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Train Sim World 2 - Steam Technical Considerations

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Mar 29, 2021.

  1. mariner86

    mariner86 Active Member

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    In the USA Strasburg Railroad would be a very viable option. I personally would like a large mainline steam locomotive. Specifically the Norfolk and Western 611. It has operated at Strasburg along with their own fleet I would like to see the #90 and #475 As a route its not all that long or exciting, but for a place to operate various locomotives it would be pretty good. They have one of the best respected Steam restoration shops in the USA and do a lot of contract work for other railroads. I think they even worked on the drive wheels from the Big Boy.

    The Reading and Northern Railroad would also be a great option as they have two operable steam locomotives. Reading 2102 is just completing restoration and the 425 is a classic. It is a much longer route, and you can actually get up to a good speed. The 425 stack talk when running upgrade is pretty impressive. They also are a really great short line freight operation. They haul a lot of Anthracite Coal. I believe they would be an excellent addition as well. Either of those two routes would be great. I am definitely hoping for a large mainline steam loco in the game for sure. I am a big fan of 4-8-4’s they are designed for speed and power and are quite impressive.

    Adding a Challenger to the Clinchfield would be pretty awesome as well!

    I think it would be really great if they could work with some of the organizations that preserve these locomotives in the USA. They are always struggling for funding, and with new rules there are not a lot of mainline steam excursion here anymore. I think the people involved in those groups would love a simulated version of the locomotive, as well as getting the organization out to a wider audience. Some model railroad companies have collaborated with various groups and donated some of the sales to the preservation organizations to help keep the real locomotives running. I will be happy with any US mainline steam, I’m really hoping for 611!!
     
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  2. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Rode the Strasburg Railroad a bunch of times, especially as a kid. It's only about 25 miles from me.

    Not familiar with Reading and Northern- do they do any passenger excursions, or is it just freight? Sounds cool in any case.
     
  3. mariner86

    mariner86 Active Member

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    Yes at least pre-Covid they did. I know they plan on it again they have a 4-6-2 Pacific #425 and are almost done restoring a reading T-1 2102. If you’re in that area I highly recommend checking them out. I rode a fall foliage excursion the same weekend 611 was at Strasburg. They used to typically run there excursions front the Reading Outer Station up to Jim Thorpe, PA and back again. There is a pretty good hill climb and the locomotive really has to work, it put on a great show! They also have a set of the former NS F-units as well. I think some RDC cars also. Really cool line.



    https://www.rbmnrr-passenger.com/schedule
     
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  4. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Sweet- thanks for the info!
     
  5. Daytona

    Daytona Active Member

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    Great article, thanks Matt & Sam
    Wondering what the breakdown in CPU & GPU usage is for different game elements eg scenery, loco physics, on the most complicated engine at present and how steam will compare. How you'll limit it and what the balance will be.
    What's the thinking on the physics engine in AI steam locos ? A really reduced (different?) version to reduce processer load, that just generates puffs in relation to speed ? How is AI physics handled in the existing locos ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
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  6. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I'd like DTG to make the first ever steam route (for passengers) as a tutorial or an introduction to Steam for new players and then do the iconic Mallard as another celebration of Steam and make it compatible with the RailDriver to make use of its levers and buttons ETC, would be immersive imo.
     
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  7. Blu

    Blu Member

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    Does RailDriver allow you to select a range of positions for the reverser as per steam usage? Steam engines isn't a simple thing to simulate like a modern diesel or electric unit. They are very complex in respects of modelling on PC. This is why we have never had and accurate steam loco simulation. and why i suspect it has taken so long to get Simu graph to make an accurate representation. You can take two steam engines of the same class and build and they will not work the same. Its all down to the crew, the type of coal, and the build these are all factors which don't affect modern traction, and why everyone switched to diesels and electric traction.
     
  8. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Raildriver can be adapted very well to Steam Locomotives. Use it all the time in TSClassic with steam engines.
     
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  9. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    There is the PRR K4, from 2012, not sure if any collaboration was done when it was made though....
    header.jpg
     
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  10. Blu

    Blu Member

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    That's good, hopefully it will adapt well to realistic steam operation.
     
  11. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Well if you do not think that Smokebox’s 844 is realistic Steam operations, I do not know what to say. Highly recommend you give it a try. And yes the Rail driver with Cobra Ones driver worked well with the 844.
     
  12. Blu

    Blu Member

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    I've only tried UK steam and its not realistic. Having driven and cabbed many rail vehicles. IMO RailDriver is a waste of money for what it offers. Its like having a flight sim and building a bespoke cockpit for say 737, but you fly other aircraft not of that type. Raildriver is the similar except it replicates a modern US diesel set up from what I see.
     
  13. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Well a Thrustmaster TCA stick replicates a Airbus stick, doesn't make it for a Cessna or a WW2 fighter though. Same logic with a RailDriver, just because it replicates a US diesel doesn't make it bad for other types of locos. Pretty ridiculous complaint toward it if you ask me, and I don't even own a RailDriver myself.
     
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  14. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, like I stated, works well for me so my opinion is the opposite of yours based on my hands-on experience with the Raildriver and steam locomotives. I did buy it since I am mostly into North American Diesels and was pleasantly surprised on how much better control it gave for the steamers.
     
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  15. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I only buy English/Welsh routes for TSW2 and own a RailDriver and to me it is still good fun. The only problem for me is that DTG seem to be dragging their feet where it comes to making the RailDriver customisable and getting it to work with the GWE HST and 166.
     
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  16. Blu

    Blu Member

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    Its not a complaint its an observation. My point is its no more beneficial than using the keyboard or game controller. each to their own. But it does throw a spanner in the works regarding those that complain about ultimate reality Then complain a product is not compatible with RailDriver. as said in my original post its my own opinion, so no need to get offended.
     
  17. Blu

    Blu Member

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    I totally respect your opinion and if it works for you, happy days :)
     
  18. rcdevisser

    rcdevisser Active Member

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    At the first glance I do miss a lot of typical issues that should be involved.

    Define the heat source in 9 different smaller heat sources so a donut shape of horse-shoe shape fire can be established as in real life on a real engine. Do not just put a single heat source in the flow chard without defining the heat source in 9 different parts according the numbers on the numpad.

    When this is not included the main source of firing and driving will not be improved and this must now be done. We have waited for over 20 years now to have such an specific engine coming to TSW2. If it must be perfect, then do not skip the heat source. and implement some heat source just like it was so far throughout the years of steamers in MSTS, RS, RW, TS20xx

    What I share here must be carried in in TSW2 as well. The videos I share shows directly and exactly everything and anything that needs to work out and that needs to be done. This works that is carried out by the crew, staff, personeel must be carried out 1 to 1 in TSW2. All aspects must be build in, and without any concession. Even the smallest valve must be operational and working.

    Check out the videos here below











    The videos will tell it all, No concessions should be made how so ever. After 20 years of development we now simply can't say behind anymore.

    Find more of my discussion here:
    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/steam-coming-to-tsw.37039/#post-293285
     
  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Or they could just go with an oil-fired loco......

    <ducks>
     
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  20. steammaster4449

    steammaster4449 Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to disagree with this. Like the post above me makes mention of, there's oil firing, which is completely different to solid fuel burning, which is how TS 20XX handles it. Granted, Smokebox has done a superb job in TS 20XX on modeling as best as possible the oil firing aspect of the FEF-3's, but the game still sees it as a coal burner, which is something I know I wouldn't wanna see make its way into TSW2. I would think with how things are nowadays, that it'd be possible to accurately simulate oil burning, and recreate the challenges of that system.
     
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  21. rcdevisser

    rcdevisser Active Member

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    Heat source was by meaning of coal fire. Oil firing is much much different. For example the German class 01.10 (4-6-2) and class 41 (2-8-2) had in the last period before the steam era came to an end oil burners which burned crude oil that needs to be heated till 110 degrees C. before it became liquid enough to get pumped under high pressure through the fire nozzles in the fire box.

    To achieve this fresh steam was guided through isolated tubes and hoses into the tender heating the crude oil.
    This was very distinguished by the engine crew and makes the engine more efficient that the coal fired predecessors
    Unfortunately TS20xx sees the FEF-3 as a coal fired engine
     
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  22. rcdevisser

    rcdevisser Active Member

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    I have set up an advanced schematic flow chart of a German based coal fired engine with all levers and features that is present at a German engine ans all is operational as an example of having all controls, levers, valves, etc, etc


    Schematic Steam locomotive.jpg


    Included is also the flow of one ejector.
    The Small ejector or large ejector works the same way but the size of the ejector is much different.
    For this reason just one ejector in included
    Most of German engines were not fitted with a vacuum brake but the system is present in the flow chart
    aiming at the British engines.

    Not included are the braking system and the sander system.

    The "Butterfly" shapes represents valves that are operational.
    The "Butterfly"shapes in the rgey boxes are the valve racks mounted on top of /around the boiler in the cabin / footplate
    "Butterlfy" shapes with a box attached to it are directly from the cab operation while driving.

    This scheme should be in Simugraph.
     
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  23. Bertil Persson

    Bertil Persson Active Member

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    Directly to Matt and co:
    My suggestion is to use the future steam engines/trains as chartered enthusiast trains like the trains listed here: https://www.railwaytouring.net/uk-day-trips-2021. That is if you can make a deal with West Coast Trains (or others) to use their red carriages. Maybe Olton Hall and the Hogwarts Express, if you can persuade Warner Brothers.
     
  24. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

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    I believe Olton Hall is actually owned by West Coast too. It's just on rent to Warner Bros. You'd only need the Harry Potter licence from WB.
     
  25. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Just give me the Mallard and I'd be happy.
     
  26. Bertil Persson

    Bertil Persson Active Member

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    I tend to agree with both of you. The enthusiast trains on Southeastern and East Coastway breaks the path, I think.
     
  27. flopel#5127

    flopel#5127 New Member

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    When does the steam train come ?
     
  28. flopel#5127

    flopel#5127 New Member

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    Are the train going to be British?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2021
  29. steammaster4449

    steammaster4449 Well-Known Member

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    Steam'll come when it comes.
    Only time will tell.
     
  30. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I hope we don't just see preserved loco's on preserved lines or mainline railtours. That will be a completely missed opportunity in my opinion. A recreation of Riviera in the 50's in TSW would be sight to behold if DTG get the stock accurate.
     
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  31. steammaster4449

    steammaster4449 Well-Known Member

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    That could quite possibly be how DTG first roll it out. Better to make it, work out all the kinks, and THEN work on routes from back in the days of steam.
     
  32. dcnine#5410

    dcnine#5410 Well-Known Member

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    The only thing that makes me doubt that is that when they announced Rush Hour, they also announced “Spirit of Steam”, which implies to me a route pack with steam era routes.
     
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  33. flopel#5127

    flopel#5127 New Member

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    Conclusion : Nobody knows anything
     
  34. steammaster4449

    steammaster4449 Well-Known Member

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    Hence my usage of the words "quite possibly". Leaves it open to other possibilities like what you described.


    Aside from DTG. But they won't tell anything aside from when it's time. Aside from those announcements, we're just speculating and talking about it, which probably helps build the anticipation for it.
     
  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    As Matt has explained a couple of times, building historical routes is a lot more difficult than building modern ones because the research is so much more difficult- you can't just go there and take pictures and videos, timetables may not be available, God knows what and where the signals and speed limits were, and so on. To couple all of that with the huge job of putting out their first steam loco would be biting off way more than DTG can chew the first time up.

    I would instead expect the first steam DLC to be a loco for West Somerset, because the route is already made, steam engines run on it, and it's easier for DTG to study UK locos. And I certainly wouldn't expect a big, complex loco to start with, nothing like a Big Boy, Challenger or Flying Scotsman.
     
  36. khalidaliishmail

    khalidaliishmail Member

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    Agreed. I'd much rather see steam locomotives in their natural environment being driven in anger as opposed to casually trundling around on some modern heritage route or being out of place amongst modern traction on some railtour. For the USA, where steam was phased out slightly earlier than the UK, I think 1946-1949 would be the ultimate period, as by the early-to-mid 50s many railroads were rapidly replacing steam with diesel.

    Even if the historical routes were semi-fictional in their track layout and timetables (due to obvious challenges recreating exact trackwork from 60+ years ago), but recreate the look of the time period, for me it would still be far more enjoyable and fun than plonking some random steam locomotive on a modern route as a one-off railtour.

    I'm not so sure about DTG launching steam with a single loco DLC for West Somerset. West Somerset route is itself DLC, so people would need to buy the West Somerset route DLC on top of the loco DLC simply so they can use a steam locomotive. Furthermore the West Somerset route as far as I'm aware, has no coaling or water facilities so the route would need to be updated. I thought (and hope!) that the Spirit of Steam title that Matt said they were going to launch steam with, implies there will be dedicated steam routes.
     
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  37. flopel#5127

    flopel#5127 New Member

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    I have the West Somerset Railway. WSR is a museum line, steam locomotives are on Museum line a perfect idea. In Minehead Station is a cole tower, a water tower and there ride steams too.
     
  38. flopel#5127

    flopel#5127 New Member

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    Big boy is to fast for this game, or? And they want make English locos
     
  39. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I agree that WSR is the likely candidate for the first steam loco. I just hope that we don't then see a procession of preserved steam and preserved routes. I wonder about DTG's appetite for historical routes and historical accuracy. I still haven't forgotten the GW "legends" 1970's pack.

    Since TVL we haven't seen a pre 2000's route from DTG and in TS1 most of their routes are modern or modernish. Many of the more historic TS1 routes published on steam are not built by DTG or are early builds, although their are some notable exceptions like Riviera in the 50's and Woodhead in blue.
     
  40. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    We were promised monthly articles on steam, we have seen one now, which was seriously delayed. Nothing seen afterwards. Please give us an update.
     
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  41. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    This diagram is very helpful since the development team might assume that German British and American steam locomotives work the same way. One more question German steam locomotives built after the 1930s should have PZB Installed or if equipped to operate transborder services to the Netherlands ATB needs to be activated.
     
  42. rcdevisser

    rcdevisser Active Member

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    To Continue this diagram I now had made a complete list of Modes to choose which I already mentioned before


    Now pick up the PDF file and watch closely to it. The level of driving is divided in modes and also a customized mode.
    Last mentioned mode can be modified personally to specific desired requirements in a proces list that should be in the settings of TSW2

    Once the steam locomotive is chosen to drive a list should appear to choose the desired mode and also the ability to save the chosen mode when resuming. The mode list can always be approached in the main menu > setting list.
     

    Attached Files:

  43. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    With regard to which route will get the first loco DLC, bearing in mind that all UK and many other lines (except Bakerloo) ran steam trains at one time and many still occasionally run charter steam services, it would be nice if railtour type services could be included for routes other than the route that the loco is designed for. I wouldn't, for example, expect there to be a full timetable service on GWE because it wouldn't look right in the era in which it is set but an extra service or two would expand the usefulness of the DLC.
     
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  44. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Not sure how old the Bakerloo line is but the London underground did run steam engines in its conception. I agree about GWE and personally think DTG have not taken advantage of the GWR route at all. GWE is my favourite route but that is Paddington to Cardiff not just a third of it to Reading, it could have been the best route in game. I only bought the Diesels pack cause there are mods to 'fix' it. I still find it hard to believe how DTG got this so wrong.

    With regards to steam and DTG inability to give justice to night time driving, especially stations, will driving a steam Engine be in total darkness at night?
     
  45. flopel#5127

    flopel#5127 New Member

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    When does the steams comes?
     
  46. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    IOW steam railway would be a great starter route it's only 5½miles so building it wouldn't be a huge job and i think it only has about 4 stations only 2 are bigger ones,plus this would leave more time to build maybe 2 steam engines and 2 two axle and 2 four axle passenger coaches.Plus since iow commuter line already in game it be more like a add on route for that.
     
  47. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    As explained in many DTG streams, the people that huild routes aren't the same people who build rolling stock. They're quite different jobs, so making a short route won't give vehicle artists more time, it would give enviroment artists more time (for the next route for example).

    I do however agree that heritage railways might be a logical first step for steam as they are way easier to do research on than a route set decades in the past. However, I would like to see routes set in steam's golden age, such as perhaps the riviera lime that was mentioned before, a LNER mainline with Gresley's iconic A3 and A4 pacifics, a PRR mainline (perhaps with not only their large steam engines but also electrics like the GG-1), a SP line with the daylight and cab forwards, and one of my favourites, the Preußische Ostbahn, with many old prussian locomotives.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
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  48. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I second this :love:
     
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