Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Aug 13, 2018.
So in other words when TS 2019 comes out I will not have to buy the game again?
Thank very much for the process; I will test it very soon.
Found and done Thank you
Have a nice night.
Delighted about 64bit, delighted that TS and TSW will co-exist. This also means that DTG will be looking to introduce newer rolling stock to keep the game up-to-date.
I just hope a more user-friendly menu will follow. Overall well played DTG. Roll on more routes.
As with all previous TS20xx releases, the core update (including the 64-bit) is free and all the current Steam DLC works (and 3rd party should work) with it.
But the other routes/trains included in the TS2019 by default if you don't have them are not free then you will need to purchase TS2019.
As you've all had some time to ingest and re-read the announcement a few times, I wanted to drop in and tackle a few of the questions and comments:
As Luke mentioned in his response, Train Simulator 64-bit will be able to use all of the RAM your laptop has to offer but, as was mentioned in the article, your computer may be limited in other ways. Laptops and Notebooks aren't supported (they never have been) but this does not mean you won't be able to run Train Simulator 64-bit. It just means that our options will be limited when it comes to helping you overcome any unexpected problems you might have when you need to speak to our Customer Support team.
Fundamentally, if you own any version of Train Simulator, from 2012 to 2018, you'll receive an automatic update that will include the 64-bit version. Your computer will already have the 32-bit version and the 64-bit version will be added alongside it - each time you click play in Steam, it will ask whether you want to launch 32-bit or 64-bit Train Simulator (you may already be familiar with how this works with other games you own).
Just to answer a point from your thoughts:
In our view, TSW and TS are not competing with each other, they compliment one another and are part of the bigger railfan hobby that we're all a part of. We're sure there are many players who own both that have spent time this last year in both titles - and we're also sure this has not hindered their interest going to see real trains on the real railway/railroad.
There are players out there who might prefer one or the other for very specific reasons that are personal to them, and there are others who quite like both, etc. What we're getting at here is that we feel they both deserve to stand alongside each other for all the reasons you can think of or can't think of - we believe there's room for both.
Also, some interesting thoughts on us revealing more about the upgrade work - we'll certainly give this some careful thought and see what we can do.
As mentioned in the article, we'll share that with you soon.
As mentioned in the article, we'll share that with you soon.
The node limit for exporting is not a TS imposed limit that we're aware of.
Things may be a bit quicker but there are so many variables to consider: hard disk read/write speed, processor capability and core clock speed, amount of content installed, etc. loading times are what they are simply because of how the software works. However, this is on our minds too and we're looking into it further.
One of the many benefits of being an owner of any version of Train Simulator is that whenever we change something in the core software, everyone gets those improvements for free. So you won't need to buy the software again just to get access to 64-bit. Besides, it helps us get more feedback in the short term by making sure everyone that has an interest in it can play it.
Great to see you're already thinking about how you can use 64-bit to enhance what you already do. It's worth bearing in mind that the memory limits won't be bound by Train Simulator in 64-bit but will be bound by your own hardware. So, if you plan on sharing those scenarios with other players, you'll need to consider what impact all those trains will have if those players don't have the hardware to meet or exceed your own. It's worth thinking about this now so you can think about how best to let your followers know that the scenario was created with 64-bit in mind.
Every release see a collection of trains/routes that you would get if you were to buy TS20xx.
Will the trains/routes with TS2019 be configured to take advantage of 64-bit?
Well well this wasn't expected great news you gave to the community really happy just waiting patient for the DLC come with it and the future announcements for new content
In the new TS 2019 coming up, will it be possible to move around the F3/F4 HUD on another screen monitor ? As the core game will be updated, this move around feature will (may be) be possible ?
Very interesting question, augiewaz.
As far as configuration of trains/routes for 64-bit are concerned - there really isn't any configuring to do. The 64-bit conversion merely does the same as the 32-bit version does but 64-bit has access to more system resources than 32-bit does.
64-bit is not really a feature you can take advantage of in the same way as some other features work - all it does is allow you to run more detailed content (scenarios with lots more trains, routes with lots more scenery, etc) if you have the hardware to support it.
An interesting question, Gerard.
Making changes to how the HUD or User Interface works is not something that's part of the current 64-bit upgrade work. We do believe there are third-party applications, either in development or available, that do allow you to see key information such as speed, safety systems, etc on another screen. However, this kind of feature is not something we have on our plans right now but I'll make sure it goes on the "Community TS Feature Wish List" for future consideration.
Maybe for TS2019 Can we get something that is not the usual UK, USA, Germany? It is just getting kind of old the usual UK USA and Germany.
This is great news!
It's nice to see DTG appreciate the money people have spent on building their collections over the years. Whilst the graphics won't improve initially, it will allow people to create more detailled scenery and rollingstock, which will effectively improve the 'graphics' for future DLC.
Continuing to develop the Train Simulator game engine is a great move, and with the additional resources unlocked by creating a 64-bit version, perhaps in the future we could see upgrades to the lighting and physics. There's certainly a few years left in the old game yet!
Gentlemen of DTG, I am glad to know that finally you are going to solve the serious problems of Train Simulator, finally I will be able to create scenarios placing many trains without fear of having "Save Dump" or "Out of memory". I only ask you to work well so that problems do not continue and before releasing the update, make sure everything works perfectly. Thank you very much DTG.
The translation is done with Google, I hope you understand what I meant.
Great news, looking forward! Do you also plan to finish the multiplayer? I've read some time ago (maybe 2012) that you were working on multiplayer, but it was not finished. It would be very good to have multiplayer, including the dispatcher, e.g. Train Driver 2. Such a different experience to get together with friends and have some fun.
What excellent news DTG. This will a great improvement for those of us that create and run freeroams layout style. Up till now it's always been a bit of a balancing act between how many locos, coaches and wagons you can place on the line before you hit the memory limitations. No problem on smaller branchlines but a bit limiting on the longer routes....but yay to DTG for doing this.....just please, please, please, with this update, untether the camera view 'key 8' so we can access any loco, anywhere on the line and release the true freeroam experience.
I reported this over one year ago in ticket #VWC-846-70846. The limit is 256 nodes.
TrainSim-Steve thanks for your responses to some of my points. However you skipped one that now gives me a little concern. It’s about whether the well known third party DLC providers have been involved in this effort and most importantly have had the opportunity to test their DLC with 64 bit.
I did reach out to a contact at one of those third party providers and his response, somewhat vague (let’s say politic), didn’t give the impression that they had been fully involved. Is there any clarity from DTG on this? Is testing limited to DTG produced DLC or Steam Store items? Obviously I don’t expect DTG to test other providers DLC but normally (seeing as how closely you work with some of them, even ‘rebranding’ content in the Steam Store) the expectation would be that you’d give them the opportunity to test against the revised platform probably under an NDA. Or perhaps there’s knowledge at DTG that 3rd party DLC is similar enough to your own (even allowing for special scripting) that if yours works so will theirs’?
There have been some comments in other products that DTG haven’t encouraged third parties instead wanting to own the system end to end. That may or may not be true, but in the case of TS, as with products like FSX, the train has already left the station, literally and metaphorically. In my opinion third party vendors are critical to TS success and help DTG sales. For example I think it’s fair to say that the Class 303 wasn’t your finest moment. But I bought it because there’s a decent third party pack out there that significantly improves it.
So for clarification what’s the DTG stance for 3rd party providers and 64 bit? Have they been kept abreast of developments and provided with early releases for testing? If, as part of the feedback on issues with the new release problems are identified on say scenarios that include 3rd party DLC will DTG pass or work with the issue alongside the developer?
Don’t get me wrong, I really welcome the 64 bit release but to me my 3rd party DLC is as important to me in my enjoyment of TS as the DTG components.
Please don't change the HUD in any way (apart from maybe being able to move it around the screen).
I have a 3 monitor setup, and the HUD is perfect in the middle of the screen. I can't play TSW as all the onscreen info is over on the edges of the screen, which is no good for a multi monitor setup.
Good news about 64bit, but I hope not much else changes.
That will be welcome but some people will be disappointed that this doesn't suddenly introduce multi-player, Oculus Rift support and puppies for everyone.
Come to think of it Oculus Rift support was in the works, to the point where I saw it demonstrated in Shildon in 2015, before being dropped. I wondered if that was something to do with memory overheads so perhaps it's on the cards now.
Very interesting for the fact that I will be able to use more memory than what could be originally done on a 32 Bit Core program.
But here's the important question, will it end the problem of errors such as the "TempDump v60.1b", "Error Out Of Memory", "DBGHELP", etc?
I hope to see this happen, hopefully within the next coming months (as it usually releases before the new year).
There is a route and train's coming from New Zealand. I think the train's are pretty much finished. The route looks like it isn't too far away from being finished either
Answering some more of the questions
Multiplayer is a planned feature for Train Sim World, and was mentioned in our latest Train Sim World Studio Update here. Please can we remain on topic for this discussion relating to Train Simulator. If you wish to discuss anything relating to Train Sim World, there's dedicated forums for that here. Many thanks
I didn't answer your assumption because it wasn't really a question - but you are correct in your assumption, we have been working with select developers. However, as has been mentioned in the article and here in this thread - nothing has changed with regard to how the software works with content.
I do totally understand your concerns though and, as is always the case, we're open to hearing from any developer out there who may be having problems with Train Simulator 64-bit, via our usual Support channels, regardless of whether they're working directly with us or not.
As mentioned above, multiplayer is a planned feature for Train Sim World, and was mentioned in our latest Train Sim World Studio Update here. Please can we remain on topic for this discussion relating to Train Simulator. If you wish to discuss anything relating to Train Sim World, there's dedicated forums for that here.
As for Rift support, it's true we toyed with this ahead of the official launch of VR headsets. However, it was more of a proof of concept at the time and there are no current plans to bring it to Train Simulator - though it is on the aforementioned Community TS Feature Wish List.
Firstly, TempDumps are created for a multitude of reasons - quite often they're created because the software doesn't know how to or is unable to read key files or data that it is expecting (for example whilst trying to load an asset that is missing a critical blueprint or whilst reading a corrupted file). They are a necessary and very important component of the error catching mechanism and these messages simply won't go away just because of the 64-bit conversion.
The TempDumps that are created because the software has run out of addressable memory locations will certainly go away if you have enough available system memory to accommodate the loads that Train Simulator needs. This will also include all of the other types of errors that are thrown which are all essentially related to the same thing - the software has run out of addressable memory locations. If you don't have the available memory, then you'll continue to see the messages. Note the use of the term "available" - which means once every other piece of software that is currently running on your computer has used their bit of memory (or whatever they've reserved - which can sometimes appear to be still available), whatever is left over is called available.
Where did you got this info from please?
Well, I think that I can probably answer that for you on behalve of DTG - No, these routes probably won't be, because in doing so, they would alienate all those customers who will stay with 32 bit for some reason. And DTG probably don't have any idea yet, what the uptake of the 64 bit version will be like initially, so for now they'll have to play it safe I guess, especially with routes bundled with a major headliner release.
tnleeuw I don’t disagree with your post but it did raise an interesting thought other than having non 64 bit hardware (likely a small and diminishing part of the playing population) what would be the reason NOT to go 64 bit? I’d have thought uptake would be good and even to add some new customers ~ even if that might in part be to some confusion on new players parts about what this ‘new era’ brought (that is 64 bit in this case means removing a significant limitation on the game rather than being a significantly different game).
Obviously if it isn’t executed well (and as a retired project manager TrainSim-Steve’s comment that ‘nothing has changed with regard to how the software works with the content’ gives me a facial tic) people won’t move but DTG seem confident.
If that’s the case, that it all works fine and the majority of users migrate then I think that over time the 32 bit option could become the ‘classic’ or legacy system with increasing released content being too rich or unsuitable in memory terms. What is interesting is what 64 bit will allow beyond the advantages in scenario running and existing problematic spots on route/loco/AI combinations. How does 64 bit benefit the developer? More detailed rolling stock, denser routes, increased AI?
In terms of alienating existing customers again I understand the point. As an example my guess is that if you had hardware that only met the baseline recommendations for TS you probably aren’t going to be having a lot of fun with even some of the newer routes like Waterloo to Portsmouth.
Now if some forum members with older systems think I’m suggesting that DTG just ignore them and focus on people with more powerful rigs that’s not my point. But generally software developers are always looking to future hardware and OS developments to give them more freedom. In the end we all get ‘left behind’.
DTG with 64 bit support dose this open more improvements down the road for this game or is it all on core updates that it at it max. like draw distances for 3d clouds.
Great news, I will finally be able to use my 20Gb of memory ram and continue with my projects.
Es una noticia magnifica noticia, si este simulador sigue vivo es gracias a que tiene editor y con 64 bits funcionara de maravilla......
There are certainly things I'd personally like to see improved or re-engineered to further extend Train Simulator's capabilities and 64-bit will certainly be of benefit to enabling these things. So yes, 64-bit may open up things that we weren't able to do before.
Which features you would most like to see enhanced or improved in Train Simulator. Are there things that Train Simulator currently doesn't do that you'd like to see?
See the previous page for my suggestion about the menu.
Personally I liked the 2015 menu, the gray with the texture, but as it is also a flash menu, it should be replaced with another solution before 2020 when the Adobe Flash is discontinued and blocked on newer installations of Windows.
As well as the profile menu list all items from Steam (maybe with Steam logo in the bar under the image) and 3rd party items.
It has been indexed by the game as it displays in other menu's.
Also in that menu (and others) not all DLC is correctly tagged, sometimes an Electric train (no dual-mode) is shown in diesel and others won't show when filtered at all. Seems that the tags are not always correct.
For the editor (in scenario and route) the flyout options have sometimes a large amount of text, wider that it can show, maybe make that menu dynamic to the size.
Also you now must place it before you can look at it, maybe it is possible to show a thumbnail of the item when you hover over it?
TrainSim-Steve if the question is ‘what changes would you like now that 64 bit improves (enormously) memory availability’ I don’t find it easy to answer. My problem is that yes, you have much more space to store content in a session but what’s the penalty of processing that output? So for example routes could be much richer in content, or rolling stock more detailed but at some point you have to push that through the pipe of the CPU. Take a simple example passengers on the platform. Now you could have more, or more variation, but there’s a frame rate penalty for that.
One thing that I do think would improve immersion is more changeable weather. Rather than having either clear or cloudy having some change in the weather as you progressed along the route would be an improvement, even current downloadable weather?
Being a fairly new user I did at first find the editor less than friendly. Experience (and errors) are a great teacher but I do wonder if there’s a way to improve editor tools. Something as simple as, when you choose a point to move to, not being 50 feet underground would be nice. I understand changing the editor may not be possible, but does 64 bit allow an extensive overlay over the editor to improve its useability?
But as I say it’s my lack of understanding about the FPS trade off that holds me back. For example are portals (convenient dustbins for AI you need out of memory) now far less useful? Or is there still a processor overhead in retaining the AI that mean portals are still useful?
Portals are necessary to let the AI 'disappear', for example using AI in front of you to keep a signal at red or clearing it to yellow and green, it won't impact CPU or Memory at all, better to have more portals then to few so you can play with the AI in scenario's.
When sending an AI into a portal won't clear memory since it is still loaded.
The game itself could use a better memory management, during livestreams and recordings I always look at the memory for a potential crash.
A freshly started Train Simulator would use about 700mb of memory, just in the memory.
After doing a single scenario and returning to the menu, the memory is a small bit cleared but some is still loaded in the memory as the memory has about 1.3/1.4 left, so double the amount.
For doing the next scenario a restart of the game is necessary, maybe DTG can take a look at clearing the memory for efficiently after a scenario.
Some interesting thoughts in there, Rob.
On the dynamic weather feature, this is already supported in Train Simulator (Weather Patterns) and has been used to good effect in numerous scenarios. Currently it can only be used in scenarios and cannot be used in Quick Drive due to the way in which it works. Or are you thinking more "non-defined" dynamic weather - i.e. the software makes the call on what weather to use rather than it being defined in a blueprint?
Interesting thought on the editor tools, will certainly add that into the list.
On the frame rate trade off - there's always a penalty for rendering more polygons (depending on your GPU hardware). However, there are some things that are less taxing than others (i.e. rendering a 3D object versus rendering shadow casting projectors) simply due to the inherent processing costs. There are ways around many of these things to offset the cost. For example with 3D objects you use LoDs and for projectors you use non-shadow casting projectors.
On the subject of Portals, Rob has provided a fairly solid answer to this - portals have always been more about clearing the route of active trains so to aid the dispatcher in routing.
DTG one thing if possible and i donno since doing this might break something few people have issues with sliver lining 3d cloud system and how it i think lags and stuff. over the years sun dog software has made big improvement to softwhere to make it run alot better.
DTG I would love to see update to Sun dog software Sliverlining 3d cloud version 5. https://sundog-soft.com/2017/08/sundog-delivers-immersive-storm-clouds-silverlining-5/ i think they made big improvements to soft where that could benefit future Train simulator. but i donno if this idea cause butterfly effect to the game.
No idea why my comment about managing expectations was interpreted as a being about TSW.
JJTimothy same for me. I’m not sure why my comments about FPS were interpreted as needing help in how to manage FPS Impacts. My comments were around potential trade offs. In other words there’s no free lunch. You may be able to load more content but at some point it has to be processed.
Presumably 64 bit provides something other than stability and the removal of limitations on Scenario size. Perhaps it might be helpful for TrainSim-Steve to suggest what the big picture thinking is at DTG (the kinds of area that might see some benefit) so that people could channel their thoughts in that direction.
TrainSim-Steve on the weather part of my thought was the ability to load real time weather. On the dynamic weather that’s useful although I’ve been looking around trying to find anything about it. Perhaps that raises another issue that DTG need to fix, the thin documentation that exists around the product. When I started to work on scenarios people pointed me in the direction of the online videos people have produced to go over concepts. Those were helpful but it isn’t the same as having up to date and deeper documentation. What comes with the game gets you started but getting full use of the product is a little like searching for clues not all of which are consistent.
I understand that for those who’ve been active with the sim for a long time that acquired knowledge and expertise is a badge of pride but for anyone new (I have around 300 hours) it can be pretty frustrating and a barrier to people getting more involved. I’m not asking to be handed the knowledge on a plate, but watching an hour long video in the hope that it might cover the question that you have (or should have) is one solution but it shouldn’t be the only one.
On further consideration I think we can both attribute this to someone who's probably busy but has been asked to provide feedback making the sort of mistake anyone can when skim-reading something- in my case at least perhaps because there was indeed a question about multi-player up thread and conflating that with my comment. Still no mention of TSW though.
I think you got the answer you did because the question you asked doesn't really have a simple answer. For running existing scenarios that you can already complete without a crash on existing routes using existing content, there likely won't be any difference at all because those scenario/route/content combinations already aren't hitting the roughly 4gb memory limitation. There shouldn't really be much of a difference in FPS as changing from 32-bit to 64-bit doesn't really change the way the sim works. As for trade offs in the future, obviously increasing the amount of static/AI trains in a scenario or having new trains and routes with more detail will impact FPS. Modifying existing scenarios to increase the variety of content in a scenario without increasing the total amount of AI or static trains in the scenario may or may not impact performance, depending on the end user's system (systems with large amounts of video memory might not see any difference, those with smaller amounts of video memory probably will). Basically, anything existing right now that works fine likely won't change at all in a 64-bit environment. The impact of any future content is going to depend on the individual user's system capabilities.
Moving from 32-bit to 64-bit really IS primarily about allowing the program to access all the available memory in a user's computer, and unless they specifically are fixing some glitches along the way, most stability improvements are going to come from situations where a scenario is generally already "riding the edge" of the current memory limit. Removing those memory limits may allow added improvements or changes to the core program down the road, but from what I've read from DTG's announcement and replies, that would be for later updates down the road, not this upcoming one.
Emil Benz agreed. What I was trying to do was figure out the answer to the question of what changes would be worthwhile with the advent of 64 bit. We all agree it should improve stability and potentially allow fuller scenarios. But what else? What might those improvements in the core program be in the future that follow from this?
Don’t get me wrong 64 bit is a huge step, and a worthwhile one, but I’m not sure what can be leveraged from it beyond what I’ve stated. Somewhere back there in the thread I suggested that with the 64 bit memory to get further value from it processor speed was key - because FPS now becomes the new primary limiter.
Some interesting thoughts in here guys, keep it coming!
Interesting thought raptorengineer, will certainly get that onto the feature wish list.
The interest really is about all the things we've not already thought about - areas you feel need attention. To give you an example of our thinking, virtually all that has been suggested thus far by the community are things we hadn't considered and already it has been insightful.
I've added the note on the real-time weather to the aforementioned feature wish list - this is something I personally have an interest in.
On the subject of documentation for developers - it appears you've missed the Developers link at the top of Dovetail Live which takes you to the Developer Documentation for Train Simulator. This documentation is evolving and will continue to grow with new information being added from the wealth of knowledge out there, and we're open to feedback on it - if you've been through to Customer Support recently, you'll see there's a dedicated section for providing feedback on the documentation.
Hope this helps.
Sorry JJTimothy, trying to do numerous things at once and completely missed the point - I've never been particularly great at multitasking!
Absolutely no need to apologise since I was not in any way offended so much as mildly bemused which, to save anyone who knows me the bother of chipping in, is my usual state of mind anyway.
I suspected as much and indeed said so further down the thread.
Trainsim Steve.....with the 64 bit upgrade how about untethering the camera 'key 8' whilst freeroaming, so you can select any loco, anywhere on your network, really let us run layout style. It really is time to release freeroam from this unnecessary limitation......also why doesn't DTG promote freeroam more. It's clear the majority of players, really don't know how powerful TS is, because they just play pre-set scenarios, which is a shame because I think they're missing out.
hey DTG i donno if you have time but can you update or change the default year from 2010 to 2019. i know i can do that myself when i make new route or scenario. but for default year i think it needs a change for another 10 years lol.
I've opened a thread in TS2018 (didn't see this thready initially), so I'll ask the question here too as you are around here.
One thing I'd like to have in TS2019 is motion blur, this adds real sense of speed and a feature I love in TSW - I'm not sure if this is possible in DX9 though? If possible, what are the chances of inclusion? If not possible, what are the chances that TS2xxxx will be upgraded to DX11, 12 etc. in the future?
Go to www.reshade.me and if you use that you can add motion blur to Train Sim.
I gave it a go, had a few side-effects, some flickering images and sometimes keyboard unresponsive - I tweaked the settings a few times but the blur seemed a bit stuttery, even though I'm getting FPS 60+
Might try altering the values a couple more times but I'm hoping DTG can have the MB setting built in on future release(s).
It seems to maybe depend on your graphics card, I’ve got an 8GB RX580 and it looks good on mine. I turn down the in game AA to just FXAA and it works really well at 3200x1800.
The keyboard thing is easily solved, if you’ve dipped into the reshape menu, once you exit sometimes you then need to press the shift key on its own and it’ll work fine again.
ps I assume you’re using the fakemotionblur fx? That’s the one I use although there are a couple of options.
Yeah, using the fakemotionblur fx, my card is the GTX1080ti. I will continue to experiment a little, what values do you have
mbRecall and mbSoftness?
I’m away from my computer for a couple of days so I can’t say for sure, but it’s pretty much the setting it comes with.
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