for those players who prefer shorter playing sessions, well shorter services are always there. I have no problem with people prefering shorter services, but don't turn that into a reason to make short routes.

They also say the route is too scenery heavy, but I just can't see that being the case? I mean yes, the Manhattan part is, maybe. But that's barely a few miles. For the rest of the route it's mostly driving between treelines. It doesn't seem any more scenery heavy than other TSW routes are.

Of course, I'm still interested in the route, but I would love it if it was longer. But if it's this short, then I really hope the length at least will be worth it and it will actually be a good route.

By the way, a lot of people seem to bring up the price. Personally I would be happy to pay more for a route, if it means I actually get a full route.

 

It's fine. But think of it this way. If you had the chance to get this dlc at a lower price or any game at a lower price irrespective of quality and length, wouldn't you if you had the chance? I recently brought New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe for $20. The Nintendo E-Shop was selling the game for $59.99 and considering that the game is just a port of the wii u version that came out 7 years ago I believe, there was no way I was gonna pay full price for a old game.

Basically if anyone has a chance to buy something at a lower price, that's good because the person would save money. Do I think that LGV is worth $30 when services can be completed in 30 Min with one train and 3 stations? Absolutely not. But if it was on sale for $10-$15, then maybe I'd consider it. It's all about how much value a player may get out of something and if it's worth paying full price or waiting for sales or getting it at a discount. That is subjective of course but I would bet good money that if anyone had the opportunity to buy a tsw2 dlc at a lower price if it is content that interests them, then they would.

That's how you save money

 

You probably get a call in 5 years then

 

Well then to avoid people asking for route extensions or waiting for sales. It would good to try to make the whole line and no they don't have to me hundreds of miles long. People run back to the business and time defense again and again which I get but how long is that excuse gonna be used for. This game has been out for 5 years. There needs to be improvements when it comes to making full line routes and not routes in which the service terminates where it doesn't in real life. These full services don't even take 2+ hours and if a player can't play a service for a long time, they can play shorter services.

 

The dense scenery on this line is really only in Manhattan which is only a few miles of track really. Yeh the bronx as well but once you get past Fordham the scenery becomes alot less dense since there aren't that many tall buildings in the bronx along with the fact that you would get into the suburbs. It's kinda like your average tsw2 route with a mix or urban and suburban really

 

The route takes around an hour to drive and has around 15 stops along the way as far as I can tell. The chosen end point may be a shorter distance than some other routes but it still fits the profile of standard services for DTG routes. The next logical end point for services is too far for DTG to make if you take everything into consideration and what little it would add for most players. There are dense urban scenery areas and and a not insubstantial underground section too as it stands. It’s a combination of factors that make this route end where it does (not least where the railroad have their termini in real life) and although the distance may seem short, the services are still as long as those on London Commuter. I feel some people are over-egging how much they want to feel hard done by with complaints of the extents of this route. It really isn’t as bad as they are making out. Not in a TSW sense anyway. It’s a metro route. Complaints of all TSW routes being too short in general (usually compared to TS) don’t really fit as a criticism of this route in particular.

 

Dtg is a business yes, so as a customer i have to pay 100% for a 40% route?.

If its for the rolling stock, ok
If its because the section to southeast would be another 30 euros, well dtg you get my money.
If its because the extension to wassaik also is 30 euros on top, well you get my money.

My point is, in my opinion what we get now is neither fish nor meat. With dtgs business politics its just wasted potential, because they move on to the next dlc after its released and thats it.

 

The duration of a service doesn't matter. A service to southeast would take an additional 15-20 min. And mind you the services to southeast only stop at 3 stations before running local north of White Plains. Just because it's an hour doesn't mean the length should've been this short anyways. Saying it wouldn't add much is frankly nonsense? Remember the Hamburg-Lubeck dostos backlash. If the route was the full electrified section was made, I bet you wouldn't have said that. Maybe the BML should've gone from Victoria to Gatwick then since services to Brighton "wouldn't add much" with that logic. Time shouldn't factor into a length of a route and if a player doesn't have the time to do a full run, they could simply play the shorter services.

 

It would be so crazy if they just put the same PIS System from the current LIRR Route in-game to this route, and won't even make sense at all, because if you look at my post on this thread the Harlem Line, all already have the Update color blue and white font PIS and Color-coded like in them, I would be so upset if they just use the same PIS system from the LIRR, and that is a big no-no on the team who did the research. They are supposed to know that the PIS System has already changed and advanced and is not the same as the LIRR Route. TrainSim-Matt DTG Natster Please do not make this mistake DTG. Look into research again and fix the PIS system and the Metlife Skyscape scenery.

 

UPDATED PIS SYSTEM AT WHITE PLAIN

UPDATED PIS AT GRAND CENTRAL TERMINAL

 

I don't think they would use the pis from LIRR. There is alot of pictures of how the pis looked and they did work with a Metro-North employee so he/she could've gotten pictures or video of the pis in action. The inaccurate pis on lirr was put in because of time constraints. They had the artwork but not the time to implement it on lirr.

Now if they do put the inaccurate lirr pis on this route (which I don't think will happen), there really is no excuse for that to be honest

 

I am just worried and fear that they might get it wrong, also in terms of the MetLife building i don't know if they correct it or not, i really do hope they do fix it before this week which is the live stream. Imagine, they invite the Metro North Employee that help with this line on stream, that would be crazy.

 

Hopefully, they would not price it at a full route price which I believe is $34.99 USD, and hopefully, they would price it at a lower price since they did not extend this line as a full route to Southeast.

 

No this route will cost $29.99. They won't lower the base price.

 

The duration of the services does matter a lot and it is a major factor when planning a route. When planning which routes to do and they can only make one route longer due to development time, they won’t make the route with the faster services and fewer stops shorter and make the route with the longer services and more stops longer. That creates an imbalance in both miles and minutes of driving. Time spent is really the best measure of any pastime, the clue is in the word.

If the duration of a service doesn’t matter, then your whole historic criticism of LGV Med falls flat. You have consistently said that even though it’s a long route, the services are too short. It matters to you as much as it matters to any player. There are lots of routes in TSW where the services are only 20 to 30 minutes so an hour is pretty good going and enough to satisfy the majority of people.

EDIT - You’ve edited your reply while I was typing - If London Commuter only went to Gatwick, the services would be shorter in duration as well as length and not as long as the services in the Harlem Line route. Going all the way they are about an hour, the same as the Harlem Line. My argument is about the duration not the length. The duration in Harlem is adequate. The time driving is as big a consideration as the length. Having both is nice but it won’t always happen. Sherman Hill is good for both if you want a recommendation.

 

Oh an imbalance you say. Services from Grand Central to southeast take about an hour and 15 to 20 min excluding potential delays on the line. They stop at 15 stations making the express services have 16 stations if you include grand central hence why they they take an hour and 15 minutes. I don't see an imbalance to that since the local services stop at 15 stations as well

You said that the services are an hour so it wouldn't really matter and not add value. Frankly it does matter and that's what I meant when the duration of it being an hour doesn't matter because the additional service duration isn't that much longer. The express services only stop at Harlem 125th and run local once they reach white plains. It only really takes 35-40 minutes one express train to reach White Plains from Grand Central.

A southern service from Victoria to Brighton on London Commuter takes 1 hour and 9 Minutes to complete. I'm sure a player wouldn't mind playing for a additional 5 to 10 minutes. SEHS services takes 1 hour and 5 minutes to complete. It wouldn't have been that much longer mate

 

Had that always been the case at this price? I still think it's crazy that we still have to pay the base regular price when we are only getting half of the route.
In order for this price to be worth it, they really have to do an amazing job, on this route, with lots of AI service the rush hour feeling of the train going in both directions, the scenery has to be amazing, and breathtaking, not only with what they have shown so far from the photo, the route has to be spot on point with the ATC working, just the same as the real-life route, the skyscraper building has to be lots of them, especially in the city, the suburban feeling has to also be there,
The train sound, noise, engine, AC, track noise such as the rattling, screeching the clickety-clack, track rumbling sound when a train going on a straight path, train track noise, when going over the bridge, junction, switching tracks, going through the curve at high speed, with no audio delay or lag and have to be realistic as on the real Harlem Line. Overall the Route has to produce the feeling of being on the Metro-North Throughout the entire journey and the feeling of being at Grand Central Terminal, where Ceiling Fans are blowing, and you could hear the engine in idle state, with realistic sound from the engine, waiting to get the clear to proceed. Also, the tunnel has to be the same as the real route, cause that is where all Metro-North Train Exit Comes in from Harlem 125th street and all the stations have to be realistic as the real station. This is what would be worth my money.

 

If only Matt can answer these question, but it seems that he doesn't want to answer our question.

 

You think developer time is getting cheaper? The more Stuff that goes into a route, the more developer man-hours are needed to make that Stuff. Ineluctable fact.

PS: Business is not an "excuse." It is the reason TSW exists at all.

 

Man, you don't expect much for thirty bucks...
Has it ever occurred to you that it takes people and time to implement all that, and those people have to be paid?

 

Another picture of Prove for the Update PIS that have to be in this route

 

Did you miss the part where I said "Which I get"? But again though this game has been out for a while. Why do you think some people ask for full line routes, mergers or extensions in the first place? A full line route doesn't have to be long but you can only move forward and not sit still with the same reasons forever.

Reason and excuse are the same thing by the way.

 

It’s not that it wouldn’t add value to the player, it’s that the line would need to be more than double the length to do it, and I’m saying it already has good value now, not that it wouldn’t have more if it were longer. The route as it stands has value because the stopping services take an hour already. Then there are the express services for the players who don’t like to play for that long. If it was longer, those services would be longer of course and the ones that stop at NWP would be no different. But the main point is that DTG aren’t going to more than double the length of the route for those services because they probably can’t justify the cost for what it adds, when there are already adequate length services included. I’d like all routes to be as fantastic as they could be, with lots of destinations and longer services and a multitude of rolling stock but I also understand why I can’t always have that. There could always be more but sometimes you just have to accept what you are given, understand why, and not be so Oliver Twist about everything. You’ll never enjoy what you have if you are always upset about what you can’t get.

 

Not if they don't put all the hard work, and soul into this route, metaphorically speaking, and really give the community what they want in this route. I know it's business and that's what sucks at the end. Some business doesn't even care about how much the employee should get paid and doesn't care about the well-being of their employee, which suck that they only get paid that little, which in term it's hurting those that want better routes and loco. I don't know even how much these employee or team is getting paid.

 

You never took philosophy, did you?

 

Clear as mud. Out of focus and hidden behind other objects. About as useful as a jelly leg.

 

Spoken like someone who's never had to manage a business operation. "I know it's business and that's what sucks at the end." If DTG wasn't a business, it wouldn't exist and there would be no TSW.

 

Sorry, not my photo it's someone else, but you still could somewhat see the Update PIS at the grand central terminal.

 

And I take it that you never went to English class then?

 

Not only did I, I paid attention.

 

Guys let's just stop arguing and just get back on topic, fighting is not going to change anything, unfortunately.

 

I get costs and time and all of that. Also asking for an extension would be pointless and just wasting time. But DTG needs to understand that there are some players are annoyed and frankly tired of getting routes that don't feel complete. It's one of the main criticisms of this franchise frankly. This game has been out for a long time now. Heck when first passenger route came out for tsw, there were calls for a extension. Not really surprising to be honest. Aiming for services that are only an hour long when the services can be a bit longer and calling that adequate sounds like just aiming for the bear minimum. I am glad that Metro-North is in the game (although the hudson line would've been a better choice with the lovely scenery) and I get projects have to end somewhere but you can only move forward and not stay still with the same reasons forever. If you can't reach the full potential of something, sometimes is best to reconsider making it

If there is another Metro-North route in the future, hopefully it will be the full electrified portion of the line and not part of the line. A New Haven line dlc only going to Stamford wouldn't make sense for example. It's the new haven line not the Stamford line. The backlash for this line not going to southeast really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I am looking forward to this line. At least I'll be able to save money on it. Who doesn't love saving money I'm hoping this route will be good in terms of what is there.

The reason why trains terminate at north white plains station is to have them head back down south into the city especially for rush hour. So yes the express services in reality are slightly longer than the local services but that's because North White Plains is a turnaround point for some services to head back south. That's why express trains run local once they reach White Plains. North White Plains is not a terminal station for the electric trains. It's just a turnaround point to quickly get trains back southbound. Southeast is th terminal station for electrified trains

 

My question to the thursday stream is, if there will be finally a fix for the lirr traction sounds.

 

Well it looks like they used the LIRR information system

 

And that's why i was worried about it. I really do hope they could fix this before the release date.

 

As you can hear from the video the horn sound is different from a far distance and near distance sound. Does the M3A and M7A Have loud and low horns cause in the video I have two horn sounds.

 

You have got to be kidding me? There is a butload of reference that dtg could've gotten for the pis on this line from pictures to video. They also working with an employee

It could be a placeholder though

 

Hopefully that is the case, if not they could at least put it in some of the station, such as North white plain, White Plain, and especially the Terminal Station GRAND CENTRAL TERMINAL

 

Didn't Metro North had those types similar to the LIRR before? I actually do hope they put the updated one. This copy and paste is getting kinda annoying now. They this to boston sprinter too.

 

The Real Life Metro North and LIRR PIS did have some similarities bur not anymore. They are different. I think they were updated like 3-4 years ago to include the color of the line I believe. But yeh the LIRR and Metro North PIS are not the same in reality