Train Sim World 2 - London Commuter South Downs Spectacle

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Oct 1, 2021.

  1. jakeshortj#6259

    jakeshortj#6259 New Member

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    You’ve done a seriously impressive job here, regardless of how the launch goes you’ve been an absolute delight to see on the stream and the work you’ve put in here is astounding.
     
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  2. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Get better soon. I wish you all the best mate.
     
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  3. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    It was really nice to put a face to name! I'm excited that you will be working on more timetables as this routes services look so amazing and detailed.

    And before this route comes out my favourite route for services has been Hamburg.

    It was really awesome to see how much enthusiasm you have for making timetables and I look forward to more passenger routes that you have had your hand in. At least if I hear you've done the timetable..it will move to a day one DLC purchase for me.

    Thank you for all your hard work. It is very much appreciated.
     
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  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I don't see any alternative. IF DTG are going to uphold their stated position, that they will not release DLC which is PC/nextgen only, then, assuming that there will be a loco DLC for Brighton, they necessarily had to leave headroom for it in the 8th gen builds.

    And, again, there is no content in BML which PC/nexgen players get that lastgen players don't get. The "layers" everyone is going on about reflect *other* content which players have paid for separately. BML itself is the route, the 377 and the 387 (I don't have the 375 or 465 on BML, because I have elected not to buy SEHS. Am I complaining that DTG didn't give me those trains?)

    The sad fact is that technology marches on, and while everyone seems to want longer/busier/more detailed routes, necessarily those better future routes will require computing horsepower beyond not only OG PS4s and XB1s, but also my aging PC. And if you think buying a new console is expensive.....
     
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  5. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you solicitor. Do you think DTG should come clean early and be more open say something to the effect of

    "you are not going to like this but we have left enough head room on last gen for the class 700 (a paid dlc) and as a gesture of goodwill seeing we have not been able to give you the layers that you own, the 700 will be at a discounted rate for last gen to reflect the missing layers that next gen had access too, 166 etc"

    Or

    "We dont care so much about last gen now or layers for it, it is what it is, feel lucky that we have even bothered to leave head room for the 700, keep quite or we will pull the plug on last gen support from xmas"

    As a last gen customer I feel the second one might be closer to what they might be muttering to themselves behind closed doors
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
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  6. Coastway trainspotter

    Coastway trainspotter Well-Known Member

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    Possibly , but we could make 1000 assumptions about dtg and not know which ones are right
     
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  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, DTG wouldn't ever say which train will be the loco DLC this early.....
     
  8. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Not workable, or even really fair, given that that DLC purchase entitles the owners to FREE next-gen versions whenever they upgrade their hardware. So why should they pay less for the same train than next-gen or PC owners?
     
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  9. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    That's the opposite of the point;

    Regardless of platform, everyone buys (with BML): The Route: London Victoria - Brighton, The Class 377, and Class 387.

    The layers come in seperately from other DLCs.

    If they reduced the price for the 700 to compensate for content that is missing (that you get if you own other DLCs, so it's free for owners, and non-owners (of those DLCs) don't get them) it'd go contrary to, well, everything about layers.
     
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  10. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed salty. I bet this thread gets locked up before too long. Curious nothing from DTG to address the luming spectacle of the class 700 dlc gap in the table but some how x1 166 will destroy everything.... One argument kicks off here and it will be locked to give them time to keep the layers thing out of sight and off book for a while.
     
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  11. Ryan1997

    Ryan1997 Member

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    I play on xbox one and I was really looking forward to the potential for layers. But am I surprised they cannot be supported...no.

    Do we really think that layers would be held back from last gen just for the sake of it. No. Its just not the case. One day I will upgrade as will most and then I will get to experience the layers. Or I'll play the xcloud version on my laptop or xbox when it releases this year.

    The Pack is the route and the 2 electrostars, for which we are getting a full timetable for. So why should we get a discount. Anyone suggesting that is speaking nonsense.

    It can't change because DTG can't upgrade all of our RAMs so let's move on and talk about all the amazing work that has been done to deliver this amazing route and fantastic timetable!
     
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  12. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    You are most likely right on this point. The 700 dlc will be a global price regardless of platform, think I am thinking of that pig above battersea....
     
  13. Northerner

    Northerner Well-Known Member

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    I agree, in my view, everyone is actually buying BML with all the layers, though currently some won't be able to access all of them due to hardware constraints but they will be able to if they ever upgrade to next gen.
     
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  14. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    £350 to get to next gen on base ps5 that's hell of a upgrade for layers. However, alas as a ps4 user maybe this is the end, the death bell toll in the distance (for the 8GB of ram the ps4 has of course)
     
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  15. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    How exactly does that one work?
    You need to own SEHS, GWE, WSR and ECW to get the layers,
    You aren't buying the layers with BML, you're buying the BML + The 377 + The 387.
     
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  16. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed
     
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  17. Northerner

    Northerner Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, badly worded, what I meant was that they were purchasing the route with the timetable that included all the layers but just wouldn't be able to access them whilst they were on last gen.
    I agree, as an original xbox one user, that it is a huge amount of money if you're just purchasing it next gen for the extra layers but there are many other advantages. I just can't see how they could sell the route for less on last gen whilst still allowing people to keep the route if or when they upgrade to next gen.
     
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  18. taybarker20

    taybarker20 Active Member

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    I know it’s a small thing but is the ticket feature in the BML or was it only for the German rush hour route
     
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  19. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you northerner. What is your opinion of the class 700 dlc? Do you think once announced they should limit it to next gen only? Thus proving last gen has it max potential with current layers
     
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  20. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure why you seem to be on a mission to restrict your own platforms content, in a vein attempt to try and prove that DTG have committed a grand crime by not giving you game breaking layers(spoiler; they haven’t).

    DTG haven’t even said that they’ll be doing a DLC for the route, and if they are planning on, they probably did leave the slot open to the 700, a lot more players would want that as opposed to a 166 which runs between 3 stops.

    For all we know they could release a 700 onto SEHS, and provide a layer for BML, a layer which Gen 8 may not get.

    They might not introduce a loco DLC to the route until after Gen 8 support is dropped.

    In the end it’s all speculation because ultimately there may never be a 700 in TSW 2.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
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  21. Northerner

    Northerner Well-Known Member

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    I guess that would depend on whether or not last gen consoles could handle the extra services and type of train. By that time improvements may have been made in making everything use less ram but, as has been said, some would prefer to have other layers instead of the 700 if it was possible. I think a way of chosing which layers to have on the route at one time could work, and it has been talked about as a potential solution by DTG before. There's a lot of ifs in this as many things may have changed by the time a potential 700 is being considered and DTG are the only people who will know what is really possible.

    If it was decided to be next gen and pc only, then it would probably only make commercial sense once a much greater proportion of console users had moved to next gen, so I can't see that happening in the too near future.
     
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  22. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    The number of services aren’t impacted or impact the number of layers. Matt said it’s the number of unique trains as each unique train on the route has the biggest RAM claim. But then it does seem off that BML maxes out at two unique trains where more exist on other routes.
     
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  23. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed northerner. This was a helpful post. I do like the idea of a separate timetable similar to diesiel legends where pherhaps a reduced electrostars setup with some freight, 166, 700 etc then the other timetable is as it is now with the full 1000 but just 2 loco. Thank you for the response, all helpful and hopefully DTG are taking note that on this forum everyone is talking openly between pc, next gen, and old gen in a civil way. No name calling, this thread must be kept open to let debate continue.

    I think now would be a good point to say well done again to joe regardless of layers outcome for last gen. His work here has been top class, bravo
     
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  24. Ryan1997

    Ryan1997 Member

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    You have to take in to account the sheer amount of services involved, plus the huge station ans scenery assets. Victoria, Clapham, E Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Brighton. All huge stations. Compared to maybe 1 or 2 major stations on some of the German routes
     
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  25. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I might be a minority, but I'm in the camp who'd take the layers over the Class 700. The layers add variety to the route, but rather like the 377s, the 700 would become boring after a while when you see it for the thousandth time. That's why I'm glad there is the 166, and the diversion services.
     
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  26. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately, DTG never once said everyone would get layers on last gen or even next gen. It is a shame that some can’t get the layers, but what are you really expecting DTG to do? They can’t add more RAM to the last gen consoles and there is only so much optimisation you can do. You can’t get blood out of a stone. It is what it is sadly.
     
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  27. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    It seems you are unhappy with the fact that I/We have purchased a next gen console for situations such as this. Further to my point, it seems you are trying to get them to remove the layers for us who have bothered to purchase the next gen console.

    Please have some consideration as we have had to spend money to be rewarded.
     
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  28. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, well I'm no expert, but it's hard to believe that one more little DMU, say the 166, would topple a PS4 to the ground.

    And, as you say, Matjamca, a route with a million services but only 2 trains which I can barely tell apart, is lacking in at least one respect. It's almost as if all the extra layers had to be added to make the route palatable. I'm on PC and have all the required dlc, so I'll have all the trains to play with which makes for lots of gameplay, much like Dresden. I just hope that the route itself turns out to be as good as you and others are expecting it to be.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
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  29. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The last stream showed how many hearts there are.
    Joe is a fresh, but not the only passionate there.
    It is not always possible to please everyone.
    Life. BR o7 :)
     
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  30. Bradley

    Bradley Well-Known Member

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    would if the scenery creator was better than it is
     
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  31. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, good post, :)
     
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  32. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    thank you, good to hear a pc user talking about this. Great to have you on the discussion :)
     
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  33. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Full respect alex, I dont think £350+ for extra layers is a fair ask at this stage of tsw2 dev cycle. However anyone who pays for a next gen console to get these layers is their call, and what a call, your passion for tsw2 is great, all healthy debate :)
     
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  34. Northerner

    Northerner Well-Known Member

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    That would the the best way of the doing it, if possible, in my opinion as I like the idea of having more variety but I also want the route to be as busy as possible at the London end and this would allow me to try both. It would require more work and testing though and, sadly, there's not infinite development time.

    I'm just going to bite the bullet and buy a series x, which I'm sure I won't regret, for the better graphics, higher fps and extra layers. I've been putting off trying to get one for too long.
     
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  35. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Good luck with the hunt for next gen stock and thank you for discussing layers, very helpful :)
     
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  36. Northerner

    Northerner Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I'll definitely need it!
     
  37. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    To go back to the stream yesterday; It doesn't really matter if you had 5 Services with the 377/387 or 1000, it still loads it regardless, because it's there.

    So if you cut the Electrostars to 500 overall, and then added the 166, 66, 43, 375, 465 and/or 09, the issue is almost nowhere closer to "resolved" than it is right now as we speak, sadly.
     
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  38. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I suspect you may well be correct :(
     
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  39. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    But I don't think they're asking for the whole cake. Maybe adding back one or two layers like the 166. Is that such a giant ask?
     
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  40. Ghostface1701

    Ghostface1701 Active Member

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    Yes, from what Matt was saying, it seems like it's not just the number of layers, but busy areas of busy routes where several types of vehicles need to be loaded into memory at the same time. No problem on WSR, but at Munich? Dresden? London Victoria? Last-gen consoles run out of memory.
     
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  41. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    For anyone that’s interested, I’ve posted an in-depth review of my thoughts of the livestream here
     
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  42. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, PS4 has 8 GB of ram, which is the amount recommended by DTG for TSW2.

    Well, I need to rest my case. I feel like I've spent the entire day playing the Devil's Advocate, which is hard to do when, according to the various streams, everyone at DTG is walking on water and BML is the Second Coming, all based on some screenshots and one preview stream. All I usually take from a stream is that it's a talkie and in color, but most people seem to be taking more.
    I truly hope that the route is as good as everyone already says it is. Then I will enjoy it along with everyone else.
    And I sincerely hope that something changes for the better for those disappointed PS4 players.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
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  43. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe dtg could add the 66 at least for last gen. It only runs two services on the route anyway.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
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  44. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    This is a great post and from a PS4 player to you as a PC player you have my utmost respect. There seems to be a bit too much "everything is ok in my world so you're on your own" from some next gen and PC players.

    What I would like to know is if DTG have tested each layer individually to test if they work with the base services? I certainly wouldn't expect the 465 and 375 services out of Victoria to work on last gen but does having just the class 166 enabled really crash the game at Victoria when they don't spawn anywhere near there? Do the two class 66 services crash the game on their own? The biggest frustration to me is the missing class 166 services as I have been looking forward to those ever since they were hinted at.

    The thing is though, we know that the game is badly optimised all round. I have seen PS5 players such as yourself reporting stuttering on certain routes which is ridiculous for the power the PS5 has. All graphically demanding games require optimisation and I think it is probably something DTG scrimp on. They has little incentive in business terms to improve optimisation as it doesn't directly lead to an increase in sales. Most people would buy the game and DLC anyway if they are into trains. It's much easier to just leave the PS4 in it's current state and focus on what they would see as more important things that actually produce revenue. Matt said in a stream a while back that the move to 4.26 has actually worsened the memory issues rather than improve them. How a newer engine can have retrograde effects is something beyond my comprehension how a new engine can have retrograde effects.

    Another great point raised by Skyz2020 and dismissed by some is also really important. By saying that they can't get any of the layers working on old gen means they have effectively ruled out any potential DLC being available on those platforms. I wonder whether the DB BR 420 will be available for last gen on Munich-Augsburg considering that that is the other route which has all layers deactivated.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
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  45. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh if hma got all layers for last gen removed because of game crashes then surely the db br 420 can't be available on hma for last gen since that will cause stutters and game crashes for last gen... right?
     
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  46. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    DTG JD DTG Natster Can you make sure to do a night run on Brighton, when doing the 2nd live stream? I am so curious as to see how it looks like at night? Is it going to be realistic lighting? How different is the night lightning compare to Dresden route?
     
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  47. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Bit its not for just the layers, it's to run the game with high detail settings compared to PC low settings at a pretty stable 60FPS. I haven't noticed a drop in fps lower than 52fps on my Series X. I find the stutter seems to happen when the cab texture issue clicks in so once that fix is out I'm sure that will be mostly gone.

    But it is literally night and day between the 2 consoles to the point you can see scratches in the paint on the station signage on the Series X. And driving on SEHS without the watching the wall or LGV without the bridges building in front of you is a beautiful site.

    But you can't expect them to be able to increase performance or even put that much money into trying for dying technology. When we know in a couple of years a vast majority will have the next gen consoles. So it would make more business sense to spend more focus on those than the outdated.
     
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  48. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    They might be able to handle the one train. The layers they took off are like 5 different trains on Munich. So perhaps one loco may work.

    Also we don't know yet if it will have separate times or just substitute existing services run by the 423. If it is that, which is what I think it will be, then there is no issue because that is not a layer.

    Or even perhaps it will work that way on the older gen, and the newer gen and PC will get more services. There is a reason they decided to make separate versions and that was so that the old consoles wouldn't hold them back with improving the game.

    Read into that what you may but my interpretation is that they want to keep supporting players who are stuck with the old console, but at the same time if there are features they can't handle we are still going to add them into the other builds. And not stop improving the game for those machines that can handle it.
     
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  49. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to flog my same horse again, but can someone from DTG confirm whether or not the save/load bugs have been fixed in time for the release of this route?
     
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  50. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Xbox Series X is also for Forza Horizon 5
    Enjoyable
     
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