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Ts20: Badger Brush

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Mar 19, 2020.

  1. TrainSim-James

    TrainSim-James Staff Member

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    [​IMG]

    The BR Class 89 was a prototype electric locomotive that was set to transform the East Coast Main Line, and while reality went in a different direction, one cannot deny the unique and powerful design that was the “Badger”, and this one-of-a-kind loco has arrived in Train Simulator!

    READ MORE
     
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  2. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Awesome.

    I think that if the ECML London to Peterborough route was on sale on Steam today, then I'd be buying that route today, along with the Class 89, just for the Class 89...

    I will be back... with some cash... ;-)
     
  3. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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  4. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes - I saw that. And I considered it for about 0.00000327 seconds. And unfortunately the computer said "No".

    And then it said: "You are not giving your credit card information to a company that cannot be bothered to test the DB BR 155 through tunnels on RSN on TSW on PS4. That would be VERY silly"

    I tried to reason with it, craftily using logic about the sheer heritage value of the 89.... but then it said:

    "You do realise that DTG has difficulty counting above the number four - which is the number it considers to be countless - so no - your details are not going to be sent to DTG, for them to process cash out of your account....."

    And then I really begged, , with a passionate plea.... ..saying... "But it's the Class 89.... the 89 for Google's sake...! That's a genius bit of DLC content, and it's right up my street, I really want it, I want it.... Me and the 89 go back a long way... and maybe one day someone will sell me a Swallow livery for it for under £100...."

    .... but the computer said: "Have you heard of Mastery.....?"

    And I just thought.... well...... fair enough.... Good point.


    So there's literally nothing that I can do about it. It will have to wait until it comes back on sale on Steam.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
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  5. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Without all the gobbledegook

    I was pointing out the the ECML route which the Class 89 has the scenarios for is on Sale.
    You can buy it from DTG at £8.99 or the SAME ROUTE from Steam for £14.99

    Vulcan Productions are making reskins for the Class 89 in Swallow and GNER Liveries which I suspect will be free.
    https://www.facebook.com/VulcanProductions/
    So you could save just over £80 of your £100 pounds by getting the loco and the free reskin in a few days time
    And also you would have enough change from £20 to also get the ECML L-P route to run the 89.

    Peter
     
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  6. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes - sorry - my humour can sometimes be quite testing...

    Yes - I saw that the March sale had moved over to DTG. But there is no way that I will give DTG my credit card number - because dealing with numbers isn't quite one of DTG's forté's. I'd rather pay them more money, and do it through Steam... even though I don't really like Steam that much.... LOL... it's a lesser of two evils....

    I nearly bit - and purchased the pair today (89 and ECML L-P) from Steam...... but the (very few) reviews of the 89 are very poor - apparently it is a rebodied 86.... with dire sounds... So the 89 has been deprioritised. Thanks for the Swallow livery tip though - I must drop by the Vulcan website at some point (I don't do Faecebook....).

    But mostly - thank you for all of the help you have given me over the last few weeks - and that's probably despite seeing me making posts here and there that might appear slightly.... um.... eccentric.... ;-)
     
  7. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I don't give Steam my Credit Card number either
    I might be buying from DTG, Steam, Virtual Railroads, Armstrong Powerhouse or many others all transactions are via PayPal.

    Presumably you have never seen a Class 86 as the statement about the Class 89 being re bodied from it is rubbish.
    The Cab is different - the driving controls are different - the workings of the loco are different.
    The loco uses the SOUNDS from the Class 86 and nothing else

    I apologies for suggesting a way for saving you some money

    Peter
     
  8. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah - you are right - I just need to sort out a PayPal account.... that is a sensible way forward.

    The Class 89's external 3D model is...quite frankly... really very nice indeed. The last time I saw the Avocet..... it was broken at the head of a London bound train at Peterborough.. and it looked exactly like the TS2020 model (except it had a nameplate on it). And it's a Co-Co - so it's not in that sense rebodied... but I got the impression from YouTube that the simulation (primarily the sound) was from the 86.... just as you have confirmed. Maybe sounds are not important to everyone...

    Anyway - I will wait for the 89 to either be completed, or for it to go on sale, so that I can assess just how much it will cost to buy all of the various parts that you need to have a reasonably simulated loco...., when those parts become available..... I am not complaining here - I know that this is partly how TS2020 works. I am actually surprised you can't buy sandwiches at King's Cross, to give to the AI trainspotters on Platform 4.
     
  9. Matthew Wilson

    Matthew Wilson Member

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    As mentioned previously, there is a pack of reskins I've made along with a couple of other people to bring a few updates and 4 operational livery variations. These are available from https://www.vulcanproductions.co.uk/

    These also include a reskin of the AP MK1 BG to be a Mk1 NHA as operated on early services to Leeds etc.
     

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  10. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    The Swallow livery is utterly beautiful. Well done to the artist on that one. But before I could acquire such a fabulous thing - I think I would need to wait for the Class 89 to be completed - preferably by DTG... with some sounds - like - any sort of variation in sound, as you apply power, would be a nice touch.

    Best things come to those that wait! And I am happy to wait.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  11. Matthew Wilson

    Matthew Wilson Member

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    There is a soundpatch available from Backdated Trainsim (just Google for the address) and as it replaces the default files (which can be restored at any point) it works with all of the above reskins.

    In terms of the livery artist, Ben Yates from the VP team worked on the skins and I made all of the custom detail items, because putting them on the skin just wouldn't have had such a precise level of detail as they do now - especially the Avocet name

    Many thanks for your kind words
     
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  12. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    And the VP team have does an excellent job in bringing what was an average model to one that stands out.
    The soundpatch from Backdated Trainsim is the icing on VPs Cake - so to speak

    Peter
     
  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Um - I am obviously an Absolute Beginner in all this (also one of David Bowie's finest duets...).... but there are a few things that I don't understand..... I think it is best summaried by a single question:

    Why didn't DTG just release the Class 89 as a completed model that stands out, instead of just as an average model, without sounds, etc...........?

    Now... context is important here. Because the Class 89 was released fairly recently, and then, within about 48 hours.... you could obtain:

    - a sound package for the loco, that actually includes sounds;
    - liveries for the loco that look fabulous, have some decent resolution, and include the nameplate; and,
    - a completely remodelled/improved internal cab layout (so I have heard).

    Why couldn't DTG just wait...say...two days... and then issue the Class 89, as a completed loco.....?

    I am not talking about mods that have been developed some time after the initial release, to slightly enhance the product, or individually customise it, with say, fluffy dice in the cab..... These packs seem to me to all be utterly critically important to the product upon release.

    Am I missing something here....? And.... is this normal.....?
     
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  14. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    This has been discussed before. Why don't DTG include all the bells and whistles?

    Best to compare DTG with Tesco and in this case, ArmstrongPowerhouse as Waitrose.
    DTG make good workable models at a price they think the customer is prepared to pay for it to sell in reasonable numbers. If they added the enhancements; sound, graphic details, reskins etc they would need to charge more. We all know that pricing is a sensitive issue.

    For those who want higher fidelity, the likes of AP and SteamSoundsSupreme make enhancement packages which IMO improve the base model 100%.
    As for the freeware reskinners, we can only thank them for their effort.
     
  15. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah - so... I think my point is that the "higher fidelity" version seems to be made available in parts....... almost immediately upon release.... so presumably there's very little "extra" effort impacting on price point..... It would (presumably) not have been much more effort (if any) to include a more reasonable sound package (say, from an existing library) and/or interior textures immediately upon release. And if the liveries are free anyway - then why not just drop those in, with the initial pack...., with a credit to the freeware maker....?

    It's almost as if DTG produced a fabulous 3D model (and it is nice), and then taken extra steps to drop the quality down a bit.... like they've spent more time on it.... to make sure that the product at launch has less quality than it could have had... on purpose.... I know this seems mad, but that is how it looks to a newbie, like meself. It's not a very good look..... for customer confidence.

    If you take this process any further, then DTG will start to issue rolling stock that looks like it was designed for Minecraft....(say - a yellow cube).... and then a third party could "add" a more realistic 3D model on the same day, followed by a livery, some sounds, some files to provide compatibility with other rolling stock, and some scripted animated pantographs.... etc. To make a working finsihed product.

    I don't want to complain, because I think that by converting to TS2020.... that I have semi-consciously signed up for this malarkey.... But there is something that I am failing to understand here... maybe it is an IP issue or something. Anyways - I think I am going to wait for this loco to settle down into a completed version, before I buy it - despite its dashing good looks....! ;-)

    Maybe it's like with all other religions - and that some element of blind faith is required, combined with a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance, so that the illusion can continue to be enjoyed while your wallet is emptied by some charlatan - pretty as that Class 89 charlatan might be.... And mebbe... just mebbe... it aint a good idea to ask too many questions.... in case I get a visit from the lads in the choir... knocking on my door swinging their bicycle chains and menacingly lighting up their blow-torches.... if you know what I mean.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  16. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the world of TS2020.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
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  17. NEC Railfan

    NEC Railfan Active Member

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    The situation is exactly the same with American DLC. It always has at least something unfaithful, whether it be simulation physics, or audio. And it's up to freeware modders to fix it all up. Also like AP, Searchlight Simulations does enhancement packs for many locomotives to improve the quality even more. Most of my engines don't even run vanilla anymore, the only ones that are still vanilla are the UK locos I own.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  18. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    *listens carefully for the hiss of blow-torches....*

    Okies - I fink I am now gonna "shut ma mouff", and not "rock da boat" on this issue... cos...well... anyways... I reckon that I can be a bit immune to the stuff that I blagged about - cos I currently have so much stuff to test out in the "un-modded" form. For now.

    But I would say this - if the loco was complete, then I would be buying it right now, at full price, along with two or three routes for it, at full price. And maybe others have done this.... but I personally will now be waiting until the whole lot is discounted by at least 75%. Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choices, is what I say.... Also - although I am often a tinkering type - I think that right now - I just want a quick bit of "plug'n'play"...., so to speak..... if you catch my drift.... ;-D

    Regarding TSW development - I strongly suspect.... having looked at the fundamental financial data for railsimulator.com as filed wiv the geezers at "Co House".... that it is now TSW and the fishing equivalent, launched cross-platform.... that is now subsidising TS2020..... And...in my case... TSW has been the "gateway drug" into the harder stuff.... . so... it's all TSW's fault... that I have been procrastinating over a half built Class 89.... even after having bought what seems like the entire Southern region for TS2020 (although scarily... I actually haven't even got half way there...)...., when actually...all I probably needed was The South London Network (which cost about five quid)...... but...I am now drawing a line in the sand... (or on the pavement/platform).... right here. Right.... right here.... >.< And the 89 will have to wait.

    ... but cor - the 89 does look nice... beautiful in that free Swallow garb.... proudly presenting a right nice pair of quarter-ground buffers to the world, with that lovely fresh out of the paintshop look..... But...

    .......... I resisted.
     
  19. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, TSW outselling TS? :o
     
  20. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Aaaah - it's caveat time.... So.... I only suspect that TSW is outselling TS.... And something that I am fairly sure about (but still based on rumour) is that TSW on eueeuugghhh.... console.... is (or was...) outstripping sales of TSW on PC, by a very wide margin.

    So all of the above looks pretty speculative... (cos it is).... But.... what you can reasonably reliably infer... if you go through Railsimulator.com's reported financial statements for the last few years, including the narrative... is that DTG were making quite a nasty set of losses until about April 2019, when they suddenly turned a profit. And the previous 12-18 months saw the roll-out of TSW and FSW (simulated fishies....).....cross-platform... to a massive new customer base (including me, by the way.....).

    So yeah - TSW has been subsidising TS, by digging DTG out of a nasty hole. A fab tactical move, you might think...!

    But.... unfortunatamento.... DTG does not have a strategy to retain customers on eeeuggghhhh..... console.... because they have no idea how to make a title for eeeeuuuggghhh .....console...., and they have no idea how to retain such money-givers. So..... it's likely that the donations from the eeeuuuggghhh... console players...will dry up. Cos DTG have no intention whatsoever to make the TSW UI work, or fix the bugs that appear on ....eeeuggghhh...console.., or to explain how to drive a train in a manual, or provide any manual at all from the UI.... or.... structure the game to help players to develop skills and get them to buy into it. The retention rates on eeeuggghh...console.... are phenomenally poor.

    Even when TSW recently became part of the XBox subscription package... DTG failed to prepare for it... and the influx of even more potential customers... was basically told to "Faecebook Off to where they came from".

    So.... unless DTG have some miracle strategy in relation to PS5 and the new XBox.... then I reckon that from April 2021... that DTG will find itself back into it's Flight Simulator-esque tail spin... and will re-acquaint itself with terra firma... at a very high..... and quite painful..... speed.

    I have been doing all that I can to help these guys out... and get them to WAKE THE FAECEBOOK UP - but they are seemingly quite cosily dreaming away in their pleasant trainy dreamlandy sleep.

    They have been drinking too much Horlicks.

    And... it really doesn't help... to launch an uncompleted Class 89 loco on TS2020... when there are Class 89 fans*** out there that have recently converted to TS2020.... that just want to buy something that works.. out of the box.

    --------------------------
    ***NB: Actually - it's probably just me... so that should say "there is a Class 89 fan out there...."
     
  21. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    It's good to have a Business and Economics correspondent on board. :)
    But I wonder if the almost continuous sales by Steam, DTG and the Humble Bundle has given a spike in TSW & TSxx sales. Looking at the number of newbies on the Steam & DTG forums AND the numbers of those who are confused between the TSW & TSxx forums, it seems there are many newcomers to train simming.

    Don't get me wrong, I hope TSW is a success but it doesn't appeal to me. It lacks the flexibility, (the Editor), the variety and amount of DLC, (payware & freeware), of TS. Reasons perhaps for which you, synthetic.angel have taken up TS.
    DTG know what they can get away with in how much they they include or not in their DLC. Why bother with reskins when freeware reskinners will make them. Why bother with professional sounds when a 3rd party dev will make them

    I still believe that TS is DTG's golden goose, their cash cow and that if they put all their eggs in one basket ie, TSW, then the chickens would come home to roost.
    Yours,
    Old Mac Donald
     
  22. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yep - I think that you are right - there's no point in going 100% for TSW - or, at least, that would be a risk. And the TS back catalogue will always drip feed some income - so DTG will probably live on... If TSW fails.... then DTG could run a skeleton crew, and hope that they don't get attacked by some more well-fed and more battle-hardened pirate ships... assuming they don't get sunk by debt dragging down the gunwales.

    So - I think that they now have to do both TSW and TS and I would like DTG to do both effectively. I think that TSW has thus far given DTG a bit of a reprieve - and a chance for survival. More than survival... there was a chance for some serious growth. But I think they "flashed it in a pan" - and let their opportunity float by....to squeeze out a slightly disgustingly partially mixed floater metaphor... You started it - with your egg-laying visualisations.... Oh dear... sorry... I am in a very silly mood.... ;-)

    The thing that confuses me about TSW is why they launched it with a broken UI, and then did some work on it to make it more broken. The UI in TS actually seems to mostly work - although it is a bit too grabby for my personal tastes when it comes to Win 10 resources...... If DTG took the best parts of TSW and the best parts of TS, and cross-fertilised the pair - then they would have two very nice rosey-looking titles.... But.... they seem to want to emphasise the worst parts, and build a nasty tangle of barbed roots and thorns, for newbies to slice themsleves on, and then get gunned-down on the beaches of learning how to train sim..

    But it is their business.... and they can do what they like... and maybe they are also sado-masochists at the weekend, as well as during the week - who knows.....? Nice trains though.... in the meantime - whether they have working sounds or not.... I am not ungrateful to DTG.... I am just... very very grateful for their hard work... and perhaps... greedy for more.... ;-)

    NB: I will eventually bite, and get the Class 89, and the ECML routes..... but.... they'll have to wait.... either for a sale... or for the VIX to calm itself down a bit.... which will probably be 2022 at the earliest....
     
  23. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know if DTG has sorted out the issue with the Class 89 - lack of variable sound from the traction motors....?

    I am thinking of buying the Class 89 in the Steam Sale, but there is no point if nobody has bothered to fix it.
     
  24. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think they have. It's quite unfortunate but even if they announce that they're updating it, that could unfold like the TGV Reseau fiasco. If the DTG team doesn't get around to fixing it there are mods created by third party users that improve the sounds, but you'll need the AP Class 91 Enhancement Pack if I'm not mistaken.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  25. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Okay, thanks. I looked in the Steam reviews, and coudn't find any evidence that the loco had been completed.

    Oh well, I will consider buying it when they can be bothered to complete the locomotive. It's a shame, because it looks nice.
     
  26. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    That will be the day after never then.
    Once DTG release something they very rarely fix it - especially if it's just a sound problem
    But Vulcan Productions did a good job in improving it
    https://www.vulcanproductions.co.uk/electric.html
     
  27. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Well, I could wait until then - that is indeed an option, and I am quite patient. Or there is another possibility. I could buy the Class 89 now, but pay for it with some broken and/or incomplete money, say a third of a ten pound note, or some smashed up and unrecognisably useless coins that used to be pesetas. I will have a look in my drawers and see what I can find.

    I hope that one day DTG will become like a fine chocolatier.... and stop being like a dodgy back-street market stall selling rejected mis-shapen bits - although perhaps virtual trains all taste the same after you start chewing them...?
     
  28. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    DTG have to fit into a niche between price and a wide range of their customer's pc specs.

    Price, as we all know is a sensitive issue that I'm sure DTG are well aware of and they cut their cloth accordingly. Adding more bells and whistles would put up the price and could cause problems for those with lower spec pcs.

    So DTG have to get a balance here, perhaps their mantra is the Tesco approach of, 'stack it high and sell it cheap'. Those who want high end content can get it from 3rd party devs if they have wallets and pcs that can sustain it.

    Think of it like this. If you want a basic Ford you get it for a basic price. If you want aircon, alloys etc you're going to pay more.

    Simple equation that works for DTG, their customers and 3rd party devs.
     
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  29. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Or... it's a simple equation that works for 3rd party devs. Not completing basic elements of a product does not work for the customer.

    And in this case it doesn't work for DTG, because they will have to wait to get any of my (working) money. Or they could finish off the Class 89, and get some functioning cash immediately afterwards.
     
  30. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure the DTG Sales & Marketing and bean counting departments have worked out an acceptable price point. In other words, what the customer is prepared pay for the quality of the product. The fact that DTG are in business means that it is working for DTG.

    As for not working for the customer. Well the customer has that choice, if it's not considered good value then they simply don't buy it. DTG take that risk.

    3rd party devs, good for them pushing the boundries and upping the anti for those who can afford it and have pcs that can run it.
     
  31. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Yes, of course. And in my case the risk has been realised. The price point is well above what is acceptable for an incomplete product, with the Class 89, even with it currently on sale. I will keep an eye out for it over the next few years, and if it gets completed, or comes down in price (by at least 70%), then I might buy it. Until then, the cash will remain in my treasury, and not DTG's.

    I am waiting for DTG to do something, so that I can give them my cash.

    I am fairly sure that if the Class 89 were to be completed, and had a couple of additional sound files inserted... that it would make absolutely no difference to the performance on any PC capable of running TS1 (which is, frankly, a very low spec PC).
     
  32. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    You've made your point that you're not satisfied enough for it to be considered good value. Maybe many others feel the same, or not. Only DTG will know if it has turned a profit. Also, others might want different features than you; a foot warmer switch that works, the correct cab lightbulb. I jest but where does it stop?

    Additional sound files, I understand the 89 is preserved. Is it in running order to record authentic sounds? If so the admin, logistics and hence expense of getting professional quality sound recording might have to be factored into the point of sale price. Would that be acceptable? If it's not in working order then it simply cannot be done.
    Believe me, I know where you're coming from, everything can be improved. But at what cost?
     
  33. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I expect critical elements for immersion to be present. That would include traction motor sounds that vary with power applied, and external sounds that vary with speed. You can turn your question on its head.... what is the bare minimum.... how much content can be stripped out....? Why bother with a pantograph....? Or windows.... Surely someone else can supply a pantograph...?

    If a sound is used that is not quite authentic, then that would be better than nothing - and surely DTG have a massive library of sounds... and basic sound editing tools...? It only needed another two or three hours of work done... to complete the locomotive.... Somebody managed to get an enhancement on the market within hours of the release..... so it could have been released as a complete product in the first place.

    Of course, selling a complete product would be bad for anyone wishing to make money from patching-up woefully incomplete products, like the Class 89.

    If the ethos at DTG, with the Class 89, is "Why should we bother to finish the job...?" Then my ethos is going to be "Why should I bother to give them any of my cash?"

    For now - the Class 89 is a must not buy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
  34. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know the 89 is not operational so they cannot record sounds from it. I understand the class 90 would be the closest however they have never produced a class 90, only published an AP one so they probably do not have the sounds in the library. They probably decided the class 86 was the closest they had.

    I think DTG produce DLC to a budget which will make them the most profit, which is understandable, so I purchase the base model then purchase enhancements from the likes of AP or SSS or download free enhancements. AP for example can take more time to produce their sound packs and get into the detail as they are a smaller operation and will have smaller overheads. I am quite happy with this situation to be honest. I don't have the class 89 yet but it is somewhere on my will get list.
     
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  35. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Well the June sale has ended on Steam, and the Class 89 is no longer available at 10% "discount". But it has just been released into the "July" sale with 20% off the "release price"...... just a few days later.....!

    Does anyone know if DTG has sorted out the issue with the Class 89 in the intervening days/weeks - lack of variable sound from the traction motors....? Have they completed the DLC yet? Did it get updated.....? I am thinking of buying the Class 89 right now in this new July Steam Sale at 20% off, but there is no point if nobody has bothered to fix it.

    I am still happy to wait for the Class 89 to be 75% off, and buy it as broken for spare parts, if nobody wants to finish it off, and DTG are happy to take less money for it, as incomplete goods. Maybe in the early August sale, or the late August sale, or the September sale.....?
     
  36. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    You'll still be disappointed with it at 75% off. Let it go.
     
  37. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I can use it as background clutter for £2.99, or maybe I can haul it as a failed train with a Class 86. Could be quite authentic. ;-)
     
  38. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Ignore Plastic Pal - he just posts rubbish to try and wind people up
    The rest of us with the Class 89 are enjoying the Loco with the Extra Free Liveries from Vulcan Productions and the Free Sound upgrade :)
     
  39. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    No. I would just like a new product launched in 2020 for TS1 to be complete. I haven't actually bought the loco, but the reviews on Steam indicate that not completing the loco was a major failure, and that I should wait until it is massively reduced in price.

    I wasn't aware that there was a free sound upgrade. If that is the case, then I will buy the loco immediately. Is that the case? Is there a free sound "upgrade" available....?

    Also - is it actually an upgrade? Or is it just a completion of the loco? And.... is it actually free? If I buy the Class 89 from DTG, then is there anything else to pay to anyone....?

    I would love to have this loco, but I do not want to encourage DTG to make partially built products, when it would be easy for them to complete them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020 at 4:36 PM

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