Train Sim World 2 - Harlem Line!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG JD, Mar 17, 2022.

  1. ixofxiii

    ixofxiii Active Member

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    Licencing most likely. Yes, buildings have to be licenced too. Perfect example: the Chrysler Building. It was included in Spider-Man for PS4 but not in Miles Morales. They couldn't renew the licence for it.
     
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  2. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much the final straw for me as far as buying this route at full price. Even a generic ball park would have been acceptable. You just can't show the Bronx and a dedicated station without reference to the stadium. Ridiculous!
     
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  3. bdlaplaca

    bdlaplaca Member

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    To be fair to the dev team, the new stadium is not up against the station. In the game, you can see the giant baseball bat which used to stand right in front of the entrance to the old Yankee Stadium. The new stadium was moved over a block away, farther from the station. In real life you can see portions of the stadium along the walkway/bridge but you cant normally see it at the platform level.
     
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  4. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Just been on Google Street View and from the locations I checked (which is higher than track level) you can't see Yankee Stadium. I don't feel the need to have the stadium in the game and DTG made the right decision. The whole track which is closest to the stadium is in a open cutting, it's below street level, no need whatsoever to include the stadium.
     
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  5. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    While I take your point, one of the big ideas behind Train Sim World is the ability to get out and explore on foot or from the air, to see things that aren't visible from the cab. While, obviously, this has to be constrained to a reasonable distance, nonetheless TSW did things like the apron and terminal at Gatwick, which can only be seen using a flying camera.
     
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  6. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Of course you wouldn't see much from the platform. But, unlike some, I'm a player who frequently uses the free roam cameras to look around and I expect to see major landmarks. Knowing they're not modeled spoils the experience for me.
    If there were loads of passengers alighting or boarding at 153rd, where would they be going. TSW is a simulation, I understand that, but it's not make believe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
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  7. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    It being there just helps create the world in Train Sim World. Yes, it has absolutely no bearing on gameplay, but a definite nice to have.
     
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  8. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    And if there is some weird IP issue which prevents the image of New Yankee Stadium, then at least a generic ballpark could have been substituted.
     
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  9. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    I guess you're right. DTG did include Oracle Park (San Francisco Giants) though that is only one block away from SF Station (less than 500 meters). Yankee Stadium is just under 1000 meters from Melrose & more than 5 blocks away. Go on Street View and tell me if you can see the stadium from next to Melrose Station, spoiler.. you can't.
     
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  10. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    Yeah hopefully they will add it later this year.
     
  11. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh but the main entrance/exit of Yankees E-153 leads directly to Yankee statdium which is across the street of East 161 Street. The fact they didn't model the stadium which is literally close to the station is baffling. Sure you wouldn't be able to see it on the platform but if you were to go upstairs to the walkways to get to the other platforms, it is literally visible from the station. They should've at least put a generic stadium building if licensing was an issue. Makes no sense to have made the station but to not include the actual stadium even if it isn't visible when your on the platform.

    Spolier, if your at a high point above Melrose (the roof of the apartment building above Melrose) Yankee Stadium is visible from there in real life
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
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  12. MAX1319

    MAX1319 Active Member

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    Why are the northbound trains seem just to use Track #1 at north white plains station. I’ve notice to trains jammed up on track 3 and the trailing only fits about 4 cars. Those this happens in reality. I’ve notice this around 6:50pm time frame and you will see it several times during this time
     
  13. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Most things would be visible if you go high enough, I think the fact it's not in the immediate area of the station, you can't see it from the platform or cab means the decision to not add it was the right decision.

    On Bakerloo line there are less buildings to prevent us from seeing Wembley Stadium, even though it's further away they added it because as a passenger/driver you can see it as you drive by.

    I think it's a moot point really, no matter how much some people complain, DTG won't be adding it so just enjoy the route without it. :)
     
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Considering Yankee stadium is right next to Yankees East 153rd Street means that not adding it was the wrong decision! Wembley stadium is not visible when in Wembley Central in game and yet DTG added the stadium albeit in a update as the station wasn't modelled. So saying that you wouldn't be able to see the stadium since your on platform level is not an excuse to not model it.

    Perhaps DTG can put it in a update like how Wembley Stadium was put on BKL in an update as it wasn't visible.
     
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  15. NateDogg7a

    NateDogg7a Active Member

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    The first time I was at Yankees-153rd, I looked around for the stadium and was surprised it wasn't there. I mean, you can't see it from the cab, sure. But, "Yankees" is in the station name. There is a Subway Series scenario. There are special trains that run from the Harlem Line on game days (haven't checked to see if they are included yet). So, it's a little disappointing that some representation at least is not present.
    As far as rights or permissions go, correct me if I'm wrong but can't you see any building in the world on Flight Simulator? Presumably, MSFT doesn't have the "rights" to all that. So, is that really a valid reason not to include something? I mean, maybe not logos, but general structures.
    Overall I like the route and consider in the top tier of routes as far as quality. But, I would like to see Yankees, MetLife, and a few other things added, although I consider it unlikely. Would be nice though.
     
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  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yankee Stadium is in Microsoft Flight Simulator. Also Citi Field which is where the New York Mets play is in MSFS as well. Albeit they aren't the best representation but they are there. There are buildings in MSFS but you wouldn't see them when flying at 30,000 Feet obviously
     
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  17. ixofxiii

    ixofxiii Active Member

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    I agree!!
     
  18. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Are you getting The Harlem & Hudson line mixed up..? Yankees E 153rd St in on the Hudson, not Harlem. Just after crossing the river there is a branch where the Hudson goes left, we on the Harlem continue up to Melrose.

    If we had the Hudson line and Yankee Stadium wasn't in game, I'd agree.
     
  19. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    That small section of the Hudson line is also included in the route up to the Yankees station.
     
  20. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Oh I see, thanks for the clarification.

    **Can someone who owns the route post a screenshot of the view from Yankees station, I'd love to see what it actually looks like in relation to IRL.**
     
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  21. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    See it and weep
     

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  22. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    That's embarrassing.
     
  23. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    Despite all the talk I’ve been talking. I caved in this weekend and I do enjoy the route. But the length just kills it for me. The only thing LIRR has over this route is the branches giving more service variety.

    As was touched on plenty already for the shortness, they’ve surely could have done a little better with scenery. Notably the Yankees Stadium, MetLife, more accurate representation of the Harlem Station Trestle. And GCT looks too bare on the platforms.

    When excuses are made for short length. The least that should be done is to make up for it in scenery quality. Station signage should be better represented. Missing logos shouldn’t have been overlooked or omitted.

    But I’m honestly disappointed in myself for supporting this in spite of what I’ve been saying, but this has been the first I’ve purchased anything NY related after launch day. Because while I wanted to vote with my wallet, the other side to this, not showing support for this will only give indication that this isn’t what we want.

    DTG really ought to put a little more care and attention, as well as some level of respect for its US consumers and the content which it is based, commuter/passenger stuff especially. As it gives me a strong personal impression we’re just a cash grab of sorts. I’m sure I’m not alone in this sentiment.

    If the trend is to do shorter commuter routes in order to cut down dev time for each specific content, at least with some indication that we will likely see an extension of sorts, cool. But this is giving Red-headed stepchildren vibes, if I’m being honest. There isn’t but so many times running up and down a mere 20+ mile route can be seen as entertaining. That’s my biggest gripe.

    Otherwise, it’s not a horrible route.
     
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  24. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    This is not true. If you don't buy something, that doesn't mean you don't support it. I supported the idea of rush hour but I didn't buy the routes because they are filled with bugs (game crashes) and a branch line was cut. If you don't buy something, it could be that the product is filled with bugs, defective or doesn't meet a certain standard. Customers should have a certain standard before buying a product. Not buying a product doesn't mean players don't want it necessarily, but it can be due to bugs, length audio issues etc. There is nothing wrong with not buying a product. In fact if alot of people didn't buy a product, it can force a company to make changes to improve the product which is a benefit to consumers.

    We've seen dtg all to often take shortcuts to get dlc's released quickly to earn a quick buck. The whole "detail" reasoning for the short length simply isn't reflected in this route making that reasoning simply not a excuse for the short length especially since landmarks are missing on the route such as Yankee Stadium, Metlife Building and the Empire State Building along with many inaccuracies with the scenery itself
     
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  25. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong. You are also correct. What I'm saying is, it's kind of a double-edged sword here. The fact that we came on here, voicing our opinions and concerns, there was obvious interest. Not just us being on this forum like those on a GTA post on Facebook, and saying things like "I can't believe people still play this game.. I've stopped playing this 6 years ago". We are not fans of being short-handed when we see other territories get something substantial and more complete in comparison to what we receive these days.

    As a fan of NY-based commuter stuff (or from almost anywhere for that matter), we want to see more of this content done. As it seems when it comes to American stuff, most of the focus is on freight, which is especially true for TS20xx. And I heavily advocate for a little more balance with that in it, because there just isn't enough focus on that type of operation. Granted, freight is huge here. But there's still needs to be a balance for those of us who do favor passenger content. As much as I struggle to like TSW, I really don't wanna see that trend continue in this sim either.

    They (DTG), as well as those who are a part of this community, argue their case with the claim freight content sells more than passenger-based stuff. And while it's perfectly within anyone's right to vote with their wallet, we run the risk of continuing to prove the argument being made. But overall the corner-cutting seriously is evident here, and a number of us just aren't fans of it. Time will tell.

    It is one thing for them to read the feedback, another for them to take it in and do something about it.
     
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  26. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    I completely understand why Yankee stadium is not in the game. The licensing for the likeness is very hard to get. You have to go through both Major League Baseball and the New York Yankees. And both would have to say yes.

    They are both very strict in fact MLB has given Sony Studios exclusive rights for years for all MLB property. That is why there has not been a baseball game from EA since 2009, and 2K since 2013.

    The only MLB option was The Show, which was a PS exclusive until last years version. After MLB threatened to pull the exclusive rights if they didn't create it for all 3 big name consoles and PC.

    We got Xbox last year, Switch this year and PC is next year. I'm sure EA would of added Yankee Stadium for FIFA by now if they could since NYFC plays there.
     
  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Even then they could've made a generic stadium at the very least
     
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  28. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    ^^
    This.
     
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  29. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The whole "freight sells better than American passenger" is kinda moot really since most North American routes available in tsw2 have been freight. There have only been two new American passenger routes for tsw2 and the other two are riddled with bugs (LIRR and Peninsula Corridor). I do agree there does need to be a bit of a balance between American freight and passenger because there are a ton of American passenger routes that can be made
     
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  30. ixofxiii

    ixofxiii Active Member

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    No. Replace the ICONIC, Home of Champions (the NYCFC also play there) Yankee Stadium with a generic ballpark?
    Everyone in my home borough just heard a record scratch as that was posted. Lol
    Atleast they have the Babe Ruth Louisville Slugger smokestack in game.
     
  31. ixofxiii

    ixofxiii Active Member

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    Iirc, isn't MSFS based off of Google Maps? I'm pretty sure that if that's the case, it's though that.
     
  32. robert_LH

    robert_LH Member

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    I would have loved for them to bring in the New Haven Line, even just as AI ttraffic to make the route up to Woodlawn more realistically busy. Especially on the express tracks in the middle, they are presumably running on.
     
  33. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    The correct route for the M8 is NEC Newark, NJ to New Haven, CT 84 miles Metro-North wanted them to run into Penn Station as part of Penn Station access third rail to Bowery Bay Substation then Overhead wires to New Haven from Bowery Bay. Think of it as the American version of BML 387/2 where the M8 UK version 387/2 accelerates very quick on wires but slower acceleration on 3rd rail
     
  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It's based of bing maps
     
  35. box215

    box215 Active Member

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    The M8 runs on the New Haven Line (main line) between GCT and New Haven, CT. M8s to do not and have never operated in NJ, not sure where you got that info. The New Haven Line a joint venture between the MTA and CDOT (Connecticut Dept of Transportation)
    All branch lines are also located in CT
    The power change over from 3rd rail to overhead catenary happens between Mt Vernon East and Pelham in New York.
     
  36. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking of Penn Station access where the New Haven line M8s connects to NJ Transit ALP-45DP ALP-46A Multilevel IIs EMU some are Multilevel Is with Multilevel II powercars. That should clear it up for you and also M8 has a switchable 3rd rail shoe LIRR Top Contact to Metro-North Bottom Contact third rail 750v DC.
     
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  37. ixofxiii

    ixofxiii Active Member

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    From what I understood, it's not a switchable shoe but a flip up shoe like on the Amtrak Gennys. When in the Bronx, Queens and Manhattan, the M8s will run under the wire with Amtrak. They won't use LIRRs third rail.
     
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  38. pveezy

    pveezy Well-Known Member

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    For comparison here is the screenshot of the station with the closest approximation I could make on google maps. The stadium is blocks away from the station and wouldn’t be visible so there’s not much reason for it to be included IMO. Can you even get this perspective in gameplay? I’ve never tried to zoom that high into the air before.

    I am all for criticisms of inaccuracies in track side scenery but I can't really see the criticism for stuff that can't be seen from the track or stations and would require a big zoom out into the air.
     

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  39. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    And then they have other emergencies to deal with.
    You don't buy a train simulation to see a stadium 100 leagues away, which is not visible from the track.
    I would prefer better sounds, less bugs.
     
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  40. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It's not "blocks" away. Literally there is an entrance/exit at the station in reality that takes you directly to the stadium. The shard isn't visible when on the platforms at st pancreas and yet it is modelled. Wembley Stadium isn't visible when at Wembley Central yet they modeled so the argument that "it shouldn't be modeled since it isn't visible on platform level is not an excuse and is a moot statement to not model something.
     
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  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And yet they modelled Wembley stadium which isn't visible at Wembley Central. They also modelled the shard on sehs which isn't visible when at St Pancreas
     
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  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    However, the absence of the very visible and very recognizable Manhattan skyline is to my mind a huge fail. And, no, there was no IP reason to exclude the Empire State Building, and none that I can find to exclude the Pan Am/MetLife building if the logo were left off
     
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  43. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    But Wembley and the Shard are visible from the train while driving. Not so with Yankee; and actually to get a glimpse of Yankee Stadium on foot is quite a hike from its nominal train station.
     
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  44. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It's not a hike or a long walk. I take it you never used the station before in reality then?

    Also when driving arriving at Wembley you can't see the stadium since the station itself is underneath a building. I have not seen the shard when playing on sehs but only when I go out in free cam but yet it is modelled anyways. Again not an excuse not to model it. Why make a station that has a stadium near it but not model it anyways
     
  45. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I've never been to New Yankee, and when I went to the original stadium I took a cab.
     
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  46. pveezy

    pveezy Well-Known Member

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    Lol, I didn’t think I’d need to get to this point but here we go, it’s roughly 3 city blocks from the station. Maybe 2.5 if you want to argue over how the station is off set from the road.

    Yeah there's a walk way that cuts through the park area but you can't get out there anyway in the game :
     

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  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    You don't need to point anything out to me. I use the station alot when Im going home from Westchester County and there is an entrance/exit that leads directly across the street from Yankee Statdium hence why it technically isn't "blocks away" and just because the station isn't visible from platform level and can't use the walkway in the game is not an excuse not to model the stadium. It's not as if the stadium is miles from the station anyways
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2022
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  48. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    it’s a no win situation. if they include it, people will complain that it shouldn’t be there as you can’t see it from the train.

    Anyone using the “immersion” argument have no case as for proper immersion, they will be in the cab throughout with no external views so the lack of stadium will be irrelevant.
     
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  49. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Who would complain that it shouldn't be there since you can't see it from the train. I didn't see complaints when wembley stadium or the shard on sehs was modelled even though you can't see when in the cab
     
  50. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Erm, Wembley Stadium can be clearly seen from the Bakerloo line.
     
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