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Train Sim World 2020 – In Detail

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Jul 26, 2019.

  1. QNS Chris

    QNS Chris Active Member

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    Quite!

    The A-line is major-league, especially given its ridership. Impressive that they were able to build out the system in such a short span of time (~20 years), and its still not totally complete yet. Large-scale projects like Denver will always have their naysayers, but Denver is doing it right - laying the best groundwork for future growth and development. It's a hell of a lot cheaper to build it now when the density is low than it is to wait until its sorely needed and then build it.

    Total agreement with you re: A-line as a route for TSW. Perfect length, profile, speed - certainly fits the criteria. I'd pile on for that development effort.

    Also, the remodeling you're speaking of once the editor comes out - I'd love to be a part of that as well. There's a ton of potential in the baseline routes that they've created - LIRR especially - and an extra bit of detail in the spaces you've mentioned, not to mention potential expansions (Port Washington, Oyster Bay, etc.) would really add value to the game world and to the experience overall. Even something as minor as touching up the platform level at Penn Station would add tremendous value in the near term.
     
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  2. QNS Chris

    QNS Chris Active Member

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    Ha! In all honesty though, that sounds awkward - reaching down to hand the pass / smartphone to the conductor. I don't know - never ridden on any of the gallery cars. Can anyone else opine how well that works?
     
  3. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I’ve been on the Metra ones.
     
  4. QNS Chris

    QNS Chris Active Member

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    Does it work well, or is it a bit awkward having to lean down to hand a ticket over?
     
  5. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It’s not bad really.
     
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  6. PlatChap

    PlatChap Well-Known Member

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    Joke didn't get lost on me. Thanks for the chuckle :)
     
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  7. NJT Railfan

    NJT Railfan Well-Known Member

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    Actually, they use the P40DC, not the P42DC.
     
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  8. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    True. But then again, I think 14€ is a fairly reasonable price for the locos. With all the overpricing that I see happening in TSW DLCs, that's the one thing I can't complain about. My favourite example is the BR 155. A loco with that detail level for TS19 would probably have been 20€ or more.
     
  9. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    But it want be better if they make the route longer to each Loco DLC like Finnentrop to Siegen or Letmathe to Iserlohn when they bring a Loco for the current Route, so I had no problems when the price want like 25€ for the Loco and Route extension. So I Hope they bring the last Part from San José Diridon to Gilroy when they Include the MP36 and Bombardier Cars as DLC.
     
  10. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Would certainly be interesting to know whether DTG has any plans whatsoever regarding the expansion of existing routes. I don't think they ever spoke about that, yet route lenghts remain one of the major gripes the community has with TSW as a whole.
     
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  11. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they can make a loading screen when you arrived Finnentrop on Ruhr Sieg Nord and after you can drive the final part to Siegen, but the map from Finnentrop and Hagen want be removed, so it want be like you playing a Stand Alone Route same with San José and Gilroy.
     
  12. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    What's the point in even calling it an extension then...
     
  13. RailjetCD

    RailjetCD New Member

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    Watch the new trailer. I don't think it will be there
     
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  14. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    That is a common gripe, indeed, but I don't really think it's justified. TSW route lengths seem about right to me. Of course, I wouldn't mind them being longer, but that would mean either less detail and modelling, or routes being more expensive and taking longer to come out. Nothing is free. So given the choice, I'd choose shorter, cheaper, more detailed, and more frequently released routes, like we have now.

    If you want a longer route, why? If you want more miles of track to drive, does it make a difference whether these miles are in separate DLCs or not? I don't see why it should. To me the fun of driving a particular route comes from the variety of things to do, locos to drive, stops to make, and so on.

    In terms of length of play session, most routes I've played are about half an hour from end to end with express services, or an hour with stoppers. That seems more or less right. If you want to play longer, you can just do another service.

    I would like more variety, though. Most TSW routes to date have been more or less a straight end-to-end run, with no branches except yards and depots. I'd welcome a route which is shorter end-to-end, in exchange for more branch lines (and thus a bigger variety of services and scenarios) for the same total amount of track miles and model assets.
     
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  15. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Well I'd happily pay 40 or 45 Euros for longer routes, because in one point you are right, you can tell from looking at them that an effort has been put in modelling and such. All else... I can hardly agree at all frankly. One hour for a stopper, OK, fair enough, but half hour express rides only... that's nothing.

    To me it makes a hell of a difference if I drive 30 minutes from London to Reading, then 30 minutes from Hagen to Finnentrop and then 30 minutes from Darlington to Saltburn, compared to let's say driving an hour and a half from Bristol to Swansea or Hamburg to Hannover. Just going back and forth and back and forth the very same section of track is not the same. You don't get the same feeling of achievement, of going places, of covering distance and so on. It's a train, not a tram!

    Then, stopper and express is one thing, we haven't even talked about highspeed, long haul services yet. Look at how JustTrains are selling the Great Western Mainline for TS19, except it's Paddington to Cardiff, plus Oxford, plus Exeter, plus some local lines around Bristol, plus the line via Bath. And if that still isn't enough, it's expandable via add-ons to Plymouth, to Penzance, to Bicester, to Paignton, and possibly more in the future. Now THAT's what I call a route. Yeah, it'll set you back 80€ but so be it! I'm not expecting anything for free! Not everyone must buy their games with pocket money. Plus you can buy the collection one piece at a time. Do you know how much some planes for flight simulators cost? And they still sell apparently, judging from them being hardly ever on sale. But well, I'm digressing.

    Back at the DTG side of GWR things, we have... what? Paddington to Reading. Period. Much wow. Is that the best DTG can do? Frankly if it wasn't for TSW's insanely good graphics (don't get me wrong, they are worth something!) hardly anyone (except for some console kiddies who don't have another trainsim to choose) would ever have cared the slightest about TSW. Graphics and the ability to leave the driver's seat. That's about the only true selling points for TSW on PC.

    That variety thing is a very true point again. Note how most of my route suggestions have a small branch splitting off somewhere. It's also why the LIRR has been one of the most enjoyable add-ons so far.
     
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  16. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    It really sucks that many Routes are not full complete because always important parts from routes are missing like Rapid Transit to Magdeburg Hbf. Ruhr Sieg Nord to Siegen and Iserlohn or to Essen Hbf for the RE16, Main Spessart Bahn to Frankfurt Main Hbf and Würzburg Hbf, same with Great Western Express, NEC New York, Long Island Railroad.

    The only route is to 100% full included is West Somerset Railway because it’s a Short Route only.

    Train Simulator get always a lot of contest and route DLCs but there is no problem fot create over 110 Kilometer like Gotthard Bahn or Frankfurt Main Hbf to Mannheim Hbf and this Routes cost only 5 or 10€ More.

    I love playing TSW on my PS4 Pro, but only short routes feels always off to me, because you always really quick finish, They should try to make Routes in TSW 2020 almost 100 Kilometer to see how it want work, Peninsula Corridor are 75 Kilometer or 48 miles.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
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  17. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    The short routes are due to dev time. They have a certain amount of time to build a route, and since TSW routes are more detailed than TS routes, they take longer to build, so they have to make them shorter in order to fit the time schedule.
     
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  18. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    I know. My suggestion is to change that policy. ;)
     
  19. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    In terms of length, (i.e.: total length of track) what would the difference between a long mainline route and a shorter mainline route with numerous branch lines? I agree wholeheartedly with your statement that those who want to drive more just take on another service. However, the new journeys concept may provide a version of that option by offering the option to "work another shift".

    My ideal route would be based on one or more yard areas of various sizes offering lots of switching scenarios and services complicated by dodging through trains while passing from one yard to another. At least one such route is available in TS, but DTG didn't make it.
     
  20. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    To me, the shorter route would be more interesting, for the same amount of modelling effort. I mean, we could have a 100-mile route through empty desert with absolutely nothing to see, and I would find that pretty boring! Apparently not everyone feels the same way, though.

    Have you got Tees Valley? That sounds the closest thing in TSW to what you're describing.
     
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  21. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    I clearly wasn't talking about empty desert. But even if... that's a part of a train driver's life as well. One day I caught myself thinking while slowly moving along on the Soldier Summit route, this must be a bit like operating a ship at sea. There's you, maybe your secondman, your machine, thousands of tons of freight that you are responsible for, and nothing to do but keep moving forward, slowly and steadily, keeping an eye at your gauges, at the route ahead, on and on and on... monotonous, yes, in a way, but also a great exercise at long time concetration.
     
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  22. QNS Chris

    QNS Chris Active Member

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    You're spot on here - DTG has to make business decisions when building these routes, factoring in demand and profitability against resources and effort. While I agree with a lot of the sentiment on here re: length, diversity of routes, etc., I understand that - at day's end - their decision to make a route is balanced against how sustainable it is from a profit perspective.

    In my opinion, they've achieved a good balance of routes and route length for TSW by making regionally diverse selections available at nominal lengths. Of course, I would like to see extensions and greater depth in some of their offerings, but again, DTG is a business, and has to make development decisions based upon their existing business strategy - which, at this point, appears to be paying off.

    My only ask would be additional DLCs for exsiting TSW routes. The Amtrak cab car was a nice add - in the same spirit, the Budd M3 for the LIRR would be nice as well, as would a GWR expansion or electrification mod. To the outside observer, these *appear* to be reasonable, attainable additions which could be developed in a relatively short time span, and would turn a profit based upon demand. Perhaps the situation in-house is different - all one can do is continue to hope and support the franchise as they see fit.
     
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  23. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    I hope they make the Main-Spessart Bahn more accurate in TSW 2020 because it’s on the main game because so much Trains and Locos are missing, the DB BR 294 for the Aschaffenburg Diesel Freight Service, the DB BR 151 is the real Schub locomotive between Laufach and Heigenbrücken, the DB BR 111 and 112 was driving with Modus Wagen from Würzburg to Frankfurt with Locomotive on the Front and at the End and the DB 425 Triebwagen was also driving.

    Here is the 112 with Modus Wagen in Hösbach
    upload_2019-8-3_22-6-58.jpeg
     
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  24. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    Yes, I take that point, and it's interesting to hear a different perspective. A two-hour straight shot isn't the same as two one-hour, or four half-hours, you're right. I'd like to see a route like that, too, and I dare say there are real-life routes, especially in the US, which would be suitable (maybe you can suggest some). For all we know there's one on the way.

    I imagine DTG are making a careful commercial judgment about how many units they can sell at what price, and the sweet spot has been chosen as a route that takes about 3 months to build and costs £24.99. They perfectly well could make one which takes twice as long and costs twice as much, but it's a big gamble. If it doesn't sell, that's a lot of investment down the pan, and the future of TSW itself could be in jeopardy. Until it's well-established in the market, I'm guessing they're playing it pretty safe.
     
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  25. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Yes. It's a bit like that study of damaged warplanes that returned from battle, and engineers tried to reduce loss rates by armouring the areas that received damage most often. That didn't work. What they should have done (and indeed successfully did later) is, fix the areas that seemed to get damaged least often, the reasoning behind that being that planes which received damages here didn't make it back home to be part of the statistic at all.

    Translated to TSW that means: Us here in the forums are probably all TSW players, and not only that, but players who even care enough to engage in the forum and discuss the game. Now let's look at what people say who didn't switch to TSW from TS19 (or even MSTS) in some cases: Most predominantly it's something like, "As if I was EVER going to pay 30 Euros for 50 or 60 kilometers of route. DTG has gone completely nuts with their overpricing." The mile-per-money-ratio*, as I call it. And indeed the length in absolute numbers independent from the money side. This seems to be major contributing factors that hampers TSW's establishment on the market. The call for an all-new, UE4-based trainsim was out long and loud and clear before TSW was announced, and more often than not it was accompanied by the statement, "then we could have longer routes like in MSTS again at last!"

    Now, I'm not suggesting selling 100 or 120 kilometer routes for 30€ as it is typical on TS19, which I can imagine would be barely economical if at all. I'm also not suggesting to sell those 120 kilometers at 60€ - while the increased length (and hence usability) might draw some more players in, miles per money would remain the same as they are now. But has DTG ever considered how 120km for 35, 40 or 45 Euros would sell? My point is, DTG seem to be quite a bit off the sweet spot there. Again, look at what 3rd party developers do with TS19. Their routes are typically more expensive than DTG's but are often regarded as the better choice. Same with loco's by the way. "Try Armstrong Powerhouse or Virtual Railroads or RSSLO if you want quality ad-ons", they always say. And for what I've seen, that's fairly accurate.

    But then again, with a forum full of sheeple who promise to pre-order the Peninsula when all they have seen was a handfull of pictures and a trailer, why should DTG be more industrious? That's in fact the main reason I don't call DTG lazy - they certainly seem to be from the outside, but they are after all in a position to do so. Another nice effect of a sim with so little content available - people will be desperate for anything new coming out. Let's not ruin that comfort zone for ourselves by releasing an editor that allows other people to destroy that high demand market with more add-ons coming out. Possibly even better add-ons than we make ourselves...right?

    Greetings, Mike.

    *length in miles is not the only factor though. Matt once stated that constructing a (passenger) station in TSW is a hell of a lot more work compared to TS19. So for example an ECML Newcastle to York route would be much more feasible than an ECML King's Cross to Peterborough, despite they both range around the same 125 km mark.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  26. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    F for detailed scenery </3 the loco is looking pretty sweet and nicely detailed and it would be a nice mix up from New York but holy damn, thats shoddy looking.
     
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  27. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    Look closer. I think there's nothing there because it's water.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
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  28. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Many good points have been provided on both sides of this debate. I am sure DTG has access to a wealth of information and how people utilize different length scenarios in TS2019. It appears that the sweet spot for length of time for scenarios is around an hour. I know for myself, with a bit over 4000 hours in TS201X, that my available “free” time to run a scenario rarely runs is over 90 minutes. Again, using TS201X as a litmus test, I notice on career scenarios, that most scenarios nearing 90 minutes, few on my friends list have completed those while many have completed the shorter ones included with the route.

    So with this information, coupled with the development time and scheduled release restraints needed for cash flow for corporate sustainability, the current route length / run time was decided upon. Hopefully as more route variety becomes available, opportunities for non route-based DLC increase to sustain cash flow, we will see longer routes or route extensions being developed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
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  29. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Frank I don't see what's wrong. What exactly do you mean?
     
  30. Gae14

    Gae14 Member

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    At first I thought the water was a lavender field or something like that, I find it very dark. Maybe it will look different/better in-game.
     
  31. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I think he means in the distance across the water, the plain hills and a scattering of a few 2D trees.
     
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  32. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    The same spot in Google Earth:
    untitled.JPG
    Looks like there's a bit of city and some other things missing.
     
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  33. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Just wondering —- have you ever been to Southern California??
     
  34. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Well, Frisco has't been in SOUTHERN California either ;)
     
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  35. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Oops...I should have just said California... we just lump San Francisco in politically with the Southern portion however... my bad!
     
  36. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    Maps.PNG

    Comparison with Street View. In my opinion there should be a couple more bushes and grass to hide the plain hills.
     
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  37. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    Very true... but clearly nobody from San Francisco has seen this post yet, otherwise they would have stopped you from calling it "Frisco."
     
  38. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    I've seen routes in TS1, maybe even MSTS, with more background scenery detail than that. Hopefully that's still being worked on before release.
     
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  39. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    The left side looks fine, at least
     
  40. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Pff, the Frisconese? Stop me? How? :p
     
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  41. Railfan722

    Railfan722 Well-Known Member

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    I would say that there aren't enough distant trees there. Also, the water looks way too dark. The Brisbane Lagoon isn't terribly deep, nor is San Francisco Bay - NOAA charts list the depth as being 4-5 feet along the coast. It should be a much lighter blue. That bridge in the background seems to be suffering from a lack of any kind of pillars as well. Hopefully these get ironed out before release.
     
  42. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    From experience, I predict that those things won't be fixed before release. I still hope it will be changed eventually.
     
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  43. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I’m pretty sure this view will remain unchanged. That is often the case when DTG tease images of the upcoming route.

    I’ve got to say that mid to far scenery in TSW is shockingly poor visual wise, and it’s something you’d see in late 90’s to early 2000 games.

    You’d think a brand new route made in 2019 with a next generation engine would produce far better visual scenery than this: FCE788BE-2069-4E91-BCAB-1977BE23565C.jpeg
     
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  44. Wilbnil

    Wilbnil Well-Known Member

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    It's disappointing to see how the background scenery looks in that screenshot, the same with MSB. It looked alot better with RSN which means they have become worse at it. It also ruins the immersion, with a loco and trackside scenery heavily detailed and then an empty field or hill in the background is not good imo.

    Matt said that DTG are looking into ways to make it look better, so maybe not in this release, but in the future it will look better which is positive atleast.
     
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  45. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Yes it looks really bad outside or that the graphics always loading before the train first, it should not happen in year 2019 for high end consoles like PS4 pro or Xbox One X.

    Hope they proof there words for updating everything for better graphic designs
     
  46. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Could the bare landscape in the back be a result of too low visibility settings, eg. too low draw distance for scenery objects?
     
  47. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Nope. What you see is what you see. There are no scenery objects in the distance. It’s literally a plain untextured hill with a few cardboard looking 2D trees randomly placed.

    I’m surprised DTG featured this image in their article, as it quite obviously shows how poor the scenery is away from the immediate trackside.
     
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  48. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    So nobody can say they hadn't been warned :D
     
  49. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind that DTG always states in its route previews that images show work in progress, not the finished product. This statement is included in the latest TSW 2020 / Peninsula Corridor preview : "Screenshots and images displayed in this article may depict content that is still in development. The licensed brands may not have been approved by their respective owner and some artwork may still be pending approval. Screenshots taken on Windows PC."
     
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  50. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Have anyone a Screenshot how the same part looks on TS 18 from Peninsula Corridor?
     
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