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Train Sim World 2 - Mass Mixed Traffic

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Apr 29, 2021.

  1. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    If matt wasn't bothered by the fact the dosto doorway was lower then the platform,then he's clearly not overly concered about accuracy in the routes trains.The funny thing is if the dosto doors where correct they might still have been wrong by being to high.
     
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  2. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    I think this route is more aimed towards players who want to expand their German collection , like me
     
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  3. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    Because it looks scenic , a gentle ride and I’ve really wanted to drive the 143 and the 182 in TSW2 but I didn’t want to have to get 2 routes and a loco , so it is good that I can play the 182 and a loco likewise to the 143 on the same route . Wasn’t really a joke though
     
  4. mrcharliemiggins2.0

    mrcharliemiggins2.0 Well-Known Member

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    Also, sometimes Matt just brushes off problems like that, similar to the GWE Blue pack, where 'He stopped to short', even though the marker was in the wrong place. They Know they made a mistake with the Dostos and they just brush it off like it's nothing, even though it is a big emersion breaker.
     
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  5. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I also have RSN, and the only advantage to buying HHL is to be able to run a 143-style loco in other routes without having to worry about the 120 km/h speed limit and a new cab. Is that worth it for 30€?

    I still have to decide, but in my opinion the fact the sounds are not even fixed let alone improved [EDIT: I still hope sounds are a WiP] from the RSN143 and the RT182 is making me feel more inclined to continue using the locos I already have.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  6. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    At this point cane creek looking like a way better a option,beside i have all but of a couple of the german dlc,so i'll wait.
     
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  7. BjornGroen02NL

    BjornGroen02NL Well-Known Member

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    For people who don't own any German route other than Köln-Aachen, this may be an acceptable route.

    For people who own all of the German content, bought it piece by piece over the years like me, it is very much below average. I won't call it bad because the scenery (including Hamburg Hbf) looks good, but the rolling stock is recycled and much underwhelming. I won't go on much about the Dosto's, because that is the biggest mistake in this DLC. Most of the stations in the North-West of Germany have a height of 760 mm apart from S-Bahn which are higher. Then why should you use Dosto's where you "fall in" when boarding. I don't get it. How can CRR get so many new wagons yet rebuilding existing stock is impossible.

    I will only buy this when it either has a lower price at release or when it gets discounted below 30%. I hope the next German route won't be such a disaster, whatever that route may be.
     
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  8. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    So a German DLC, which is primarily... NOT (?) aimed at Germans (which we can presume to have most of the other DLCs)? That's a stellar way to do business.
     
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  9. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    C'mon now, this thing with the headlight is major league rivet counting.:D
     
  10. Lunar_Twisted

    Lunar_Twisted Active Member

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    Someone in chat during the stream ranted about people complaining about the wrong doors on the Dostos. As much as I enjoy the German routes, I still have little knowledge about the rolling stocks. I didn't know there's two different Dostos, one with low entry and the other with high entry. I guess I didn't pay close attention to details. I only found that out on the forums earlier this month when someone mentioned it.

    I also felt like Matt sent the wrong message to people by explaning to them that he knew the Dostos were in the wrong entry for this route and said that the Dostos with different height entries looked similar.

    Edit: Grammar
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  11. Train Sim 9723

    Train Sim 9723 Active Member

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    I also learned about the dostos issue only through the forums but in images of the 2 the difference is quite clear and I’m pretty sure it even changes window layout near the doors but I could be wrong on that

    It would also have helped to give them a more of uniqueness over how they are used on other routes
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  12. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    It's absolutely understandable people from around the world will not all know about this same as I for example would have no idea if they used the right coaches in the UK. But when UK fans came in and complained about 101 being wrong on GWE, because 117 should've been there (which to me also seems to be only "doors"-difference), I took their critique as valid. Granted I am more interested in German DLCs than UK ones... but if those are wrong and people knowing that point it out, I still use that to judge the value. No matter the region of the customer the SIMULATOR content should SIMULATE correctly.
     
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  13. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    It’s a strange route, it looks very well modelled and the rolling stock and locomotives look fine. It’s a shame they used the wrong coaches, not a shrewd move but I guess something else would of had to give.

    It just seems a little boring but I think that’s a problem the real route faces. I appreciate that they added that branch to the freight yard which is a nice touch.

    I would certainly like to know about the layers and scenario planner consist options. I’d like to repaint the Taurus and use it with the Dostos for example.
     
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  14. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    This will often be the case if one is not familiar with the foreign content and of course is perfectly fine. I mean, look back at SEHS, me from Germany had no clue that there was a fence missing and I could have went on without it. I also would never have noticed wrong catenary on LGV and would not care much about that as well.
    But I can relate to the people that felt unsatisfied to see the above being done wrong, as much as German players are unhappy that an iconic train misses its cab car, and that we get standard dostos recycled from 3 previous routes instead of getting the tiniest amount of variation that is a dosto car with different steps (which on a side note also make sense considering the platform height. Matt falling into the rails on stream was just the icing on the cake of this discussion)
     
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  15. Train Sim 9723

    Train Sim 9723 Active Member

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    Not just foreign content as well i never noticed electrification of GWE until I read it on forums it could have or not have catenary in real life and I would never have noticed

    I’m pretty sure a passenger had a problem getting out the doors just before too
     
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  16. DeStijl

    DeStijl Well-Known Member

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    This route is turning into Oakville mk. 2 it seems...
     
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  17. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Well if that's the case... I only got Oakville, when it reached a 40 % discount. Sounds fair for HBL
     
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  18. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    I can already tell this is going to be the most awkward and embarrassing route release in TSW history...
     
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  19. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    Yes they added the freight branch but frankly why? There's only a to b for freight, again, with the same old freight wagons, again.
     
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  20. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    This DLC is only confirming what I feared from DTG, everywhere they can reuse something, they are, the sounds and modelling on this DLC are shocking, I’ll agree the route looks good, but after the 465 & 101, this just seems like yet another DLC that will get its value from the Scenario planner (maybe that’s a little harsh to the 465, but still), I get a lot of development decisions are based around the current global climate, but DTG have made a 648 before, and it would be new to TSW, so the reference material is surely still there, instead we get an odd looking 112 that sounds like a 143, as for the Dostos, the reason “you don’t get a lot out of it” is borderline offensive, we’re all here to play a simulator are we not? One that’s advertised as faithfully and authentically recreated, but I don’t really need to even go into that, because in the stream you can see both an AI and Matt having trouble going between the train and the platform because the wrong stock is being used, so this is also a gameplay issue.

    It’s a nice looking route, but almost every other decision made about this DLC means I’ll be avoiding it.
     
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  21. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Somebody made an excellent point that the two lower headlights are in the wrong place. This is something any real rail fan would notice (lol) but I’ve only seen one person mention it. They are indeed too far in on the model. The slightly big middle light is mentioned a few times and it does look a bit big. Neither issue is anything to get worked up about though unless you are in the habit of staring at a picture of the real train while you drive. It’s close enough and not an issue as big as the Dostos.
     
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  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was funny when matt fell while trying to enter the train. I was suprised when Matt said that the High Entry Dostos and Low Entry Dostos are pretty much the same when a google search will make that statement false.

    What I don't understand is how could they run out of time. I get dtg are a business but Hamburg-Lubeck has been on the roadmap for months so surely they would've known to add the high entry dostos since low entry dostos are wrong due to the fact, (as demonstrated in the stream) you can fall in between the train and the platform. The high entry dostos is in the TS version of this route but not the TSW version which is supposed to be "The Future Of Train Simulation with Authentically Replicated Routes and Locos" Any new route that is made would in theory have a new train made anyways so it is quite odd.

    I was never gonna buy the route because of the DB BR 112. It's a 143 that can reach a higher speed and the 143 is my least favorite German train in the game. I am not interested into freight either so the recycled 182 won't make a difference for me. This will be the first German route that I won't own for tsw2. I got MSB and RSN for free because I had TSW2020 Collectors Edition. I bought RRO and HRR for tsw2020. I got rapid transit for free when they were giving preserved collection codes for disk players even though I was never gonna buy Rapid Transit nor owned it before and I bought HMA. It is a shame that dtg are ok with just recycling content but I seriously hope they put more effort into locos next time. It makes them seem a bit lazy in my eyes and confirms that they like to cut corners.

    The route itself looks nice. I do like the look of Hamburg HBF and the other stations (apart from the fact that that they are all pretty much lifeless which is normal with tsw2 which is frankly annoying) but other than scenery, it doesn't really seem like an exiting route to drive in my eyes so I am looking forward to see what the next German route will be. The recycled content in this route doesn't make it worth $30 in my opinion
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  23. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I have deja vu. HRR without additional layers was just as poor and gave the same empty impression when released.

    The 112 looks nice on the inside, but sounds very bad, especially as the 101 burst on the scene, and she is absolutely fantastic.

    SKA / A-B-C style route. Spectacular both ends and boredom in between (SKA is boring & superb!). I am afraid IRL is also not interesting there - it's not a problem. Possibly the German government could be interested in it...

    As a mockup, it looks very good. The content, unfortunately, is quite poor. I buy all the German DLCs and I'm always satisfied - I will definitely have a lot of fun here too. Unfortunately, hunger remains. No identity. I will buy it, I will judge it, maybe it will be a pleasant surprise. Okay, maybe you can use 101 there. With a lady like that by your side, it's beautiful everywhere.

    Not good, not bad.
     
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  24. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    To me, the wrong dostos and minor issues with the headlights, etc. aren't a big deal, but I'm not from Germany and I focus more on driving rather than playing with the coaches. I don't say that to undermine those who feel differently, and I do understand where you're coming from, but this is just my POV.

    My main interest and what I find funny, interesting, [unknown adjective] is that DTG have said they want to do better with sounds, and yet the only team that actually seems interested in doing that is Adam's preservation team. I rarely use the 143, so I don't know much about that, but the Taurus is pretty bad (and partly why I haven't bought the original 182). There's some looping artifacts in there, and sounds over-processed to the point it's an 8bit audio track.
    To whoever mixes audio on the main team...stop overprocessing it. You end up stripping it of everything that makes up the sound in real life. All the diesels, significantly lack depth/base. The GWE trains that went through Adam's team, and the third party input for the BR 101 proves it's possible produce high quality audio and that even your in house recordings are well done, but it's poorly reflected in the game. And we shouldn't have to wait for the preservation team to get around to it for it to be fixed, b/c who knows how long that will take *cough* LIRR *cough* MSB
     
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  25. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No sale here. I have every German route except RT (I have zero interest in commuter rail)- but only bought HRR because it adds the 425s to HMA. There's a big clue, DTG: new rolling stock is what sells routes. Otherwise Hamburg-Lubeck is just another point-to-point with PZB hassles, to drive the same old trains on. No, thank you.
     
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  26. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    The odd thing is that Matt said in the stream today that they picked this route because it was different. Now it is true that Hamburg-Lübeck is in a new region of Germany for TSW, but I wouldn’t call it distinctly unique from the other ones. The primary rolling stock is still dostos and a cousin of the 143. I realize that German trains and routes aren’t as diverse as a place like the UK where it sometimes seems like every region has its own unique type of train, but DTG should and can do better than Hamburg Lubeck. Since Rapid Transit, we haven’t had a full cross city S-Bahn line with an underground section. Also, while they’re few and far between in Germany, we still don’t have a German DMU or non-electrified line. And, if DTG are feeling risky, they could always attempt the Frankfurt U-Bahn. I could almost guarantee that would be really popular. Also, what happened to new and exciting rolling stock be included in every new route dlc? I remember when GWE came out and we got three entirely new trains. That would be unheard of now in TSW.
     
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  27. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure someone will make a clip with the audio of Matt's explanation for the Dostos with the doors in the wrong place and it not really being that noticable and splice it with the footage of him falling between the train and the platform *because the doors are in the wrong place*. Because the only way it could have been more poetic was if he had been saying that as he fell down the gap.
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Especially since they've just recycled the same buildings, trees and other scenery assets.

    Whoulda thunk that churches in the North German Plain look just like those of the Ruhr valley and Bavaria? (hint: they don't)
     
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  29. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I would love to see the Frankfurt U-Bahn in tsw2 someday and maybe in the Frankfurt S-Bahn.
     
  30. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    Well, for some reason, it seems like DTG has moved themselves in some kind of dead end by refusing to model 'vintage' trains in Germany. HBK seemed to be an exit by modelling a 218. Would someone in America remark the difference between a Twindexx and a loco in front of some DoStos? Hmm, I have my doubts. (Funny fact, the CalMod Stadler KISS have got a high level and a low level entry...) There aren't any up to date german locos, that aren't somehow a replica of already in-game rolling stock -despite for the Voith Maxima-, the work behind, teaching SimuGraph how an 112 is able to reach 160 kph is invisible for the users, we will only see the 3D-model, that will look similar to the 143.

    It's maybe the time for DTG to rethink about their refusal to add 'vintage' german locos, a 218 DLC with the right DoStos would maybe a good turning point, before it is to late...
     
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  31. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    Not regarding this small lists of modern electric locos that are not based on locos that are already in the game, you're probably right:
    BR 152 (Siemens ES64F)
    BR 189 (Siemens ES64F4)
    BR 192 (Siemens Smartron)
    BR 193 (Siemens Vectron MS)

    BR 102 (Škoda 109E)
    BR 147/187 (Bombardier Traxx P160/F140 AC3)
    BR 159 (Stadler Eurodual)
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Which are pretty much just tweaked versions of the existing 182 and 146/185.
     
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  33. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    They are similar in their electrical components, but that's nothing we see in TSW. The models and other components that are important in TSW are so different that they can't be built out of copied material from existing rolling stock.
    And the locomotives from Stadler and Škoda aren't based on anything we have, neither in the game nor in the real world.
     
  34. conniethunder

    conniethunder Active Member

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    I don't know what to say.

    A 'Nwebie' to train sims and especially tsw2.
    I watched the vid, and that shows a live perspective of what Matt/JD were up against.

    I ask you all...
    ....If you are paid more, that will help your children and wife, but spend less time at home,
    ....or, paid less, that can't help your family as much, but spend more time with your children and wife,
    .....Which do you choose?

    Apply it to ANYTHING, and you get your answer as to the person you are..
     
  35. 59321747

    59321747 Active Member

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    The time span for posting routes is large!
     
  36. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    So I now watched the stream, and I have one word to describe it: bruh.

    Americans will understand, although it might have reached other countries by now, and I’m sure about that.

    I was planning on purchasing this route, now I’m in doubt. The 112 is, well, meh. It’s basically a 143 with smaller headlights, the audio is trash, and so are the dostos. They’re now an immersion breaker for me, since it’s obvious that you can’t exit the train without falling in between the platform and the train. Heck you might not even be able to board without crouching, how realistic is that? If DTG only went that extra mile (more like extra half mile) and included the high entry dostos, then I would actually consider this route.

    The freight services: meh again. Nothing new here either. The MRCE 182 is a copy paste version of the original DB 182, with the same sounds and the same cab. It even has DOOR CONTROLS, when it’s supposed to be a freight loco! The freight cars: DTG just grabbed the ones from MSB and RRO and threw them in here. I’m sure there’s more to just auto racks and intermodal cars. I already own the original 182, and I see no point in repurchasing it just so I get it in MRCE livery, when it’s clearly an easy livery that can be created with little to no skill in the livery designer.

    All the other dlcs included at least one new train, why couldn’t they at least add the correct dostos? It’s not that hard! HBK was in development for plenty of time, and it could’ve been spent further on the creation of the high entry dostos. Of course, not everything about this route is negative, because Hamburg Hbf looks very nice, and the rest of the route looks great as well. It’s just the trains that could’ve been improved. I would take this route if it at least had correct dostos.

    In the end I might buy this route, just because I don’t own the other dosto and freight related German routes, but the recycled assets in this might drive me towards purchasing MSB, with its broken 146.
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Supposedly the 146 has been fixed; we're just waiting for the patch to be released.
     
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  38. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    That’s good news, and if there’s a sale on Xbox soon then I’ll for sure pick it up, if I don’t get tempted to buy HRR and the 101;)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
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  39. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    The new business model will be:
    New route uses recycled trains only, because that's quicker and cheaper.
    Want a new and well modelled train: buy a loco DLC. And then use it everywhere through the poor excuse of a scenario planner.

    I hope that is not where we are going, but DTG needs to make money in the end. Hopefully they find a better way.
     
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  40. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    By that reasoning you should always buy expensive things and not expect the corresponding level of quality for it, giving companies a free pass to put out whatever they want.
    Dont know why you try to get all philosophical here. DTG have set the bar themselves with prior releases, so why should I pay the same price for less effort taken?
    Don't worry, it will most likely sell as hot cakes still, so it ultimately does not matter if that makes me a bad person for apparently not sponsoring the developers out of goodwill.
     
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  41. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    If they are actually planning to transition to such a system in the background they should just dump the included locos at all and reduce the price of the route to half of its current price.
    Most probably they will maintain the current system but rushed HBK without rethinking what this massive amount of recycling does to the communities trust in the product.
     
  42. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    You know what i think dtg has forgotten what there own games about.

    It's "TRAIN"sim world!
    The world worth being part of while waiting for the next new route or train dlc to get added.(All the trains will be used but new ones help make it worth comning back for more new adventures in this world)
    (Now mixing some new and old trains together in new routes is fine,but unless something is actually new and not just recycled old stuff it doesn't count)

    I just hope someday dtg remembers what there game was about.
     
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  43. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    No , that is not what I said . I said that it was aimed towards players of all nationalities who want to expand their German collection . You might’ve seen I said that if you read my message
     
  44. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I think in summary, also based on what was said in other threads, it
    does not come down to the 112 being a recycled 143
    does not come down to the 182 being a reskinned 182
    does not come down to the Dostos having low-entry instead of high-entry doors
    does not come down to reusing existing freight wagons.

    Sure, if one of these points came up, there would be some criticism, but most people could live with it and accept it. For example, getting a 193 (Siemens Vectron) instead of the 182, I would gladly accept re-used freight wagons. Having a brand new passenger loco, I would accept having the wrong Dostos, as I could clearly see where the development time went.

    But since ALL these points are coming together in one DLC, criticism and disappointment is big. I hope that the sales numbers will show this as well, so that this is not starting a trend for the future, but that we will certainly never know. Would be nice to at least know the real reason maybe? Because from reading between the lines, I would get the feeling DTG is missing some train artists :)

    I personally really keep my fingers crossed for the next German route, that will hopefully be announced next Tuesday, containing an interesting route (something single track for example) and at least one brand new loco (how about a DMU for example).

    Chapter Hauptstrecke Hamburg-Luebeck - done, and maybe come back to it once there is a price corresponding to 50% of what is regularly asked for a new route.
     
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  45. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    I mean That is it exactly for me, I am more than willing to overlook each of the 4 points you mentioned, but not all of them. If at least one of them were improved on I might still have purchased it on release. But as it stands now I won't.
    Unfortunately(?) I feel like this route is still selling very well. The amount of people that came on on stream that all wrote that they cannot wait and will buy it immediately shows to me the audience that most of these dlc are tailored to... Good chance that we here are such a minority that while unfortunate for the devs to read through the topics, ultimately don't matter at all for the sales.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  46. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    I seriously have to wonder if DTG are seeing how far they can push consumer loyalty to breaking point.

    I have visions now of the DTG decision makers sitting around a table like Dr Evil and his clan, laughing incessantly at their dastardly deeds.

    The attempt at justifying the lower door Dostos and the lack of cab car on the 101, just strikes me as insincere. They must have known this would prompt this sort of response, yet carried on regardless. So that’s two DTG DLC with half-arsed commitment. It’s a real shame.
     
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  47. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    This route could be on sale and I still wouldn’t buy it. Why should I give them money I’ve took time to earn when they can’t be bothered to create the correct dosto because it takes too much time?

    Sorry DTG, actually, I’m not sorry, do it right or not at all, then you’ll get a sale off me. Until then, try harder!
     
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  48. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Just throwing in my 2 cents.

    HBK/HBL seems to be killed by a thousand cuts. I think we can agree on the scenery being good. Hamburg Hbf looks good and as I remember (though dead, but that's a core problem, not a HBK/HBL one). The problems start with a pile of smaller issues - every one of them not too bad on their own, but it adds up.

    The 112 looks off and is half recycled. The DoStos are wrong. The 182 is recycled with minimal change. No new freight cars. The freight timetable looks rather uninspired. Then there are the sound issues - I didn't hear the sounds too clearly in the stream, but I still mention them as they've been brought up by other users.

    Right now, I'm very conflicted about HBK/HBL. On the one hand, I'd love to get my hands on Hamburg Hbf, drive the 101 there and the 182 in MRCE livery looks lovely, but on the other hand, there is this enormous amount of little issues (little as in not a catastrophic failure). Maybe the next stream will help me make up my mind.
     
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  49. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I was tempted to buy HBK for a few reasons:
    1. I enjoy all of the German routes
    2. An updated 182 and refreshed 143 (112)
    3. Possibly make use of the DB BR 101 if I were to buy that in the future
    Point #2 is particularly important because although I very much enjoy the feel of driving the BR 143, I have tended to avoid it and other mainline German locomotives due to their catastrophic sound issues. I was even willing to overlook the wrong DoStos just to finally have another ex-DR unit to run (I think they hold quite a lot of personality), and maybe, DTG willing, with good sounds and better physics.

    However, I am disappointed by the stream because it reveals that the same sound issues with the BR 143 persist with the 112, and likewise can be said about the MRCE Taurus and its earlier RT variant. As I stated, I would have completely been able to overlook incorrect DoStos if I could at least remain immersed within the cab and driving experience. But with such poorly-recycled sounds and, frankly, a pretty ugly BR 182 cab, I am afraid that I cannot do that.

    As much as I enjoy Deutsche Hauptstrecken, there is not enough new content here to compel me. Not even the driving experience of the route itself offers something novel. Perhaps I will come back to it in a sale or if DTG makes improvements later on. I am doubtful of the latter, so I think I will wait for the next release. Schade.

    Cheers
     
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  50. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you, but I'm very curious about the post-launch 'trust' ratings. Innovative, full of content CRR ~ 65% on Steam.
    Here it will probably go around ~ 75% or more. Reheated chops, however, probably sell better sometimes. It worries me too.
    I have the same. It's a bit sad, it's easier to buy a new DLC than waiting for fixes. Hope they don't do it on purpose.
    After all, I am an optimist. The route itself is new and nice. So it's more of a price question.
    PS Or is this an enigmatic Rush Hours teaser? :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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