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Train Sim World 2 - Scenario Planner

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Jul 17, 2020.

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  1. SaddingtonPlush

    SaddingtonPlush Member

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    Naturally, I understand you're not a DTG employee Matthew, but:
    Use of ambiguous language to avoid commitments or change the goalposts is called equivocation.

    Removalist: we will move your things from your old house to your new house.
    You: hey, you left one room's worth of things at my old house!
    Removalist: well, you can assume we meant all your things, but...

    A business loses trust and customer good will with equivocation.

    From what DTG said, I thought they were done with equivocation.
     
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  2. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn’t consider DTG will lose trust over such a small issue compared to the work they are doing. I would consider that TSW2 doesn’t become available for another month, if you purchased the NEC dlc with the sole purpose of playing the route on TSW2 you can fully enjoy it in TSW2020. I think it’s better to have a little of these two things if you are interested in any video games no matter the people creating them.
    rea·son·a·ble
    adjective
    1. (of a person) having sound judgment; fair and sensible.

      em·pa·thy
      noun
      1. the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

     
  3. ItsDJdoubleH

    ItsDJdoubleH New Member

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    I did too, sadly I think we were all mistaken, DTG has gone right back to their old ways... Time to find a new sim I guess
     
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  4. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    They aren't.
     
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  5. kylel2036

    kylel2036 Well-Known Member

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    I think some people will buy the NEC for TSW2 so they could use it for scenario planner & if this happens that person will be mad.
     
  6. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    745C0050-C43C-4B5E-87DF-4A6F00E5FE0E.jpeg 324A9B75-BC7B-4310-8E4C-791FD87B6E68.jpeg ED0AB73C-AFD0-49B1-A997-869CE37E2CA4.jpeg 4D623190-8F05-4094-9BD1-950D4095EBDA.jpeg 80C6B0EF-5285-4134-A995-76B2AC2D0D48.jpeg
    Great Western express
    Rapid transit.
    I’d say your collection is still there.
     
  7. ItsDJdoubleH

    ItsDJdoubleH New Member

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    It depends because some of us haven't purchased the majority of the items of your iPhone screenshots. For instance, the NEC and Switcher make up a considerable majority of my collection, so when you look at it from the perspective that 40% ish of my collection isn't coming then I'd say my collection isn't still there in TSW2.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  8. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    If someone buys TSW2020 DLC for TSW2 for that one reason I could understand being upset but honestly they shouldn’t have purchased it before TSW2 is released.
    As you can tell from my iPhone screenshots a lot more content exists then NEC and the Switcher. I’m glad 60% of your collection is coming over to TSW2. If you find the absence of NEC and the Switcher dlc in the preserved collection not worth the $30 price point for TSW2 the great news is you can enjoy the routes on TSW2020 and you can always buy TSW2 when you can accept that fact.
     
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  9. SaddingtonPlush

    SaddingtonPlush Member

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    I agree, being reasonable and empathetic are good qualities for everyone to have.
    So too is being honest with language/PR/marketing. 'Honesty'.

    We can agree to disagree though. I can see your side, and on my side it's not the end of the world. I still enjoy TSW2020!
     
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  10. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    The announcement of “bringing your collection over” wasn’t meant to deceive us and making it out to be that way doesn’t seem right. As DTG didn’t announce they were bringing the scenario planner into the preserved collection until recently no one should have bought this dlc for that reason. Honesty is them telling us it wouldn’t work a month before TSW2 releases and if you do feel deceived I suggest you not purchase the game.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  11. lucas_5_5

    lucas_5_5 Well-Known Member

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    Well, which part of the NEC do you all think its going to be made? That fits around 40-50 miles...
     
  12. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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  13. SaddingtonPlush

    SaddingtonPlush Member

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    Meanwhile from DTG's website at this very moment:
    Your purchased Train Sim World 2020 Add-Ons will be available to play in Train Sim World 2

    I purchased NEC, and while I don't feel deceived, I see deceiving messages. There's a difference. This isn't addressed to you Matthew, but to DTG, or perhaps Protagonist so he can carry our feedback, so that DTG are at least aware.

    As for your suggestion of not purchasing the game: it's quite possible for someone to want a company to do the right thing, or improve in certain areas, while at the same time liking their product, and being willing to pay good money for it.
     
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  14. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    nec is good route
     
  15. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    My concern is that DTG can't be bothered with correcting the marketing materials right now.... because they might not know what to corrrect them to.... because maybe they don't yet know what will be in the product, because maybe they haven't tested it yet.

    DTG could put out a formal disclaimer now that says: "Your purchased Train Sim World 2020 Add-Ons will be available to play in Train Sim World 2.... um..... with the exception of the NEC route, the ACS-64, the Amtrak switcher, the ex-Metroliner cabcar and the GP40-2, contrary to what we said before.....".

    But what if that turns out to be wrong again.... and more stuff gets dropped next week? Then they would have to re-write it again. If it is probably going to be wrong anyway, and nobody really knows what will be in TSW2, why bother correcting the current marketing materials now, and dragging the various DTG Marketing Directors away from their private golf-courses for a few minutes every week......? Also - surely "truthful marketing" can be left to the last minute before the product releases - you know - do a bit of 'bait and switch'..... for a few weeks first....? Or maybe wait until after the customers have tested it - then everyone will know what is included (in a functional state) and what isn't, and why not run the risk that nobody notices any non-compliance with consumer laws - because anyway the law doesn't apply to everyone, and surely the regulators with be sympatthetic and understanding......?

    That would include me. I like both of their products, TSW and TS1. And with TSW, I like thier product on both PS4 and on PC. And I am very sure that I will like TSW2 (on both PS4 and PC).....

    ..... but I would still like DTG to improve their approach - and the reason why is because I want them to be x10 more successful than they are now.... so that more people can enjoy TSW and TS1 (and be "retained"), and for my own selfish reason - because I want to be able to play TSW and TS1 for the next thirty years. This is the only reason why I push so hard. I am extremely pro-DTG.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  16. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    I am extremely pro-DTG. yes me too
     
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  17. Dirk Wilkens-Hagenkötter

    Dirk Wilkens-Hagenkötter New Member

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    Will it be possible to set up a schedule for the player train and the AI trains? When should the player arrive at station X, when should he leave. When does the AI train arrive, when does it depart?
     
  18. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Maybe? Or maybe but considering you have always made a mountain out of an ant hill (Even when going by the name “Synthetic angel”) it doesn’t surprise me that you are here doing it again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  19. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    The current descriptions of the game in all places will remain in place until they are changed. Obviously.

    Why not just make these simple changes now? Because it's probable there will be more, and we only want to change those descriptions once, when we're certain there won't be any further changes to make pre-launch. Constantly moving the goalposts on these pages will do more harm than good.

    That you would prefer everything to reflect 100% accuracy a month from launch has been heard loud and clear. So would we. For now, we're sucking up that there is a small inaccuracy in the information available so we're not constantly chopping and changing as development continues.

    This is a core piece to understand: the development of Train Sim World 2 does not stop with its launch. I'm not going to hint at any future changes except to say that what the game is on day 1 will not be the same as it is on day 100. To that end we will continue to make changes right up until our launch candidate build is locked, at which point we'll know exactly what is and is not present.
     
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  20. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Then there is a simple solution - make one change to the materials now to make them true (even if this means that they have to be vague), and stop them from looking like the "bait" in a "bait and switch", with a wish-list of features that you are not sure can be delivered.

    To do this - you just need to make sure that the descriptions do not imply that there is any specific content (that you are not yet sure about), or any "complete" set of content (such as "all" ported TSW DLCs). It's quite simple - if you don't know what content there will be in the product - then don't start listing that stuff until you are sure.

    It now sounds like DTG is not sure about any of the content in TSW2. So at the moment, we could assume that:

    - there might not be any routes at all, included with TSW2
    - there might be no Livery Editor
    - there might be no Scenario Planner
    - there will be no ability to "take your TSW collection with you"... any of it.

    Because the situation might change to the above situation. It's a "moving feast"..... You have said that further change is probable.

    TSW2 could be an empty shell with virtually no content in it - but maybe we will find out the scope six hours before launch.... Until then - here's a dreamy wishy-washy list of things that you aspire to include - and please start thinking about making an informed purchase decision on these likely to be incorrect specifications - and even though they might all get wiped out just before the product is put on sale.

    That is bait and switch. It isn't just illegal (and requiring judgement on evidence) - it is expressly prohibited in an expressly prohibited list of illegal marketing methods. And the bar is quite low for breaching the prohibited list - any evidence of this activity is a breach. Mitigation and compounding aren't considered - it's just a direct breach if there is any evidence for it.

    Just to be clear - this is probably enough evidence to demonstrate a clear breach of the requirements:

    "Why not just make these simple changes now? Because it's probable there will be more, and we only want to change those descriptions once, when we're certain there won't be any further changes to make pre-launch."

    I am actually trying to help you guys. But if you want to take the risk - then that is your choice.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  21. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Boston to Providence.
     
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  22. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    The only problem I see with any of this is your ability to turn such a small issue into something much bigger to the point that again, you have to threaten the use of legal matters to deal with it. Whether you know it or not, your time on these forums are full of resentment and even to the people that are upset with this, think that your taking it to the extreme. I really would like this community to grow and change with TSW2. Your great at writing and getting your point across but your good qualities are overshadowed by your preference to bring everything to the extreme, no matter what the issue is. Like how you made threads demanding and threatening legal action over the RSN 155 sound bug before your “Synthetic angel” account was banned. The only reason you seem to be on these forums is to jump at any chance to tell DTG they are “wrong” and create a hostile community.
    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...155-and-the-class-47.21552/page-5#post-153102
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  23. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    You can argue that you haven’t been banned, and that it wasn’t you. Just from these two posts.....? You can tell it’s you very easily. So stop pretending you haven’t hounded this community and developers for years. 9B12480B-2B1A-428F-BA53-1853FDE59700.jpeg E3912CA6-7B81-4C2A-81A7-1FCD6F574783.jpeg
     
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  24. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why you are making a personal attack.

    Why don't you just set out the merits of your argument, so that it can be discussed. Maybe you believe that, broadly speaking, that mismarketing is perfectly okay? Why not set out your reasons for that (if that is the case) - rather than resort to personal abuse?

    It's also perfectly okay for you to have a belief that the law is wrong. So when the consumer laws are going through the next evaluation cycle then you can respond to any Government consultation exercises - and let them know that you'd like the "red tape" removed, so that Service Providers have more freedom to lie about their products. Including consciously lying. But while the law is in place, then it should be complied with - it is on this basis of law that we have a modern society where it is possible to enjoy train simulation games.... rather than existing in a post apocalyptic Mad Max type world where "anarchy reigns supreme".......

    The TSW2 marketing materials are not "aspirational" ideas (like with previous enthusiasm for an Editor in TSW) - they are a "product description" - this is absolutely clearly the function of the materials on Steam, for example - which is explicitly a vendor-space.

    It is completely unacceptable to advertise a product to have certain specifications in the full knowledge that they are subject to probable change, without making it prominently clear that those materials are at hazard of being completely or partially untrue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  25. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    The reason why more firm response is required (than you would normally expect) is because DTG are continuously:

    - sailing close to the wind;
    - from the thin end of the wedge;
    - leading onto a slippery slope;
    - dropping down to a lake that is covered in thin ice;
    - which is rapidly melting above a cauldron of boiling hot water.

    There is always going to be a tension between delivering high quality, at low prices, in good time.... for Customers...... and making a profit for the Company. I would just like the process to be communicated clearly - and fairly. And as an absolute minimum - legally.

    DTG are still not listening. They said that they would hold themselves to a higher standard in communication - but have almost immediately dropped that commitment. I hate having to go the full eleven yards on this..... it is really tiresome (for me).... but unfortunately it seems like it is necessary. I would much rather be waxing lyrical about the joys of the Bakerloo Line - and using my efforts to actively promote the DTG train simulators. Both of them. On PS4 and PC.

    And just to be clear - none of this is Sam's fault.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
  26. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Yet here we are, with an official answer from DTG on the matter and you are still tiresomely pushing that they have “deceived” us. Why don’t you just quietly go through the correct channels if you feel that this situation is “breaking the law” as if it’s as bad as you make it you certainly should have 100% the case to make. Your obsession with making this issue bigger then it is, I think is the real crime. If DTG doesn’t meet your ridiculous standards, why not go find another train simulator that doesn’t dissatisfy you so much.
     
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  27. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    That answer, if it is official (and I suspect that it probably has been agreed within DTG) is to continue to publish misleading marketing materials as they are....... in the full knowledge that they are misleading.... and that they are likely to become even more misleading..... until....

    .... until....
    just prior to the release of TSW2 (or whenever the Release/Production candidate build is ready) ..... and only then market the product with accurate and truthful information. At the eleventh hour.

    It's quite remarkable. And it's illegal. It's not about standards. It's about compliance with the law in multiple European territories.

    Most importantly - it's about being fair to us - or... at least..... the part of the Community that doesn't want to be treated like a carpet.
     
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  28. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    DTG have been fair to us, especially since the announcement of TSW2. You should be looking at what your doing, as you are being unfair with the way your acting.
     
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  29. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    With respect, I disagree. I believe that it is fair to ask a Service Provider to comply with the law, with respect to the marketing of a product that they wish to sell.
     
  30. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    yes i see
     
  31. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    Locking this thread here, and I will also lock other threads on this subject if they continue in the current endless cycle.

    Plastic Pal You have had an answer repeatedly. Continuing to spam the same topic repeatedly is unhelpful and will only result in your posting privileges being removed.

    The content of the two current informational pages regarding Train Sim World 2 is the remit of the marketing team. Changes to dates or pricing is in the hands of the retail team - any changes to the latter are handled separately to the former. I have already highlighted that several members of this forum feel strongly that these two pages should be updated as soon as possible to avoid misleading anyone. The pages will be updated before the game is put on sale.
     
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