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Train Sim World 2 - Scenario Planner

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Jul 17, 2020.

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  1. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I’m very happy that DTG is communicating with us on this subject, as in the past this is not something we would be aware of. So I applaud DTG for taking the steps needed to do so. If we don’t receive one of the earliest routes, NEC and the sw1000 and AC64 that means we will still be receiving 21 of the 23 available TSW DLC in our preserved collection. NEC is the one route I’d be happy to let go as I have already put a lot of time into this route in TSW. The SW1000 is also one of the most lackluster DLC we have revived. I can understand why some people feel disappointed. Acting like it’s the end of the world is being a little dramatic considering the content that is coming.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
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  2. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    No. I would like inaccurate marketing materials, that are the end-point for all in-bound links.... to be removed. This is to improve clarity outside of this Forum space. Not everyone reads the Forums. Everyone else is being pointed towards that wrong information.

    The existing marketing materials are marketing materials that DTG are not 100% sure about. And they have to be 100% sure. It is part of the information that is used by informed consumers to make purchasing decisions. It cannot be false, or misleading, or misleading through omission of key facts.

    No need to be abusive. Why not just stick to talking about the subject matter?

    Look, I think it is wonderful for you that you are very relaxed about the goal-posts shifting. It's fabulous to know that you are satisfied with the way things are being communicated, and I take great heart from the fact that you appear to be relatively unconcerned about things changing from what was perviously advertised. It's really nice. But...... in order to satisfty more people, with more demanding criteria, like complying with the law.... I think that DTG need to do just a little bit more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  3. kylel2036

    kylel2036 Well-Known Member

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    I mean NEC was right next to were I live but at least we may get more good US routes
     
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  4. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Your being a bit dramatic now aren’t you? Your expectations for what DTG should be doing is very unreasonable. Considering the game isn’t available for purchase, and considering it’s only been recently brought to the light this is obviously something that is still being determined. Encouraging more from a developer is awesome. Bullying a company is what your doing and the fact that you are bringing up legal matters over DTG not changing their marketing material over such short notice and wanting it without DTG not even knowing for sure is absurd.
     
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  5. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Yes I agree with you, I really think TSW2 will open up the chance for some really outstanding US freight routes especially with the addition of adhesion physics. I have a feeling Sandpatch will hold us over until we get another USA freight route.
     
  6. kylel2036

    kylel2036 Well-Known Member

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    I mean you don't have to like DTG to like the TSW franchise but I wouldn't go as far as to threaten legal action against them.I mean Im not sure if plastic is synthetic angel but synthetic threatend legal action because of a glitch one tiny bug that doesn't need legal action
     
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  7. kylel2036

    kylel2036 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah they got me with those new screenshots of the adhesion today
     
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  8. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Nope. DTG are planning to sell a product. You have to describe that product truthfully, and accurately. If they know that the information they are giving is misleading, then they should stop giving out that misleading information, prior to selling their product. This is reasonable. And it is required by the law in the UK, and across all of Europe.

    They can actually leave the marketing materials up as they are, with risk attached to it - but that makes things more complex, as the onus would then be on DTG to take extra-special care to alert all customers (including via third-party vendors)..... that they might have been exposed to incorrect information for an unreasonable amount of time. The longer they leave non-compliant materials up, the more extra-special action they would need to take to mitigate the risk that a customer might have been misled.

    Nobody is actually threatening any legal action. It is just a good thing to comply with the law. It is also a good thing to communicate truthfully to your customers (including customers that have not seen the corrections on this Forum).
     
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  9. ItsDJdoubleH

    ItsDJdoubleH New Member

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    I mean seriously? I love the ACS-64 and I got so excited when they announced this because I thought I was finally going to be able to use the Amfleet Cars on low level platforms and drive the sprinter on a route where I could actually get up to speed and do fun things with it. This is really a disappointment after I got my hopes up and am very disappointed with DTG for this. I don’t really care about upgrading the route but at least bring the rolling stock forward. They should bring all the TSW1 locos forward, I mean this is really unbelievable. Will not be purchasing TSW2 and will be urging others to do the same. Never posted on the community before but this is such a disappointment I had to create an account just to voice how awful of a decision this is. Take the time. Upgrade your products. Fulfill your promises.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
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  10. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Sam said it is not coming in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  11. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that for most people it will not be the end of the world, but we were told that there wouldn't be misleading marketing anymore and this is not an step in the right direction.
     
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  12. SaddingtonPlush

    SaddingtonPlush Member

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    As a recent purchaser of TSW2020 and a whole bunch of content - including the two mentioned as 'unlikely' to make it into preserved, I'm a bit perplexed. I specifically asked here as one of my first questions, would the content be useable in TSW2. Then I found the official statement from DTG about this - yes, it's always been about your collection, it comes with you.

    This was at the same time we were told no more misleading information. Only yes or no. Or, to put it another way, no more prevarication or equivocation. Now, this isn't the end of the world for me either. I have a sense of perspective. In the end I can still play NEC in TSW2020.

    First yes, now maybe. This doesn't fit the new message about being straight up with customers. I don't want to come off as negative about DTG, I'm not, and really enjoy TSW. But I'm calling out conflicted messages.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
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  13. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    “The decision has been made to move the release date of Train Sim World 2 to 20 August 2020. The first phase of Preserved Collection Add-Ons will release alongside the game with more to come in following months. There will be no change to pricing and your existing Add-Ons will still be free to download in Train Sim World 2 as they become available. Your collection comes with you.
    Here’s what you can look forward to in the first two Preserved Collection phases…
    Preserved Collection 1 (20 August)
    • East Coastway: Brighton - Eastbourne & Seaford
    • Peninsula Corridor: San Francisco - San Jose
    • Caltrain MP36PH-3C ‘Baby Bullet’
    • Caltrain MP15DC Diesel Switcher
    • Hauptstrecke Rhein-Ruhr: Duisburg – Bochum
    Preserved Collection 2 (September)
    • Tees Valley Line: Darlington – Saltburn-by-the-Sea
    • BR Class 31
    • BR Class 20 ‘Chopper’
    • Long Island Rail Road: New York – Hicksville
    • LIRR M3 EMU
    • Ruhr-Sieg Nord: Hagen – Finnentrop
    • DB BR 155
    The remaining Preserved Collection content schedule will be confirmed when we launch Train Sim World 2.
    So, this is just the beginning for the Preserved Collection and we can’t wait to see what you do with the new Scenario Planner.”
    Doesn’t seem very misleading to me other then the phrase “Your collection comes with you.” could be interpreted as your Entire collection but they didn’t say that. Also NEC Isn’t included in these two packs of coming content that they are marketing. Also the game isn’t out and this is obviously something that they came to realize recently if they weren’t even certain if it could or couldn’t be included, to say they are misleading. If having NEC in your preserved collection is the reason you were buying TSW2, then I recommend not buying it.
     
  14. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I would say them telling us NEC isn’t coming to the preserved collection Is DTG being straight up with us.
     
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  15. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    This is what you see in the main TSW2 page right now:

    TSW - Preserved Collection.png

    It doesn't say "some" of your add-ons, so it means all of them.
    Does it look like you will be able to use all of them? No. It looks like 2 of them will be excluded.
    Should they add something like an asterisk and explain that there are a couple of add-ons that can't be converted? YES.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
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  16. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I agree that they should do this with all of their announcements, because in game development even when your part of a thousand person team owned by a multimillion company, things can happen during game development. I think blowing this way out of proportion and saying DTG are being misleading and not following through is the wrong way to go.
     
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  17. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    We are back to square 1. They did not check if they could deliver and they advertised it anyway. If you can't be sure you can convert all the routes to TSW2 do not advertise it that way. Just say that you know how important it is to the community and that you are working on converting as many as you can, which is 100% accurate information.

    It looks to me that DTG doesn't know what they can or can not do with their game engine half the time, which is a huge problem.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
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  18. Lombra

    Lombra Active Member

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    As far as I'm concerned this is akin to listing an item on eBay and neglecting to mention that it's broken.
     
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  19. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    This would seem to be a reasonable and easy solution - but only if DTG are now sure that they understand what content will be in TSW2.

    If they don't know what content will be in TSW2, then they just need to make it clear that they don't yet know what they have developed, or hope to develop.... or thinking about hoping to develop..... depending on what stage they are at. But of course, it doesn't make for good marketing to explain that you have a "Partially Preserved" collection, with some unknown and as yet unconfirmed amount going to the scrapyard.

    I am still very positive for TSW2 - I just wish that someone at DTG had an understanding of what is likely to be included, before they broadcast to the world some random untrue stuff that hasn't been checked by anyone that actually understands the scope of the product. It's Oakville all over again - but much worse......
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
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  20. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Honestly DTG should just have left all of TSW routes in TSW2020 and started new with TSW2 as the $30 price is well worth it for the three routes and features included without any of the preserved collection being present. I’ll let you guys be upset with NEC not coming and how DTG did you wrong while I and many others are enjoying TSW2.
     
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  21. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    As a programmer, I'm gonna be with you in this one. I would prefer that they left everything TSW1 related behind in exchange for a solid foundation for TSW2. TBH, I want to be positive but I fear all this last minute addition of features might not end well in the long run. Hope I'm wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
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  22. SaddingtonPlush

    SaddingtonPlush Member

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    We might have to disagree then Matthew, because this is what I'm talking about:

    It can't be both ways - is it straight up about all our content? Or straight up about not all content? Only one of them can be the truth. The other is not the truth. So...
    Anyway, other businesses do this kind of thing all the time, it's not like I'm surprised :D
     
  23. ItsDJdoubleH

    ItsDJdoubleH New Member

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    That doesn’t change the fact that it’s quite annoying and a huge letdown for everyone who loves Amtrak and the Northeast Corridor. Plus it just makes me think Dovetail is just going right back to their old ways
     
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  24. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    我正在購買TSW2
    yes
     
  25. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I also hope that you are wrong. The key new positive change (and it is a truly massively positive change) to the specification is that Scenario Planner will allow interoperability of all locos and routes. The other aspects of the TSW2 feature set have a huge amount of potential for replayability and extra challenge - I am talking about adhesion.... And the Livery Editor has great potential to be a bit of fun, if it has a decent set of features and standard decals. So I remain very positive about TSW2. I just hope that somoeone has decided to test it all, before it goes on sale.

    Maybe someone could write a check-list, and run through the check-list to see if everything is present and correct in the Release version.... before permitting the product to be released.....?

    But I disagree with you about splitting the DLCs between TSW and TSW2. They have decided to port the back catatlogue for a reason - they want to continue to sell the TSW DLC under TSW2, and not split the market (and effectively end the market for TSW DLCs). So.... DTG are actually incentivised to carry forward DLCs like NEC - and they will be as disappointed as any NEC fan out there - it would be a great route to permanently sell at a 50% discount (to recognise the relative quality of the route), to make it a cash cow for all new TSW2 players. It would not surprise me to see it re-appear at some point (as they once said that CSX:HH could never be re-mastered.....).

    But there is no excuse (in my mind) for not taking across the GP40-2, the ACS-64, the SW10000R and the ex-Metroliner (and their consists) - rolling stock doesn't need much work to make it TSW compliant in TSW2, to be used interoperably in Scenario Planner. I am not suggesting that these rolling stock are remade for Livery Editor (as that could be a full rebuild/redesign).

    STRONG HINT........: Hopefully we will at least get the NEC rolling stock back (plus the GP40-2) - it can be done easily enough by pinning them all to the remastered CSX - if they need to be "re-associated" with an actual route to work.
     
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  26. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    By the time the game is available to buy all marketing materials will reflect an accurate picture of what is in the game. In addition, the roadmap will detail when the preserved collection will be transferring into the new game and we will reiterate at that point what is not coming. Since the game is neither available to pre-order or buy at present there is ample time for people to educate themselves with regard to what's in the game, not least of all because those who are already tracking it with interest are already aware of conversations like this.
     
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  27. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    ok thank you
     
  28. SaddingtonPlush

    SaddingtonPlush Member

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    Yes, I tried educating myself (see my first post here ever) :) I referred to the official information but as it turned out, I failed the class.

    I think the page that says "your collection comes with you" should immediately be altered to something like "most of your collection"..., since DTG now know this is not the case. I know you, Protagonist, are not responsible, and I'm aware of the disconnect that can exist between Marketing, Devs and Management. At my own workplace the Marketing dept can often be the bane of our existance. But it's a simple fix is it not? Alter a sentence or two on a web page?

    But there are people right now considering buying TSW2020 and DLC based on the official stance right now. I was one of them only a couple weeks ago. Prospective customers should be able to just refer to a front page and believe it: not need to follow in-depth discussions like the rest of us obsessives ;)
     
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  29. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    It has been flagged to be updated.
     
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  30. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much this. Not to mention that there is probably people reading it in the Steam Store page right now. Adding an * with an explaination now might be enough. If you do it in 2 weeks, a lot of people will have lived with the incorrect information for a while and might not read the full store page again to see if there is a new * line hidden anywhere in the wall of text.
     
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  31. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    That is absolutely spot on. But there is another point.... a process point, which can be described like this:

    1. Decide what content you want to include
    2. Include the content
    3. Test the content will work
    4. Tell everyone about the content that you have included

    And not like this:

    1. Tell everyone about the content you hope to include (but as if you will include it)
    2. Include some of the content you told everyone about
    3. Decide to exclude some of the content you told everyone would be included
    4. Don't tell everyone about what you have done (or not done)
     
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  32. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Your collection does come with you. You can’t say it means your whole collection and you can’t say if it means some of your collection as none of this is specified. You can assume that they meant all dlc but it doesn’t say that. I’d Consider the amount of TSW content coming to the preserved collection is your “collection coming with you” even if one or two dlc don’t make it.
     
  33. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Will new Add-Ons be released for Train Sim World 2020?
    All Add-Ons released after the launch of Train Sim World 2 work in Train Sim World 2 only. We have to do this in order to take advantage of the new features of the sim. Preserved Collection will mean you can bring all your older Add-Ons to Train Sim World 2.
     
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  34. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    There is definitely that approach. However, if that approach had been taken with the launch of TSW2 it may have been announced and released after all the preservation work was completed with no function available to use that preserved content in the scenario planner, and we’d have been stuck with no chance to drive anything anywhere. The fact that the info was out there earlier gave us the opportunity to say “hang on a minute, that’s not good enough” and brought about a positive change. There are benefits to the current approach.

    I definitely think there should just be a quicker way of amending marketing material when things change or inaccuracies are spotted. I think it is currently partly managed by agencies outside of Dovetail itself and therefore has a long turnaround time for anything written to be altered or errors corrected. That could be looked at.
     
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  35. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Considering we just have found out about this situation, don’t you think it’s being a little unfair to expect them to have all of their marketing changed ASAP? Have we even given them a fair chance to change it before saying that they are misleading with their marketing?
     
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  36. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Given the situation and DTG now knowing that one route and loco will not be brought over to TSW2 changes should be made to all the marking and website now as it is misleading.
     
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  37. LIRRGuy

    LIRRGuy Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree....the NEC still felt kinda dry even with the SW100R. We still havent recived bug fixes for the ATC and the rest of the safety systems thus why i only bought everything else but NEC and SW100R
     
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  38. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Let's be clear: although electric-powered railways do not burn oil, producing the current that moves them does often involve burning oil or, even worse, coal; at least that's true in most parts of the U.S.
     
  39. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    No. The first we heard about the exclusion of NEC and associated rolling stock should have been after the marketing material had been changed - everywhere, and then we could have been pointed towards it, and briefly told what the changes were. That's the clean way to do it (but.... only given that they got the initial assessment of scope wrong).

    Yes. An even cleaner way to do it would be to check what is going to made available, before you tell people the wrong thing. That would require having a functioning QA team that is able to communicate its findings. Also - maybe the software development could be project managed - with the marketing phases only taking place after things have been tested and confirmed as features....?

    But even without these basic management concepts in play.... changing web pages is easy - DTG is a digital media company, for crying out loud.

    ---------------------------

    I am making a fuss about it, because if the message isn't taken onboard.... then this sort of fiasco will happen again and again and again and again. I want to be in a situation where I can trust what DTG says. So for example... as it stands... we now know that NEC won't be ported to TSW2. And we "know" that everything else will be going across.

    But.... last week we "knew" that everything was to be ported to TSW2 - and (incidentally) the marketing materials still reflect what we "knew" last week...... So.... how can we know whether what we now know is what we will know next week? Maybe next week we will "know" that the Livery Editor isn't being included - because maybe it has't been tested yet....

    Maybe NEC isn't the only thing that will get dropped. Maybe GWE and WSR and OSD....etc.... are all in the frame for being dropped. Maybe we get to find this out next week....?

    Inconsistent messaging shatters confidence.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  40. LIRRGuy

    LIRRGuy Well-Known Member

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    All i know is that NEC is gonna be the only DLC left out as Protagonist had said that its been confirmed that its gonna be left out...but it doesnt mean that GWR is gonna get left out. I mean unless DTG had a good reason to leave out NEC
     
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  41. LIRRGuy

    LIRRGuy Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't say partially. I would say mostly perserved collection since most of them will be converted.
     
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  42. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I actually think that you make an excellent general point (and we have made things better by giving DTG robust feedback). But they should have known long ago that they could not (or would not) port NEC across to TSW2.

    Oh - DTG apparently has teams of marketing people. Multiple marketing directors. Marketing liaison. Marketing procurement people. They are not short of marketing resource - so there is no earthly reason why they couldn't get the marketing correct... and in the worst case, amended at very high speed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  43. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    How do you know? How can you have any confidence in anything that is currently being said.... ? Did you have confidence in what was previously said - which turned out to be untrue....? Will you have confidence in what will be said next week, if what is being said this week turns out to be wrong?

    How can you be sure - when the formal marketing parts of DTG say the opposite to what Sam is saying.......?
     
  44. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    i have nec or sw100r train
     
  45. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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  46. 37114

    37114 Active Member

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    I’m curious. Why is there a limit to the number of custom scenarios you can have on a route? 30 isn’t a lot.
     
  47. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Consoles usually do not have as much free space as a PC usually has.
     
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  48. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    And they have also said that it was a good number to start with, with the scenario planner in general they have said they will update it as time goes on so if it does seem like less space then people need there’s a chance more space could be added in the future.
     
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  49. ItsDJdoubleH

    ItsDJdoubleH New Member

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    Let me ask this; to not bring across the SW1200R and Amfleet Cab Car ADD-ON seems borderline dishonesty from Dovetail as it is a TSW2020 add on and it was said that your add-on's come with you. NEC was built in I think so I can understand the decision not to bring that but under their current wording, the cab car and switcher have to be brought across.

    If the decision not to bring any of the Amtrak staff across is finalized, it will be a very bad decision by Dovetail games, and effectively a kick in the teeth for the railfans between Washington D.C. and Boston. You're not making friends here DTG.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  50. kylel2036

    kylel2036 Well-Known Member

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    I mean it was a kick in the teeth for me but since I live in nyc I will love the LIRR route.But my hopes were up for DTG but what don't I understand no too hold my breath
     
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