Train Simulator Classic Core Update Feedback - Dx12 Experimental Build

I wonder if it is to do with depending on Intel Gen, that P and E cores switching, I know reading that on Windows 10 - 12th Gen is handled correctly and Win 11 its better, but some games and apps play up with the P and E core switching. Might be nothing to do with that, but thought worth mentioning for the i7 issue.

 

I'm just quoting DTG who say that they don't support laptops so if you write them a ticket they most probably say sorry we don't support laptops. I had the same situation with them once as I run Windows 11 on my desktop and they replied we don't support Windows 11. And they still don't support Windows 11 will that what it says in there game specs.
Take a chill pill mate.

 

As others have noted I am seeing an FPS drop 20FPS on average thats just from some pretty limited testing in some areas mainly to try and stress test it where i have had FPS hits pre update and pre expermental build, Manchester Pic on JT's MML HV and KGX on the ATS Leeds to ECML merge with alot of AI in the station to be precise. However I would note the tile load in/tile sutter that causes a drop in FPS that TSC has had issues with for as long as i can remember does seem better, im not sure if this is directly related to DX12 as I am also seeing this with the new update not in DX12 more.

 

The DX12 truth in Train Simulator Classic.

I'm a technology guy, analyzing and debugging Train Simulator Classic with DX12, I found the truth. Truth is, it wasn't natively generated in DX12, where it would be a hit to get great fraps, especially on newer AMD Radeon GPUs. That's why everyone is obtain D3D9 instead of D3D12 in MSI Afterburner, that's a terror, what was done is that they used D3D9On12 technology, that sucks if programmed anyway, because it loads D3D9 first ("d3d9 .dll"), then D3D9On12 Translator ("d3d9on12.dll") and finally D3D12 ("d3d12.dll") is emulated.

Don't you know this D3D9on12 technology? Read the articles.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000091237/graphics.html
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dire...d3d9on12-and-d3d11on12-resource-interop-apis/
https://github.com/microsoft/D3D9On12

 

Just a shot in the dark here, but is it possible that the DX12 version is defaulting to a higher graphic setting than the 64 bit version? That might explain the improvement in graphics some people are seeing, and the woeful drop in performance seen by the rest of us.

Having said that, 'good' performance means framerates of 35-40FPS on my system. That's rubbish. I can run the Prepar3d v5.3 flight sim with a ton of scenery at higher framerates than that, and I usually expect 60-100FPS out of driving sims like Assetto Corsa and Raceroom. While an RTX 3070 is fairly modest, it's still a decent card. My fans spool up like I'm running benchmarks, but the CPU and GPU are pretty much twiddling their thumbs. Coming out of Birmingham New Street, using the normal 64bit version, MSI Afterburner is reporting 28FPS, 50% GPU and just 9% CPU. There's a lot of spare capacity there - why isn't it being used? I know that station is quite 'busy', but it's nothing like the GPU load of 40 square miles of pine forest in a flight sim. There's one train going very slowly - my rig can run a grid of 40 GT3 cars around a racetrack without the slightest trouble.

 

Your rig can run 40 GT3 cars around a race track because the game you are using wasn't written about 18 years ago. That was about when Railsimulator was written which has slowly over the years been transformed into TSC.

 

Hi This is my PC Configurations:-
Processor - 12 gen i5
Ram - 16 GB
SSD - 500 GB
HDD - 2 TB
GPU -1050 ti 4 GB

After update My Railworks is running like charm no FPS drop No Crashing No Freeze Issue No Quick Drive Error while Choosing loco or coaches Thumbnail loading Also fine and Scenario loading time also decreased For testing DX12 I use High End Settings Still i'm getting nearly 60 FPS and In 64 bit same as DX12 in my PC Railworks Working totally Fine.

 

I have an issue with the quality on DX12 let alone the frame rate drop it looks like it is out of focus and it "shimmers" as your view changes while driving this is a screenshot at 4K on a 43 inch monitor I can read the station sign next to the gantry to the right, on just 64 bit it is clearly legible at the same settings. Picture is to big at full resolution to post here.

 

This is the 64 bit version at the same resolution.

 

You have a 8 core/16 thread CPU, and TSC is essentially a single core game. The one core that's doing all the heavy lifting will be maxed out. As for GPU, because the game is single core, you are CPU limited. It's probably as good as it gets unless DTG can find a way to make the game use all cores. Having said that... my GPU is almost always at 100%. It may only be a GTX980, but it's fully utilised, but I reckon if I fitted a 30 or 40 series GPU I'd see a similar result to you.

This is pretty typical of my system usage during play.

 

Run the DX12 version for the first time yesterday. The only issue I came across was a hit in FPS. I ran a AP scenario from the Chatham Main & Medway Valley Lines. Normally get between 40-60 fps, but this dropped to 14 fps. Played around with the graphic settings and got an uplift in fps to around 26 fps. My impression is at this time is cons outweigh the pro's of DX12. Having said that, this is experimental so my expectations were pretty much inline with what I experienced.

My setup is:
ASUS Strix x570 gaming-e Motherboard
Ryzen 5600x
EVGA FTW3 RTX 3080 10Gb
32Gb Corsair Vengeance RAM

 

Ran DX12 today using Midland line, NZ with the class Ja and the Holiday Relief scenario. Graphics seemed ok - don't have actual FPS. Major failing was sound was very choppy - totally unacceptable long term.
My setup:
i5-11400
32Gb RAM
SSD
RTX 3060 12GB

 

I've been running TS in it's various guises for around 3 years now on my gaming notebook perfectly, it is great since the core update too, even better fps rate. It has i5 processor, 16 gb Ram and an nvidia graphics card. Now windows 11. But it doesn't like the new gaming laptop which is the same except for the i7 processor! Strange.

 

I'm no expert but I'm led to believe that the human eye cannot see higher than 60fps so I see no benefit in 100fps...

Eric

 

I just noticed that the count of FPS was lost. As a consequence I don't know whether there is a decrease or not with regard to this. I had blocked previously the FPS at 35 in my Geforce settings, and did the same for the DX12.

 

I've only loaded up a random QD and scrolled through the menus to see if the game would load, it worked fine. But three other things became immediately apparent.
1. Both Steam's fps counter & the fps counter in the Xbox Game Bar no longer appear (so I unfortunately have no way of seeing if my fps rate is lower than normal or not).
2. In the Graphics Settings my native screen resolution (1920x1080) can't be selected. The max it seemingly offers is 1366x768 (however when the game loads it seems to be displaying at my native screen resolution).
3. The Steam Overlay doesn't load when pressing Shift+Tab.
And one other thing I've just discovered. This is probably related to the Steam Overlay not loading. When you take screenshots there is no audial or visual confirmation like there normally is.

I'm running the game with a GTX 1660Ti, 6gb of VRAM, 16gb of regular RAM, an SSD, a 10th gen i7, all running on W10.

Have attached a screenshot showing what I was referring to in point 2.

 

I deleted all DX9.dll files, still the game runs only in DX9 Mode when starting it in DX12. Also made a file integrity check on Steam and deleted the files again...nothing changes. Very strange.

 

It won't change anyway, the game continues as D3D9, because the game still needs the d3d9.dll that is inside the system, the game is being emulated for D3D12, it's not native Directx 12. This is sucks, this game is prehistoric also under construction, nothing has changed in the new compilation, it continues with the same architecture as in 2009 when it was released, it is no use having an CPU AMD Ryzen ThreadripperPRO 5995WX with 64-Core and 128-Threads, this game runs with only 1 core, where any current GPU gets bottleneck due to this.

Read it ... https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...2-experimental-build.69715/page-3#post-646530

 

You definitely can tell the difference between 60 and 120 FPS, after a certain point you get diminishing returns but the difference is percievable all the way up to at least 165 FPS, and competitive gamers say that you can still tell the difference at 240 FPS. Of course for Simulators 60 FPS is perfectly fine since they aren't fast paced like a first person shooter is, if you can get more than 60 though and you have a high refresh rate monitor there is still a noticable improvement from going higher.

 

DX12 loads no problem, not sure if this is an error with this version but using the scenario to the loop on WCML North a HST went by with the front power car and 2 carriages, the rest of the train was just the bogies!!

 

Window-mode is available. But Only in 1024x768.
When edit to other resolution, Window Mode fails.
So TSC ist starting up, i can hear Sound, bit no window with the game.
Frameless mode is working.

 

This is a bug which has been in Train Simulator a long time. If you are sat stopped for a couple of minutes and another AI train comes past it doesn't get rendered properly.

If you switch views e.g cab to external and back then the AI train will magically appear fully intact

 

No issues launching DX12. Graphics clearly better (shaders look better across the board, particularly glass refelctions) and sharper. Colours deeper and more vibrant.

However, same issue with the fps hit. Approx 1/3rd as I’ve seen so far, if I load the same reshade effects I use in DX9 it’s even more marked. I have to tell reshade the game is running DX9 even booting in DX12 mode. If I select DX12 in reshade the game won’t boot.

The issue looks to me that it’s not utilising the GPU efficiently. In true DX12 the GPU RAM runs at a higher speed, in DX9 and the DX12 converted mode it’s being limited to the speed you see here.

If DX12 isn’t working for you at the moment (that could well be everyone by the sounds of it) don’t use it. This is going to be a journey but I’m sure the destination will be worth the hassle.

5800x3D
3090
32GB 3200mhz
SSD’s

Some screens to highlight the differences (reshade disabled);

DX9



DX12

 

True, and also irrelevant. We just experienced what's being described as a major core update. Whist I appreciate that it's probably more about removing redundant code than adding any new functionality, nothing you said there actually answers my question, which was, "why isn't the spare capacity being used?"

Prepar3d flight sim is a direct evolution of Microsoft Flight Simulator 9, and dates back to around 2004. It can run far more complex scenery, far more effectively. Assetto Corsa is admittedly a lot newer, but is still ten years old. The age of the core isn't the problem - it's what it's doing, or not doing that I'm questioning. And what it's not doing is using all the cores of a bog-standard, mid-range processor, which is not really acceptable.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful that the developers are still actively maintaining the game. Clearing out unused code is a great step in a positive direction. But if the game only runs on a single core of a modern processor, I can't help thinking the logical next step is to do something about that before worrying about the rendering engine. Even a mid-tier, last generation GPU is locked behind the CPU at the moment. Updating the existing core to DX12 is a bit like checking the oven's off before you walk out of a burning building.

I'm not sure what point you are making. With very fast-moving games like driving simulators and First-Person Shooters you CAN see the difference, but the point I was making is that those framerates are entirely POSSIBLE, whether there's a benefit or not. My system will comfortably deliver those framerates, so that's what I get on my screen, whether I need it or want it. I suppose I could limit the framerate to 60FPS in the driver setting, but what would be the point of that? I don't get cashback for unused frames.

 

We didn’t really experience a ‘major core update’ at all. I haven’t seen DTG describe it as one either. We have, however, experienced the first tranche of a number of updates that was intended to do nothing more than make the game more stable. They have also activated an optional experimental DX12 feature which, let’s face it, is probably more Alpha than Beta.

Beyond that nothing more has happened.

 

Unfortunately, they've also broken quite a bit of stuff as well, and with the past track record...

 

"MAJOR UPDATE
POSTED Thu, April 27
Train Simulator Classic - Update Now Live

With today’s update we have extensively reworked the core code..."

That's directly cut and pasted from DTG's own announcement on Steam. OK, if you want to be pedantic, it doesn't actually say, "major core update". But it does say it's a major update and core update. That's close enough for me. If you actually read what I posted, you'd find my third sentence more or less matches everything you said.

 

I was replying to this point more;

I get the impression that’s the aim but it’s a massive undertaking to update this game. Give them chance.

It just seems (and I’m not aiming this at you) that out of nowhere DTG are updating this game when it looked like that would never happen, yet many many people haven’t bothered to read (or understand) what they’ve said. Reading elsewhere many people seem to have been expecting a single update to transform the game overnight into a DX12 modern masterpiece. It ain’t gonna happen.

Asobo have been working on DX12 for what, 2 years, and they’re coming from DX11. It’s still in beta and doesn’t work properly. All I’m saying is cut DTG some slack on this one.

 

Fair point. I haven't transitioned to MSFS2020, and I may not. I invested fairly heavily in P3D-compatible scenery, and for the type of flying I do, it serves well. I was using the flight sim software to prepare for my PPL, but the pandemic had an impact on that, so I've been using the rig more for driving and space sims. I'm not up to date with the stability of MSFS, but it certainly had an 'interesting' first few years.

You're right about people expecting a miracle. I've been following the update announcements for a couple of months, and it certainly doesn't sound like a straightforward process. As I said, any sort of update is welcome and greatly appreciated. I'm sure there's a solid reason for prioritising DX12 over multi-core support, but I'm equally sure I'm not the only person questioning the logic. Especially when I can't find any mention of supporting multi-core processors in the current roadmap. I'm excited for the future of the game / sim, and I agree that we need to be patient.

 

The logic is likely that ultimately one needs the other. They have talked about multi-threading for sure, in a thread if not a roadmap.

MSFS is amazing, you certainly won’t regret getting it. As a tool for helping with a PPL the visuals are so good you can genuinely fly VFR almost per the real world. You don’t need it though, you can get through a PPL without it for sure! It didn’t exist when I did mine

 

Any idea why the DX12 isn't able to use my 3070? If I tell Nvidia control panel to use it the game won't load, if I remove it the game runs using the intergrated graphics at a glorious 5-7 FPS.

 

Just thought I'd check the forums before trying DX12 experimental update. Glad I did, think I'll leave it alone. DTG seems determined to shed their loyal customer base.

 

You can try it, it’s just a different .exe file. Don’t like it? Then open the one you’ve always used instead.

There’s nothing wrong with it per se, it just isn’t useable at the moment by virtue of the massive fps hit. No harm in trying it though.

 

Few separate things to note.

As others have said it doesn't seem to be running DX12 natively at all, overlays show DX9 is used. For me it uses the DX9 DLL in system32, if I delete that DLL (high inadvisable, don't do this) the game simply won't launch.

I am also getting lower performance, but not to the extent other people are, it's about 10% lower across various situations.

Graphically the one difference I have noticed is that everything looks a lot more aliased, as if anti-aliasing isn't working at all. This is despite graphics settings being exactly the same.

Windows 10, 6800 XT, 3700X.

 

I'm pretty sure this is not how they are doing it. If you load the game with Special K and check the threads, or use process hacker to see file handles, there is no DX12/DX9on12 DLL anywhere.

 

Do you use the laptop?I found many people can't enter DX12 model.Me too.

 

I found that in Window-mode the max setting was working is
<ScreenResY d:type="sInt32">1024</ScreenResY>
when try to use 1050 or 1080 TSC will not work.
DTG- Please to correct this

 

You run DX12 TSC from your Steam Library TSC page by clicking on the Play button and then choosing the DX12 version of TSC.

 

Hello!
My routes Trollhattan Sweden do not start with 64-bit and Bergensbanen Norway with 32 and 64 bit.

 

With all of this none of my applications work after the upgrade you made neither the Train Simulator app nor the railworks64 but the Railworksdx12_64 application that gets this message to me



One can help to give the solution resolved the problem !!!

 

Hi,
I did a quick test earlier in terms of FPS.
64-bit | DX12 | Route
18-19 | 15 | Workshop southeastern network (sitting in Charing Cross in a scenario)
28-30 | 21 | BCC quick drive from Bournevill to Kings Norton
Adding Vulkan/DXVK on top of the standard 64-bit added a couple of FPS.

I've got a Radeon RX 5700 XT, Ryzen 7 3700X, 48 GB RAM and Railworks on a SSD.

 

I can't even understand most of the gobbly gook on this thread but I can report that the DX12 runs very smoothly here with little or no issues during game play. When doing route building it seems a little more prone to crashing on a save (after doing the F2) but in game running the graphics look better to me. I'm not into frame rate madness however I can report there is little or no stuttering between tiles even on those places where a bunch of scenery suddenly jumps into view. i5-10600 CPU @ 4.1GHz 6 core, MSI Z490-A PRO, 16 GB RAM, GTX1060 3GB, win11. I give it a thumbs up at this point.

 

This game will never be native DX12, it is using D3D9.dll talking to D3D9on12.dll and translating to D3D12.dll, do a real-time debug. They would have to rewrite everything again for DX12, within the time it was announced and released it would never be native DX12, so they simply using D3D9on12 technology. Check my log.

Code:

--------  Start of session 
  File 'C:\steamapps\common\RailWorks\RailWorksDX12_64.exe'
  New process (ID 000016D0) created
  Main thread (ID 0000078C) created
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  Module 'C:\steamapps\common\RailWorks\RailWorksDX12_64.exe'
  Module 'C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\VCRUNTIME140.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\apphelp.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\System32\win32u.dll'
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  Module 'C:\Windows\System32\gdi32full.dll'
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  Module 'C:\Windows\System32\USER32.dll'
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  Module 'C:\steamapps\common\RailWorks\plugins\GameManagerDX12_VC64.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\d3dx9_43.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\d3d9.dll'
  Module 'C:\steamapps\common\RailWorks\steam_api64.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\WinSxS\amd64_microsoft.windows.gdiplus_6595b64144ccf1df_1.1.19041.2251_none_91a40448cc8846c1\gdiplus.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\MSVCP140.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\VCRUNTIME140_1.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\WinSxS\amd64_microsoft.windows.common-controls_6595b64144ccf1df_6.0.19041.1110_none_60b5254171f9507e\COMCTL32.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\DINPUT8.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\urlmon.dll'
  Module 'C:\steamapps\common\RailWorks\zlibwapi64.dll'
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  New thread 5. (ID 00000E84) created
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  New thread 7. (ID 00002314) created
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  Module 'C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\dxcore.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\D3D12Core.dll'
  Module 'C:\Windows\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\u0391252.inf_amd64_b298c070ddf486e2\B391109\amdxc64.dll'
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  Thread 8. (ID 00001AB0) terminated, exit code 0
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  Thread 3. (ID 00000C1C) terminated, exit code 0
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  Thread 2. (ID 0000211C) terminated, exit code 0
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  Thread 9. (ID 00001BE0) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 7. (ID 00002314) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 16. (ID 00000514) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 19. (ID 00001ABC) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 27. (ID 00000EB0) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 11. (ID 00002338) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 12. (ID 000016FC) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 20. (ID 00000718) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 10. (ID 0000206C) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 26. (ID 00001550) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 18. (ID 0000250C) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 15. (ID 00001EB4) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 13. (ID 00002420) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 14. (ID 00000790) terminated, exit code 0
  Thread 17. (ID 00000F1C) terminated, exit code 0
  Process terminated, exit code 0
--------  End of session

But if you are still not convinced, just rename the file d3d9on12.dll in ( C:\Windows\System32) and (C:\Windows\SysWOW64), you will notice that RailWorksDX12_64.exe does not run anymore. HAHAHAHAHA.

 

It seems quite a few people get good results using dxvk (vulkan) including me, the only issue I have is the visible outline of objects in foggy\misty weather. Perhaps DTG could look into a using vulkan translation layer tweaked to suit TS.

 

Yeah, I get that, but why bother trying it if the general consensus is that the frame rate drops? I have enough frustration in my life without adding to it. I also play TSW2.....................need I say more? Bugs, patches, fixes , promised fixes that never materialise................

 

I absolutely agree with you .
I think from the beginning (and I've been on the vulcan api for more than a year now!) that DTG should for the moment lean on vulcan and dx9 64 bit.
It would give them time to work on dx12 correctly and find out how to implement multi core.
Personally I'm not ready to upgrade to DX12 if it's to lose half of my FPS.
Currently I am on constant 60 fps it is out of the question that I go down to 30 fps !!

The fluidity is incomparable in 30 and 60 fps if they decide to put dx12 while he leaves us the choice to activate it or not.

 

Yep laptop, would of thought the higher powered 3070 would of been supported.

 

Yes, DTG TSC doesn't support laptops. Check out any TSC DLC in the Steam Store and read the specs at the bottom of any TSC DLC.

 

Pretty amazing that they don't. Oh well.