Train Sim World 2 - Roadmap Update 25/01/2022

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Jamie, Jan 25, 2022.

  1. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Surely the fact that they have asked the question as to how we want to fixed delivered means they are trying to listen to us? And most of the bugs aren't preventing you from playing content, in most cases it isn't as enjoyable or immersive as it should be.

    I don't know why you have to start getting personal and bringing nationality into it?!

    Personally what ever way they decide to do it I wish they would start soon as I am not sure this debate is going to help despite the good intentions behind starting it.
     
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  2. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Surely the fact that they have asked the question as to how we want to fixed delivered means they are trying to listen to us? And most of the bugs aren't preventing you from playing content, in most cases it isn't as enjoyable or immersive as it should be.

    I don't know why you have to start getting personal and bringing nationality into it?!

    Personally what ever way they decide to do it I wish they would start soon as I am not sure this debate is going to help despite the good intentions behind starting it.
     
  3. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    For once I have to disagree with you - at least on that small highlighted part ;)

    Two not so very unreasonable scenarios came to my mind were this indeed could be the case: First, from personal experience, the missing upgrade can hinder a customer from buying a loco DLC for a preserved route. I admit that's not going to have a large impact on the revenue but it does exist - originally I had an eye on the MP15 for Pen Corridor because I really like that route - but wanted to wait for the upgrade to make it feel 'complete'. Now, nearly a year after the upgrade was first mentioned I severely doubt I'm going to make another purchase for it again as my time is limited and I don't think that in the meantime I'll play Pen Corridor in such an amount again that I'd consider purchasing the loco.
    Second, there is still a market left for the preserved content. Many new players came along with TSW2 and some even haven't left yet - players, who don't own the TSW2020 bundle (and will not due to its withdrawal from sale). Those would have to pay full price for inferior routes to todays standard and it's more likely to buy something recently released with the whole featureset than spending the same amount for a product which offers a less appealing experience.

    Which leads me to the conclusion that I find it very strange how it was possible to turn last years quite euphoric atmosphere into the current one.
    I mean, I remember when the first roadmaps came out it was quite an event, the streams interesting and there was a time where I was looking forward to more than 10 roadmap items (new DLCs).
    Now there's only one left for me (the 420), I personally haven't watched more than five minutes of any stream for months and DTG find themselves in a position with lots of criticism all over the place.
    Despite delivering a really good experience with recent releases - well at least on PC and mostly Series X...

    It reminds me a bit of Man United with Mourinho or Dortmund with nearly every manager after Klopp - results are there, yet it doesn't feel that way.
    And from a customers point of view it feels very unneccessary in TSWs case.
    Comparing to the efforts put in the game it feels like a minimum would be required in order to solve current issues- but honestly if they always are colourfully described as rocket science difficult it makes you wonder how on earth games can get developed at all or if they are not coincidentally found alien technology...
     
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  4. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    You are quite right, it will have a small effect on sales of related DLC and in my case I never bought the M3 for LIRR partly because the route itself hasn’t been fixed to a playable standard. However, for me it wouldn’t have been an extra purchase but just a factor in choosing something else to buy instead. Other issues like the current PS5 DLC limit has stopped me from buying any DLC for a while now, with the exception of Hamburg in the sale, and to other players just the quality of some routes will be enough to have the same result. I just don’t see how the addition of PIS system and some working crossing gates to NTP is going to increase sales of that route because it isn’t currently broken to a point of unplayability.

    In the longer term sales of older DLC will increase if they are improved to a level closer to newer DLC in terms of features but it will never get close to what DTG will get from new DLC in the short term. A lot of dedicated players are quite resilient in their acceptance of having to wait a long time for improvements but I think a lot of people also abandon the game due to all the frustrations it comes with. Promises of improvements that don’t materialise will have an effect in that too, so the more DTG can improve overall will be good for them, but in terms of priorities for revenue putting more time into testing new DLC to make sure they come out in a better state initially may well make getting older DLC improved in a timely manner even more difficult. It’s the sales of new DLC that drive DTG and efforts to make them much more appealing is probably what has caused the backlog in QA. In a way they can’t really win, and we live with the frustrations for longer.

    Increasing QA capacity like I and others have suggested does have a quantifiable cost to it and maybe DTG don’t feel it will be covered enough by the marginal increase in revenue from legacy DLC for the investment to be worthwhile just now. I think they will have to do it at some point because the game is progressing, new features are coming, and DTG are getting bigger every year.
     
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  5. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the people who fix bugs may not be the same as the people who make new content but the people making the content are the ones who developed the bugged content in the first place so it should be easy to temporarily move them into the bug fixing team.

    I agree that they should continue making new content, not only to keep the revenue stream up but to keep user interest up. There needs to be a balance though. If people expect new releases to have game breaking bugs (many of which are experienced on day one by users, which is a damning indictment on testing), this is only going to affect sales as people will wait and see how good it is before purchasing. I’m afraid I fall into this category now. I haven’t bought Dresden Chemnitz yet as, although it has generally good reviews, there have been problems with crashing identified on Xbox (which is the platform I use).
     
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  6. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Well, let’s see, TSClassic has well over a decade of being on the market and is still kicking, go over the the MSFS 2020 forums and you will read the same comments about fixing bugs and releasing new features as in this forum with the same predictions of doom, the same vows of voting with their wallets, the amazing amounts of armchair MBAs and software engineers that know how to do everything better than the current company,. To be quite honest, it all gets to be reparative and frankly a bit of a bore.
     
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  7. rilijsellard

    rilijsellard Member

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    It wouldn't be a permanent stop selling the DLC it would be temporary . They could even reach out to their player base I bet some of the people here would be more than willing to help test bug fixes I know I would in a hurry .
     
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  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of Dresden-Chemnitz, I bought the route a few days ago for my series X. I had a $10 Xbox gift card that a friend gave me a while back so I ended up spending $16.99 on it which is a steal. Ironically I had no crashes on the route and I played it for 5-6 hours doing RE3 and S3 services The crashes seem to happen on Series S and 8th Gen console it seems from what I found. I was gonna refund the route when I heard about crashes on next gen but since I didn't have issues, I didn't refund it. I enjoyed the route to be honest.

    But honestly I wonder how dtg does testing on 8th gen consoles. They say they test items but then how in the world is 8th gen and Xbox Series S users getting memory crashes. It makes no sense because that is a game breaking issue. I thought DTG would never release a product if there was a game breaking issue.

    Honestly i feel like 8th gen and 9th gen players should probably take the statement that dtg test things with a grain of salt and don't buy dlc's on day one like I did with this route. If dtg tests dlc's then there shouldn't be memory crashes on these routes which again raises the question on how they test their product because their has to be a problem on how they test if memory crashes aren't popping up on their end and yet when customers get their hand on the route, memory crashes happen. Or perhaps they do happen but they release the route anyway just to get initial profits
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
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  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The thing is DTG usually develops a route dlc's in 6 to 9 months so right now there could be a dlc in development that we don't know about. They can't stop making routes or loco dlc's because that's how they make money. That's the business model dtg put in this game. DLC's make money since DTG don't release a yearly game. If they don't release dlc's or stop production of dlc's then they won't make money even if it's temporary.

    What would be better is if dtg can get it right the first time so routes won't be released with issues that are so bad or even game breaking such as memory crashes and leave it to the Preservation Crew to fix and release a year later
     
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  10. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    While that is usually true, it isn’t at the moment. DTG decide on a annual basis what the coming year’s (April-March) DLC are going to be. Those discussions are happening right now and the choices have yet to be made, so right now the routes in production are Harlem and Liverpool, the last of the 2021-22 set. Another half dozen or so will be selected soon. (Also, DTG only have the staff to have two routes in production concurrently. It was just one at a time; Sherman Hill and Chemnitz were the first routes developed in tandem)

    NB: “Production” of course is a slippery term. It probably doesn’t include research, and may not include concept art and preliminary asset building, stuff the film business would call “pre-production”
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Don't know what proof you have on this, but it's my understanding there's multiple teams which can (and do) work on multiple routes so even if two are the main focus other people can develop things alongside. The Pres crew jumped on some of the RH work for example (three routes being worked on at the same time)
     
  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    AIUI, the RH routes were developed sequentially. It was Matt who said in a recent stream that SHH and DCZ were the first time they were able to have two routes in production at the same time.

    That doesn't of course preclude Adam's people being pulled off their regular jobs to help out, or for that matter bringing in second-party contractors like Rivet, Skyhook or TSG
     
  13. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Fixed that for you... :mad:
     
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  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Be nice. Rivet did a lot of the Cathcart scenery and it's very good.
     
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  15. BlaringHorn

    BlaringHorn Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm not the one to speak, and I don't want to turn this personal or derail the thread, but I have to say, so does the constant "whining about the whiners" here and on Steam forums. I just find it a bit ironic.
     
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  16. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    It constantly amazes me how much " insider knowledge " some people have about the inner workings of DTG, even though they don't work for the company. You really don't have any more idea of what's going on in Chatham than any of us. Am I right?

    I have no problem with speculation, but you need to label it as such.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
  17. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Many firms in the real world take into account losses that are un-foreseen all the time no?

    I agree with you fixing these preserved routes generates no money, directly that is. But then you have players that have stopped buying any DLC until the fixes are released. I haven't touched TSW2 for months because I'm waiting for the GWE stuff, once it gets released then I will look at other DLC. There are many different reasons how it can affect DTG's profits. You also have players that have turned their backs on TSW2 altogether and have gone to TS1 or Run8 ETC they can all add up no?

    What about new customers who fancy a preserved route but hold on buying until the route is updated. There is a saying 'you have to spend money to make money'

    And here you are getting bored, again.
     
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  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    All I am doing is relaying what people who do know (primarily the Executive Producer) have said on streams or in these forums. Based on what The Man Matt P himself has said (augmented by Sam and Nat), this is how TSW's dev cycle works. It naturally makes perfect sense from a business perspective.
     
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  19. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. And how about someone, maybe on console, who wants to try out the game, buys the " Rush Hour " or deluxe starter, finds it buggy or has crashes etc.. Will that person buy additional and new routes? And will he or she recommend the game to their friends? There's sales and revenue impact right there.
    That's why it's so essential to think of fixing existing dlc along with producing new products and features as part and parcel of the same process.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
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  20. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    You also need to factor in people will recommend the good after updates. Only got to see that on facebook
     
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  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Naturally upgrades and bugfixes mean revenue. If they didn't Adam's crew wouldn't exist. DTG definitely spend money on those things. The question which might arise is whether they spend enough money, but to answer that first one has to answer the question how much money bugfixes and upgrades are worth in terms of revenue- and that figure is I think highly indeterminate.
     
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  22. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, although I don't myself rely much any more on the streams for information about what's going on in terms of planning and production. I don't, for a moment, doubt the sincerity of those presenters, but I think there's a lot of opaqueness and PR mixed in with the discussions and I often think they avoid some of the hard questions. Maybe I'm overly cynical but I prefer " seeing is believing. " when it comes to what's in the pipeline. I mean they're a commercial company. I think the information is carefully prepared. Oh, and I do think that there are many more than just two projects being worked on in parallel.
     
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  23. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I agree- for a given definition of "worked on." Like "production," it's susceptible of broader or narrower interpretations. It is certainly the case, for example, that working out the Simugraph model for steam engines has been going on for quite a while, in parallel with the DLCs of the last several months. Does that mean Liverpool was "in production?" Not, I think, in the sense Matt meant when he said only one route (or two, just lately) were "in production" at a time. Certainly it's the case that one must use variable definitions if we are to square that model with the statement that a route takes 6 months or more to "develop", since they are released roughly every two months.

    However, one thing which I think we can take Matt (and Nat, in her most recent stream) at their word on is that future routes are selected in batches on an annual basis, and that selection process takes place early in the calendar year, in late Jan-early Feb and in time for the start of the fiscal year on April 1.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
  24. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    So when were Harlem and Liverpool- Crewe selected? Surely some time in late 2021. Or last Jan/Feb?
     
  25. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Harlem, yes, I think last Jan/Feb, along with everything else. Liverpool maybe, but I get the feeling that as the first steam route it may have been a special thing off to itself- especially since it would be the seventh, not sixth, route of the cycle.
     
  26. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    Actually the post-update was somewhere in December when they mention it.
     
  27. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The upgrades we are talking about here are mainly for TSW2020 routes that were the original preserved collection that haven’t yet been released due to the QA backlog/bottleneck. The general state of bug fixing is another matter which relates to DTG’s ongoing issue of having broken bits across all their DLC. Of course until the work already done is tested and gets released there won’t be anything done to the TSW2 routes but we are told that Rush Hour routes are still the responsibility of the main teams and haven’t even been passed to Adam yet. The fixing of bugs found when routes are released is another ongoing area that DTG should improve but isn’t related to what I believe is being talked about here, which is Adam’s legacy work.

    If we are to talk about fixes to routes released in the last year in addition to the ones waiting to be tested and released then the situation is even more depressing. Initially it may have been thought that Adam would be creeping up on routes and eventually catch up to doing fixes on recently released content. That was the impression I got when he started out on his updating and fixing quest. That hasn’t happened, and he is further behind than when he started through no fault of his own. We are all in agreement that big improvements are needed to get more fixes done and released.
     
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  28. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="dhekelian,
    And here you are getting bored, again.[/QUOTE]

    With the same old arguments and the same postulations of doom all over again, yes I get bored ….
     
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  29. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Well I’m interested to see what the next road map yields now following all this
     
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  30. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    One part of me is thinking we might finally see a couple of those long completed pres updates being released, however another part of me is thinking absolutely nothing will change. I’m more leaning to the latter, given how things are going.
     
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  31. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think there's an evident increase in forum reaction to the delay of them now so I dare say there's been some screws getting tighter on quality teams to sign off and a slot be located in the very near future. I think it will be probably be covering two to three routes in one hit
     
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  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I just realised something I should have long ago, and now I feel rather daft: since the QA team are company-wide across all franchises, it means Matt P isn't their boss... and therefore cannot simply order them "Thou Shalt Get Adam's Stuff Done Now."
     
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  33. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    With the same old arguments and the same postulations of doom all over again, yes I get bored ….[/QUOTE]

    As boring as being told the preserved fixes/updates are finished and not released, that is 'boring' as you keep saying. If the fixes were to be released then there would be a lot more happier people on the forum. Just out of curiosity why do you spend so much time posting that you are 'bored'. go and do something that interests you. Basket weaving? There is a suggestion.
     
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  34. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    I believe it might be fixing the brand new routes that they start to release such as The Rush hour routes-Bakeroo Line, London Victoria, Kolhn Alchen, and other german routes such as the ICE, and ESPECIALLY THE AMTRAK ROUTE and the brand new Chemnitz route and all the other route that was released in 2021, which still has problems with FPS Drop and Lag, and Stuttering, red signal so that it's up to standard like the preserve collection.
     
  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that the newer routes simply have a Lot More Stuff going on in them than the older PC routes do.
     
  36. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    Still, I believe that the team is going to move right on to fixing problems in the newer route as well, or else we as a player going to complain again. Because currently I have been getting FPS Drop in some of the newer routes, especially the Amtrak-Boston to Providence, without any problem, and I am sure that the community wants the newer route to also be fixed as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2022
  37. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    As boring as being told the preserved fixes/updates are finished and not released, that is 'boring' as you keep saying. If the fixes were to be released then there would be a lot more happier people on the forum. Just out of curiosity why do you spend so much time posting that you are 'bored'. go and do something that interests you. Basket weaving? There is a suggestion.[/QUOTE]

    - Here is a suggestion - why don’t you not worry about my boredom and not suggest I go elsewhere - If my comments are not in agreement with yours - you can ignore them. My statements that the most arguments are the same over and over again are germane. But hey - it is your right to keep repeating the same - have fun with it

    Best
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2022
  38. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I see we are into the mature responses now - Here is a suggestion - why don’t you not worry about my boredom and not suggest I go elsewhere - If my comments are not in agreement with yours - you can ignore them. My statements that the most arguments are the same over and over again are germane. But hey - it is your right to keep repeating the same - have fun with it

    Best[/QUOTE]

    I'm having a ball with your comments, they crack me up. I have no problem with 'disagreements' healthy debates used to make the world go round, it would be nice if you actually joined in one for a change. But please keep the comments coming...............:cool:
     
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  39. mrchuck

    mrchuck Well-Known Member

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    I hope they’ll include the Hsp46 locomotive with the bilevel coach’s in a future Dlc for the Boston sprinter route someday soon.
     
  40. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    Was over the moon when I heard another Swiss route was on the agenda. Then my feelings of joy turned to disappointment when I heard Rivet Games were producing it. Their track record when it comes to route building is poor and West Cornwall Local is only about 60% finished. There is still a lot of work to do to get WCL looking right, that I will not buy their Swiss route until there is a 40% reduction and if at all. WCL is now selling at 40% off and truthful it is not worth paying more than £10 for imo.
     
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  41. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I continue to refuse to buy anything Rivet make - even if heavily discounted. If they can’t be bothered putting the required effort into the route, I can’t be bothered playing it.
     
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  42. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he’s moved up in the chain but is he not the almighty leader we sometimes like to imagine he is. I hate to think that TSW updates are being delayed because of an ongoing challenge to get a troublesome fish through QA but you never know, it could be the case.
     
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  43. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Actually, as someone who has played quite a bit of Train Simulator, Rivet's track record is actually exceptually well, with many high quality TS DLC that far surpassed the quality of anything DTG ever produced for Train Simulator.

    Rivet's TSW products are of lower standard, yes, but I think that's rather an exception to their overall track record.
     
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  44. tibomatthijs

    tibomatthijs Well-Known Member

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    Rivet's DLC aren't always great, same as their fixing etc. But they are getting better slowly, WCL was not too bad scenery wise. Deff looking forward to the routes ngl!
     
  45. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    WCL looks nothing like it does in real life. The only thing they did was add unrealistic amounts of trees adjacent to the track so that you have a very limited field of view, to hide the lack of surrounding scenery. It’s a very poorly made route, unless you have no idea as to what it looks like in real life.
     
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  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This applies to all routes. I don't know any route where someone hasn't said something's missing or the wrong colour or shape... From fences missing, level crossing barriers missing and bridges the wrong shape, size, material, color...
     
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  47. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with that. All of their works (Br 204, IoW, Arosa, WCL, 38 Stock) suffer from severe physics issues or inaccuracies. I don't like to bring it up since there's enough bashing already, but there seems to be a significant lack of learning on Rivet's part as far as physics are concerned.
     
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  48. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Some things are quite pedantic, however missing fences and level crossing barriers, for example, is a big thing here in the UK. You just wouldn’t find this in real life here due to how strict we are with safety and security.
     
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  49. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    How about a 100 year old wrought iron bridge right next to a busy level crossing that everyone in the town would know about?
    Some things may well be "pedantic", but to others that makes the locality known
    Personally I would say anything within 20 yards of the track ought to be as authentic as possible, with varying degrees as you get further away, but then I saw comments on West Cornwall where people wanted every hotel on the seafront, a castle 3 miles from the route and so on all faithfully represented. Pedantic to us, real for those who know those items in real life and "it's just not real without"
     
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  50. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I would say a certain distance from the track it has to some what authentic but also the trains themselves. I was well up for the 38 stock but a bit disappointed with the interior. I hope that mods can step in and rectify this.
     
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