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Trying To Be Nice

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by FatClemenza, Aug 4, 2020.

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  1. FatClemenza

    FatClemenza New Member

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    Towards the end of Sam's stream today, he quite proudly boasted that the preserved collection for TSW2 was created only because DTG was 'trying to be nice'. It might have been an off-the-wall comment by Sam, but it does convey the general attitude that DTG has had all along with TSW2. Namely, they do not seem to feel an obligation to protect customer investment in DLC. They look at it as a 'favor'.

    Instead of making yourselves out to be heroes, how about instead saying (if you mean it) ‘We created the preserved collection to protect, to the best of our ability, the investment our customers have with us and are commented to doing so moving forward’.

    I was already debating whether or not to purchase TSW2. I still may, but the way the preserved collection is being portrayed makes me very reluctant to purchase additional content.
     
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  2. saint.russian

    saint.russian Member

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    So he just said it like that. whatever. who cares. the truth is it's both. They are being nice (as he mentioned that even though it is "preserved" they went ahead and did some upgrades anyway), AND they clearly state on the TSW2 site that they want to protect the investment people have made. Literally. Read the Q&A. Qs #10 & 11.

    Some people need to stop looking for (or to make) problems where there aren't any. *facepalm*
     
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  3. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I think you might be reading too much into him saying they did it to be nice as part of a chat answer. Nobody speaks sentences like “We created the preserved collection to protect, to the best of our ability, the investment our customers have with us and are [committed] to doing so moving forward” in normal conversation, it would just sound scripted and insincere.

    They have done a lot of work to make it happen, they could have just not bothered. It was indeed a very nice thing to do.
     
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  4. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    FatClemenza You're right in that my wording was perhaps not the best, but it was an off-the-cuff comment, and certainly not intended in any derisive fashion. We recognise that collections increase in importance the larger they become, and that's the reason preserved collection was introduced in the first place. The development of Train Sim World 2 would not only have been more straightforward, but far quicker had we chosen to abandon previous collection. Preserved collection is not only the "nice" thing to do, it's also the "right" thing to do, and that's why we're doing it. Apologies if my wording caused offense.
     
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  5. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    Im just surprised DTG was listening to the community so Im happy to buy TSW2 1st day
     
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  6. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    me too
     
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  7. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Mountains and Molehills spring to mind!
     
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  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Aren't we all suprised that they are actually listening. It's cool they are at least hearing what people are saying and using that to try to make a better product
     
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  9. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Well-Known Member

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    Whilst the comment made on the stream, might have been unintended, I do think the OP has a valid point. DTG have tried to blame the community for assuming things like an editor and multiplayer would soon be coming to the game. Whilst they might be on the right side of the law legally, morally its pretty poor, they were more than happy to take money off people for the past few years who bought into the game expecting these features to included in some point.

    Lets not forget, it was only because so many of us complained about the original plans for the preserved collection that they U turned and are making them more compatible with the new game. Don't get me wrong its good they are doing this, but its the fact they thought they could get away without doing this originally that has annoyed many.

    As a very longstanding customer, I don't feel particularly valued any more and as a result I am also undecided whether I will get the new version.
     
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  10. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It seemed to me, we had moved on, we have had all these arguments, the community was happier, DTG had listened and acted. So, do we need to start another heated debate about how awful DTG are again? Seems counter productive. I would have thought we could just move on and look forward to the next fortnight or so!
     
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  11. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    You have to be correct in everything you say and do in today's world... otherwise the fun police are out in force to correct your behaviour.
    They are usually followed by a howling mob intent on burning the victim at the stake.
    Sam was lucky to escape with just a singed eyebrow, it could have been worse! :cool:
     
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  12. Tay95

    Tay95 Well-Known Member

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    It goes a long way listening to customers and implementing new features which we requested. Don't think we can fault them in any way after this.
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Matt Peddeliston had said about three years ago multiplayer would come to tsw in a video that was deleted in the official Train Simulator channel. Three years later and nothing. DTG does keep making promises that they don't seem to keep until a vast majority of people complain like they did with preserved collection and yet nec can't come to tsw2 because of time constraints. That's just ridiculous especially for people like me who paid $30 for that route. They should take time to port all the routes to tsw2. Like honestly it's nice that they are listening finally but some of the decisions they make can be stupid at times. They should take the time to port NEC to TSW2
     
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  14. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    The fact that this thread was created is sad
     
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  15. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    It DOES go a long way, and I tip my cap to the entire team at DTG. I'm new to the simulator, and quite happy with most everything so far. Having said that, I'm glad I bought NEC on sale. That is the one exception to "happy with most everything." But other than that, it's pretty tip top. I do, however, reserve the right to find fault if fault is to be found. :)
     
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  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully if dtg doesn't continue to do their usual business practices for tsw2, maybe then more people will be happy with the company
     
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  17. jimi01us

    jimi01us New Member

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    Amen.
     
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  18. michael hooley

    michael hooley Active Member

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    We all have different ideas and views, it is great that we have this well moderated forum to express them.
     
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  19. Nick_Brad

    Nick_Brad Member

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    This is exactly why I am holding off, not buying the "new game" on release day, but waiting for those features that are coming later to actually be implemented. I still want multiplayer, even if it's player hosted, limited groups of 4 or 6 people to a server, but i'm no longer very hopeful of that ever happening. I've abandoned my plans for creating a US shortline in an editor and stopped with my learning of the Unreal Engine as I have no plans to create my own game, certainly not with Unreal in any case.
    Now we have a list of things that are coming after release, some of which were supposed to be coming after release of TSW1, I want to see them appear before I part with my money, regardless of how interested I am in the LU route.
     
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  20. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    I really do hope DTG sticks to their promises
     
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  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    DTG really has to working on keeping up with the statements they make. Why should it take 3+ years to implement multiplayer
     
  22. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    When TSW3 is released I will totally lose it but for now I hope DTG is good at what they are trying to do.But for some reason I dont think they will change like whats going to happen in the next few months
     
  23. Nick_Brad

    Nick_Brad Member

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    I think that sadly, Matt messed up big time by saying that Multiplayer was "Absolutely coming", when he should have been upfront and said it was a desirable feature, but they need to work out how to implement it. Honestly, I think the game released a year too early, they should have spent that year working on stuff like MP, the editor, plus other smaller things like PIS, a map with labels etc...... Instead, they've been hampered by this (self imposed admittedly,) timescale for pumping out dlc to flesh out the game, which has meant that much needed features have been left by the wayside.

    All that said, if DTG improves from this point forward and delivers on the many "upcoming features" after release of TSW2 before giving us our first paid dlc, then I shall go and buy into the new game with confidence that they are trying to be better.
     
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  24. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    I really feel bad for matt at this point he seemed very pationate for the sim
     
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  25. Nick_Brad

    Nick_Brad Member

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    I have no issue with Matt or any of the Dovetail crew personally, but when you make a public statement like that, you best be sure you can deliver on it. Were this any other avenue of business, then even a "verbal contract" which is broken, would be means for a refund, especially if you failed to deliver after nearly 4 years. Luckily the games industry has gotten away with it so far, (Dovetail aren't the only ones who have done this in the past,) but when that watershed court action comes against a company for this kind of treatment, then a lot of developers/publishers need to watch out.
     
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  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Matt is probably the most passionate person when it comes to tsw. But I think he needs to consult with his higher ups before making promises that can't be delivered. Also DTG need to give devs more time to implement features and making full line routes. The fact that we can't get good routes because dtg are rushing to release DLCs is not fair. I rather wait for a full line good route and new features instead of a rushed dlc like Canadian National riddled with bugs. I feel like whoever is in charge of dtg really needs to evaluate the choices he/she is making because it's gonna make more customers upset. I get that there a business but they need to make better business decisions and keep up with the promises they make and give devs more time to implement these features
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  27. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me started with OSD back in the wee days of 2020 but if DTG does really change I think it will be too late for them there already known for the game with the most DLC on steam
     
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  28. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Of which you don't need to purchase any of it! It is called having a choice, I haven't a clue why that is considered a bad thing!
     
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  29. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    yes
     
  30. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't going to purchase it in the first place though but from the older threads it's seems like it isn't good I was just bringing it up, I don't want to ensue an arguement about this this forum is already bad enough
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  31. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't aimed at you but for years there have been many instances of people going on about the amount of DLC for TS1 as though you have to purchase it all! They seem to use it as a stick to beat DTG with, where it just means you have a lot of variety. On the old steam forums it was often coming up.
     
  32. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    Oh ok It was a bit confusing at first but anyway I see the steam forums right now seem a bit toxic but anyway I get what you mean by that (a bit silly misunderstanding by me)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  33. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes sorry I should have been clearer. I am going back to some previous steam forums which closed around three years ago, people were going on about the amount of TS1 DLC going back nearly ten years and there wasn't nearly as much then!

    Yes I avoid the steam forums and a couple of others.
     
  34. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    Eh it happens but really the steam forums for TSW2 don't look so good & so much debating over a train sim it's just odd I don't really know what is the situation over their
     
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  35. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    The Steam forums will settle down once the game is out.

    No matter the game, at this stage in its development the Steam forums are populated by those who are most keenly interested in it. Either because they've designed it in their heads and can't wait to get stuck in or, as is the case with Train Sim World 2, populated heavily by those who feel aggrieved that the new game is being released.

    In our case, the grievances are not without cause and have the full weight of several users' passion behind them. Words, at this point will only pour further fuel on the fire, the better course of action being to let the game do the talking when it is released. (Better still will be how we respond to feedback after the game releases, but one step at a time.)

    Those who care strongly about the subject matter are often the most vocal if their expectations are not met. This is doubly true if those expectations are inflated beyond what is practical/possible, as they were with the original game. We're doing our utmost to avoid making that mistake again, but that doesn't change what's happened in the past. Until we're able to delight or impress those who are unhappy, they'll remain unhappy until they throw in the towel and leave. We know what we need to do to deliver on that final point, we now just need to do it.
     
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  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I think if you wanted to buy everything for train Simulator 2020, it all costs around $10,000+ dollars which is ridiculous
     
  37. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Why is it ridiculous? Have you counted how many DLC there are and worked out the average price!

    It is called variety and having a choice, you purchase what you want, when you want and if you want it all and can afford $10,000 plus dollars then good luck to you but I purchase what I want either full price or a sale price and have spent no-where near that much!
     
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  38. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    Nobody can win the "total cost of all the DLC" argument. Your best bet is to quietly leave the conversation.
     
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  39. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Not nearly as ridiculous as your absurd estimate.
     
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  40. Tay95

    Tay95 Well-Known Member

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    obama-mic-drop.jpg
     
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  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    My "absurd estimate is not wrong. Go check in steam mate.
     
  42. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Not worth my trouble, frankly. However, being from Missouri (the "Show-Me" State) I'd like to see the list of DLC and prices that you're raving about.
     
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  43. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Out of pure curiosity, I had a look at the list of TS DLC on Steam and there are over 650 items on it. A figure of 10,000 US Dollars is a fair estimate of the total cost of it all, at current prices, judging by the price range covered. I wasn’t about to add up all the prices to confirm this but there might be someone out there who has. Whatever the total cost of what’s available I’m glad I don’t have a PC and therefore cannot be tempted by the vast array of juicy content and overspend.

    I’m sticking with TSW on PS4 with its limited choice of DLC to buy. I can get everything I want from what’s available and still have some money left for food. Life is so simple when you have a clear plan. Eat, drive train, eat, drive train, eat, drive train, sleep, repeat.
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well it was $9,000 middle of last year.

    But why the debate? Why does it matter? You buy what you want, if you buy $9,000 worth then quite frankly you are a bit silly, unless you are extremely wealthy and that amount is like me finding a fiver down the back of the sofa! Then again if you get masses of enjoyment out of it for years to come it could be money well spent. There are threads on places like Reddit and there used to be several popping up on the very old steam forums talking as though all the DLC is compulsory, they are either being deliberately obtuse or they need to learn to find out facts.

    I have loads of DLC and I haven't spent anywhere near that amount in the ten years or so that RW/TS has been on Steam.
     
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  45. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    There are articles and a video about the cost of DLCs in train simulator (railworks) Train Simulator ranks as one of the most expensive games to play. Like if you buy a route in TS, you may want another and another and it's like draining your wallets. I think Train Simulator 2020 is way better than Train Sim World probably even TSW2 from what I've seen. I personally think though when you have a company that has so much content and the total for all is $10,000, I think it tells the customer a negative message. Yes they are a business and they have to meet profits, but I think they've just caused customers to be disatsfied with the company and I think there needs to be some changes. I'll give some props to dtg for making DLC in TSW cheaper than in TS2020 (even though tsw dlc is way overpriced) and I'm glad that they shut down the notion that if they were to make longer full line routes, the price for those DLCs wouldn't go up
     
  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well people should exercise more self control if they are spending that much on DLC!

    Maybe you would like them to withdraw most of the DLC so they look better? Then there will no doubt be complaints that there isn't much variety and why can't this route be made or can we have this loco for a particular route? The answer can then be "well we would make more DLC but we can't as it makes us look bad having so much choice and variety, oh and by the way we have just made 30 people redundant"!

    Maybe they should exercise a one in one out policy? Then we can all rejoice on the forums when someone is angrily moaning that a certain piece of DLC has been withdrawn.

    I imagine DTG's offices must have huge dents in the walls where staff members have been banging their heads against them!
     
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  47. michael hooley

    michael hooley Active Member

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    Am I missing something here?. no one is forcing me to buy anything or even play the sim. If you hate the game so much tallboy why don't you go play something else?. I assume that you are not purchasing TS World 2?. have you ever run a company and employed staff?.
     
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  48. AlexTheMole

    AlexTheMole Active Member

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    Another point is the fact much of the DLC on Steam is made by 3rd party companies, DTG only get a small percentage of the sale price due to them "hosting" it on Steam so the amount of DLC is hardly a reflection on DTG. Just look at how many more thousands of pounds worth of 3rd party DLC there is only available direct from devs! DTG has nothing to do with that so again it hardly reflects badly on them. As others have said, you buy what you want and what you can afford. DTG isn't forcing you to do it.

    Edit: In fact many of the really expensive routes on Steam are 3rd party, not DTG. Hence why they often aren't discounted as much in the Steam sales.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
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  49. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    One need only pop their head into the Suggestions forum to see that even if we made another 500 pieces of DLC we'd still be missing something people wanted. The point of having a huge selection available is so that you (yes, you) can get that thing you like. If you also choose to buy that thing you don't care about we won't complain about it but that's on you.
     
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  50. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    It's amazing that people are arguing about the total price of all of the DLCs for a game that has been constantly supported for 13 years.
     
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