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Tsw: “oh Canada!”

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Feb 6, 2020.

  1. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree thearkerportian.

    Whatever it is can apparently be seen in the trailer (which I don’t believe has been released yet).
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  2. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    No.
     
  3. doc_woods

    doc_woods Active Member

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    A few thoughts:
    • It doesn't initially look like an appealing content to value ratio to me. That may change given more information or a sale.
    • I've posted before about how TS1 has ended up a bit of a mess of duplicate stock which was a nightmare for scenario creation and tended to mean that new features didn't get backported to old versions. I'd hoped this would be improved for TSW... hopefully the GP38s can be linked together in some way for disk-space and ensuring improvements apply to all of them.
    • (Probably the main point of this post) I don't think switching and service mode has been hugely well-integrated so far - it tends to require a planned scenario to be enjoyable. That may be a limitation for this route. Obviously a scenario editor would help. Or alternatively maybe improvements to service mode might address this - some sort of switching randomizer perhaps?
    • I don't think the (apparent) lack of branding on the stations means too much for future plans. I'd guess if DTG were able to get licences for the passenger operators in future they could easily go back and add it to the route.
     
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  4. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It’s 24 not 18.
     
  5. russianchip

    russianchip Member

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    From the initial hype of it coming to Xbox to now, it’s kind of lost it’s appeal. Steam trains are so desperately needed, routes to really drive such as East Coast mainline or an extension to GWE so you can get into it and not just sit for 15 minutes at 125mph, slow down and stop. Swerving this one
     
  6. steadfast

    steadfast Member

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    The issue I have with DTG and the short routes isn't the shortness as such, it's that most feel like an unnatural break in a journey.
    Tees Valley and Trans Pennine both feel like a network and you're doing realistic runs A to B, have a break then do B to A, or B to C or whatever. The East Coastway one feels like they've given us a little slice with bits either end missing, and this Canadian route feels the same.
    One route that would feel like a complete network, as an example, would be Westbury to Merehead and Whatley quarries.
    Merehead is 15 miles from Westbury, Whatley is 9, of which 5 miles is shared with Merehead (Westbury-Clink Road). So 19 miles all in. Until Freightliner took over, most trains got relief at Westbury, so it would be prototypical to stop at Westbury after coming out the quarry, walk from up to down reception and take another train into one of the quarries. Not like Great Western Express where you randomly start at Reading on every single freight service. Some passenger trains from Westbury turn back at Frome too. For a five extra miles of plain track, Warminster could be included too. Westbury offers plenty of shunting potential too.
    DTG already do DB 66, Mendip JNA wagon, HKA hopper wagon, class 166 and HST. Include a new 59, a wagon and maybe a US switcher for the quarries, and happy days.
    Merehead also has the unique setup where to depart you propel at 10 mph.
    DTG, if you like the sound of this and pay handsomely for protype accuracy consultants, I sign all three freight locations...;)
     
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  7. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    You know what, I'm done with the copy and paste junk. I want Matt himself to give me the answer on why reuse the GP38 again, and why this route is not longer than it should have for the heavy hauling locos. I'm not listening anymore of these "excused" quotes without proof.
     
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  8. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Yes I am sure that the route on it's own would be enjoyable and I am sure that I will enjoy the tasks that are available but I was also looking for length as the rest of us were in this new route.

    Imagine this if you can in one service from a crew change point you bring the train into the yard, following instructions what track to put your train in and take the locos off and return them to the shops for cleaning and refueling. The next service you would grad a pair of yard engines, and deliver cars the full cars to their industries and pick up the empties and bring them back to the yard. The next service would be to rebuild a new train to go back up the line.

    I am not saying that I will not enjoy this release, as I sure that I will definitely enjoy it. But what I am trying to say is just missing a lot that would make the route that much better, and I am sure that others would agree.
     
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  9. Cheesypuff2

    Cheesypuff2 Active Member

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    For my take on this i have mixed feelings.

    However when talking to matt peddleston at Warley in the UK he talked about how they want to cover all the 'bases' before doing routes they wanted. For example in the uk this may mean a scotland route (TBC), a welsh route (TBC), a modern route (GWR), a historical route (NTP) , an electric route (ECW), a freight focused route (TV) and a heritage route (WSR).

    So for North America this could be a commuter line (LIRR), a west coast (PR), a long haul freight (HH), a switching route (Canadian route), an east coast route (NEC)

    There could be more 'bases' to cover and this could all be rubbish but it lends a reason to maybe why they are making routes agaisnt what seemingly the community wants.

    This switching route looks good to me, the only issue is price so i suspect ill wait for a sale :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
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  10. LIRRGuy

    LIRRGuy Well-Known Member

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    For me imma just skip this DLC and buy the New Caltrain DLC. I have mixed feelings as well, i mostly focus on passenger and frieght mixed routes.
     
  11. kennyjamesscott

    kennyjamesscott Member

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    Where is the freight? We want freight? Again short passenger route in England/Germany. I will never give Dovetail any money, all they do is rip us off!!!

    Pretty good roundup innit? I mean, finally only freight route in NA and what do ppl say?
    :D

    Get a LOVE grip will you trolls or create your own game.

    As for me, Hmmm, Canada is nice to have. Personally I will probably pass as I don't play much American stuff due to lack of being able to relate and stuff but I'm sure it will be great route with a lot to do.
    I actually like it and will definitely look at it on YouTube.
     
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  12. kennyjamesscott

    kennyjamesscott Member

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    *get a LOVE grip :D
     
  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I had to try to look at this quote several times, because my brain has a Zaphod Beeblebrox Sunglasses-Like Danger Filter which automatically removes things from my perceived reality when they are obviously complete and utter bulwarks, just in case I hurt myself.

    After banging my head into a large rusty spike I was able to start processing the text in the remains of my temporal cortex, and the best that my mind could come up with was "This has got to be a February Fools' Joke" (<<spoiler alert>> a tradition I previously did not realise happened on 6th February every year....). This started to make more sense when I realised that 'The Funniest Joke In The World' is one of the last sketches in the first episode of the first series ("season") of Monty Python's Flying Circus, which is called "Whither Canada". Must be connected somehow. It's all a hoax, right?

    But no. It probably is genuinely an aspiration. Unfortunately, TSW has, hands down and by a very significant margin, the worst ever tutorial process - it is absolutely not designed to be accessible. The atrocious UI doesn't even include a manual on XBox/PS4 (online or offline), and the DS4 controller map is still wrong. The 'problem' is that it appears that the people that make decisions on whether something is accessible have probably got a decade of experience and acceptance of very poorly designed Train Simulator-esque software UIs, and the assumption is that this is what everyone else has, and that they are all quite happy bunnies.

    For the refreshing experts: it is inherently possible to develop skills in TSW and 'progress' (the scope is actually quite considerable), but none of this is ever explained anywhere in any reasonably understandable way (....or any way at all) - this aspect is left completely open-ended, and requires the user to bring extensive rail knowledge, to make the most of the software. TSW really is a niche product for a special interest group, and is designed in a way that makes it clear that nobody else is welcome to the party.

    The really scary thing is the possibility that maybe someone at Dovetail genuinely believes their own hyperbole. They probably used to work for the Marketing Division at the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation..... and we all know what happened to them in the end... As for the Corporation itself, well... only the Complaints Department survived the general economic implosion of the company as a whole. Apparently.
     
  14. Gilly

    Gilly Active Member

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    As the Bishop said to the actress....
    Actually split coffee at that point and at least it injected a chuckle into the mix!
     
  15. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this - you've made quite a well-balanced post here, and I think that you are generally right. I won't be buying this DLC because I have now stopped buying TSW DLCs altogether, until the old TSW DLCs are fixed (within reason).

    But I do think that a Canadian route was the right way to go. And an Indian one would be good, and an Australian one.. to put the "World" into "Train Sim World". And a very very long largely featureless South African mining one too, with some yawning elephants in the background, if people want miles in their routes as top priority...(?). (This isn't my priority - I'd happily take a ten mile route, if it is content/feature rich, educational, busy, and poses a meaningful challenge, and, of course, has been QA tested before being released at a reasonable price).

    But - £25 for a DLC is obviously utterly ridiculous. And £11.50 for a DLC to a DLC is insulting. Dovetail are the worst at this, but they might well depend on doing this because they do not seem to be able or willing to make the UI/software more appealling to a much wider audience. That much wider audience is out there to be "fished", just waiting to buy TSW in large numbers, across the world, but TSW itself is not yet ready for them - it would be completely impossible to use for most people.

    This is different, say, compared to The Sims 4. That's a niche market that is already fully exploited/whaled, but the software is flawless. Sims 4 has arrived, for free, with PS Plus this month. If you buy the DLC expansions individually then you'll need to part with over £500. But the base game itself is extensive, with a massive amount of content/features/writing. A very small number of people with the base game will buy any of these DLCs (...say 1%), but the few "whales" that do might well spend £500. And there is probably a Sims 4 Forum somewhere out there where ardent fans are sending each other screenshots of funny user-generated social situations/Sim interactions, etc.., and complaining that the latest M&S onesie hasn't been designed yet for the upcoming "Sleepwear DLC"...
     
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  16. jondc90

    jondc90 New Member

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    I've been waiting for dovetail to release a DLC based in Canada... With all of the European and American lines they've made so far, I never thought they'd bother with Canada -- even though there is so much potential here. BUT, why on earth would they choose Ontario when we have the Rockies and the Coastal mountains that offer some of the most scenic and challenging routes in the world?

    Hopefully, dovetail will revisit Canada with a better location and longer route. And please include passenger service with VIA Rails EMD F40PH! They already have the base model, just needs a little paint!


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

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    CN-locos.jpg

    1) Why not this one (Console players have not this locomotive cause they have not Heavy Haul pack)
    2) Canadian border crossing (Whirpool Bridge) it's too cool for TSW route?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
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  18. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    You already know in TSW this will look nothing like in the pictures... Instead we will get bare minimum scenery, a few randomly placed trees and plain green hills. Distant scenery in TSW is simply horrible. The skybox is horrible too.
     
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  19. Rookie_One

    Rookie_One New Member

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    I hope we will get heavier locomotives at one point, as either their SD70ACe or SD70M-2, or the GE C44-9W or the ES44AC, or even the SD70I and the SD75I.

    Especially considering that the CN, with the CP, were the first railway to use wide-nose cabs for most of their locomotives AFAIK
     
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  20. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Would love too see this added into TSW
     
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  21. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    I gonna buy it but reluctantly, but I have not bought something in a year now.
    The route looks good but far to short. Marias pass is 152 miles, this is around 24 miles.
    It is 6 times shorter than Marias Pass. They say the length on route have not to do with consoles.
    but you still wonder if it have with consoles to do. They have to make a long route to prove that it has nothing to do with it
     
  22. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    DTG wrote in the article, that on OSD are mainline actions. On youtube there are OSD videos with a lot of heavy freight action. So it would be authentic if we get a heavy freight loco Addon for OSD in the near future. And I would be very happy to drive such a machine. - :)
     
  23. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I have looked at this question closely - is TSW a sim? I'd say that it is currently an "open-ended train driving game". (*ducks for cover*)

    However, TSW does include some elements of simulation, but nothing much to write home about (I happen to be writing a book about simulators, and it is currently really difficult to justify mentioning TSW, even in passing....).

    I was quite shocked to see the thread about the Class 40 not including any coupler physics (https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/coupler-physics.16771/), or indeed, any animation, because this sort of thing was (I am fairly sure) part of MSTS over a decade ago (if I am wrong, please let me know - I really am not sure...). So not much innovation there....

    You do get coupler interaction on the 31 and 37 on TVL. And you certainly always get gravity, and it is applied around the Centre of Gravity of a consist. And momentum. And timings for application of brakes and relative braking force. And bizarrely for electric trains there is sometimes a delay for power, even downhill, which feels like the reverse of braking (and not likely to be slip). There is stuff going on, and sometimes it even works (unless it is the Class 47). I'd expect this sort of mixed quality with user-generated content for TS20xx, but TSW content is wholly under the control of Dovetail, and the variation in build quality is still huge - almost as if there is no QA process in place at all. I am not 100% convinced by the new "camera body roll/sway" feature (but to be frank, my concerns on this are extremely minor - I am easily 99.99% convinced....!) - this is still a massive improvement for immersion - so some things are going in the right direction - you certainly now know about it if you take a tight radius Xing at 90mph...

    Even when it is done well, the "simulation" is still really very basic. But it is better than nothing at all. Rail Vehicle Dynamics are horrendously complicated in real life, so I don't expect to see a full multi-body simulation in TSW. But the trains are pretty, and they usually sound nice. That said - the Class 101 DMMU and the DB BR 155 (except for sound issues on RSN) are quite outstanding - and this gives a clue to what could be done if there was a steam simulation. The puffs of smoke from the TVL steel plants might be a bit of a tease on this....

    You do get quite a lot of services where once you have sat down, you only need to carry out half a dozen actions to start the service and complete it - and the run can take an hour - so that is one button press or lever pull per ten minutes.... And that is really very very strange - not much simulation happening there methinks.

    You do get a simulated timetable, but this is meaningless unless you own all of the DLC, as nearly every base route is completely empty of traffic without the vehicle DLC (and this is why it is shocking that core parts of the software are sold as DLC at all). But then there are also sparks of timetabling genius (keep an eye out for the six-loco train on RSN, for example - very cleverly done).

    If the physics model was improved/varied, as you suggest (say, for weather conditions), then this would be a massive plus. But the real shortcomings of TSW are that the potential for simulating operations has not been exploited. There should be more storyboarding/planning/testing and goal-setting. Without goal-setting, it won't matter if your train is late because there are leaves on the line, or slippy icy conditions.

    Ironically, if they made this "simulator" more "game-like", then it would be a much better simulator.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
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  24. Major Dunbar

    Major Dunbar New Member

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    This route seems interesting. I think we needed another good freight hauling route. And one that's PRIMARILY freight. I noticed how in one of the pictures the gantry signals are turned sideways which means the signals are not yet operating. That's an incredible touch of realism to me. Iv seen CSX do the same thing!
     
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  25. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree. TSW feels like a game that can't decide what it wants to be. It isn't quite arcade enough to be a "game" but not realistic enough to be a sim. If DTG could simply focus on one of those identities and worked to conform what a game or sim entail, TSW could be much better.
     
  26. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    The absence of cold starts and your train already being pretty much set up for you massively takes away the immersion. Especially during runs from the depot at the start of the day.

    The game tries to cater for all, which automatically means it’s going to be somewhere in the middle of ‘arcade’ and ‘sim’.

    Armstrong Powerhouse, a developer for TS1, specifically aims their products to hardcore, simulation fans, and includes the tiniest of details.

    Until we get another developer involved in making their own content for TSW, I can’t see things changing.
     
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  27. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    Agree but compare to TS2020 is it so much more a simulator. TS2020 is a arcad game.
    Ts2020 Brakes totally unrealistic. Way to fast in both ways
    Train goes to fast uphill and rolls to bad in downhill.
    I get so annoyed many times when I drive ts2020 and I don't experience that much in TSW.
    But Run8 and open rails is much better than TSW

    This route should be so interesting to see what Dovetail have learned in old mistake they did.
    In route Sand Patch Grade TSW many or all wagon is shown full but there is empty ( in weight )
    So loaded coal train is way to light. It is a really a empty coal train.
     
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  28. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Yeah... TSW is... was... the trainsim I always dreamed of, but the way it is heading... not any more. I'm no casual trainsimmer, at least not casual enough.
    It's like meeting the most stunning girl you could imagine, beautiful, smart, a tons of different talents and you are seriously considering to spend the rest of your life with her... then it turns out she's lesbian. Not that that would be something bad per se... but well you get the point. Unavailable.
     
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  29. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    This is the most accurate thing I've ever heard about TSW. I want to like it but I just can't.
     
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  30. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    Ever heard of a little something called mods?
     
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  31. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    Yes it is better, but but there are major fundamental errors in the TS2020. But some of these mods can make the error smaller.
    Have come up with some techniques to get trains rolling downhill en settings in wagon. but it is very bad TS.
    TSW is still under development and TS not (for the last 5 years maybe).
    I have some real experience in train handling. Dad was train engineer and sometime i could follow him in freight trains in Sweden
    So I know how train brakes works ( delays ) and how many a thousand tons is felt in the up and down slopes


    PS One thing I miss in TSW in wind drag even Matt say so one time DS
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
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  32. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    Then how did they do the heavy haul locomotives for CSX HH? And for the TS franchise?
     
  33. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    They probably just didn't The sounds are pretty inaccurate for the GEVOs in both TS20 and TSW.
     
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  34. Juxen

    Juxen Well-Known Member

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    Since everyone on the forums is weighing in, I'll add my two cents (or pence).

    I want to like this route. I really do. I love the idea of a short switching route with a first-gen diesel. But not at $30 (or 25 pounds, whichever your monetary denomination). Part of the fun of switching, for me, is the ability to think your way through a problem, like how to get this cut of cars buried 10 deep over to track 3 over there in as few moves as possible. But on a short route, and without the ability to adjust angle cocks and tie air hoses (something that should be relatively easy to do in UE4, a slider and a toggle command), as well as have brakes that apply too quickly, I'm going to have to pass at this price. I'd gladly grab this at $10-15, and I might in a year when it hits sale.

    For now, I'll be in either Derail Valley or Run8, where I can switch to my heart's content. One has pretty graphics and a steam engine, while the other has accurate physics and an open sandbox.
     
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  35. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    There are no GEVOs in TSW.
     
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  36. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    A Question about the new Canadian DLC:
    >>>>
    Before the new DLC is published and distributed for sale, will the publishers carry out basic tests on the primary content?
    >>>>
    To explain - I am setting the bar here as low as possible. I am not asking if the DLC will be:

    - stress-tested on multiple PC configurations
    - optimised for graphics performance for any platform at all
    - fully checked for boundary integrity, and analysed for unexpected user actions
    - checked for perfection in physics interactions (or reasonably expectation of physics performance)
    - have all artwork checked and approved (it's normally pretty good any way....)
    - have all of the correct sounds triggered in the right place at the right time
    - thoroughly checked to include every single training, scenario, journey and service module

    Some people might expect all of the above to be done, for a paid for DLC, made available for purchase at a premium price. I might even be one of those people. But.... I am only asking if the DLC will be tested:

    - on one standard recommended spec PC, an example XBox and an example PS4
    - to check that all of the training and scenario modules can be played through from start to finish, and that all instructions for these modules are clear and match the hover text for train controls etc.
    - to check that all of the Journey modules can simply be played through from start to finish (even if the instructions are nonsensical and left unchecked)
    - to check that all other service modules can be started and played for just the first two minutes of each module (even if the modules then subsequently break or can't be finished - I am just asking for the first two minutes to be checked)
    - to check that any trophies/achievements for each platform that should be awarded by that point are actually awarded

    The above should take no more than one working day, in total.

    Can this bare minimum amount of testing be done, for this DLC? Is it humanly possible?
     
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  37. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    Dash-9s, whatever. What I'm getting at is that most of the sounds are inaccurate and reused.
     
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  38. Gilly

    Gilly Active Member

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    Considering they have a passionate and willing community here I'm surprised that this isn't something they've considered before.
    I'm sure there are more than capable people here that would be willing to give up their time to test new routes and locos.
    I've personally been part of the world of tanks test server on PS4 and those closed sessions found things not even thought of or considered prior to launch.
    If DTG where open to considering such a project I'm only to happy to put my name in the hat and coordinate for the PS4.
     
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  39. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    Thats a damn poor excuse. Theres plenty in museums, exhibits, and hell, 4014.
     
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  40. BNSF650

    BNSF650 Member

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    Well i am glad to see how most people feel about this route .. Its the same old thing from the Dovetail.. They don't listen to the railfans who buy the product. Instead they over price this stuff and are happy about it. Why not add more stuff and make the railfans want to buy it. TSW will never be top of the line train sim.

    Matt do you hear us?
     
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  41. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    He meant the big heavy hauled diesels (ie. GEVOs and ACes). Which I still want to know why no Dash 9s or SD50Fs for this route in the first place Would be good to have 3 locos just to make this route more or less worthy like NTP or TVL.
    However, I'm still waiting for any progress of steam being officially made.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
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  42. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    I see. But they could get a gp9 but not the most basic and common locomotive possibly ever made? Still a poor excuse.
     
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  43. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    That basic and common loco being a dash 9.
     
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  44. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention they have an AC4400CW in the game already, I'm sure that could be modified with railroad-specific details like the GP38-2 has.

    And, heck, technically the dash 9 was the DC version of tge AC4400CW (vice versa is more accurate but still), so while there are a lot of differences there, they could probably still modify the AC4400CW enough to get there with as much effort as it takes to create a whole new locomotive.
     
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  45. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Member

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    I don't buy that. Sure, it's probably harder to get one for sampling, but certainly not impossible, especially with proper planning and coordination with the railroad. I'm assuming sampling the audio is probably the thing that's most time consuming, so they could easily make up for that by using 3rd party resources. Heck, Searchlight Simulations has some great audio for TS1 for the EMD645, 710, and GEVO engines. IMO, part of running a business effectively is knowing your strengths and weaknesses and reacting accordingly. I mean from what I've seen, even EMD locos have GE/Wabtec parts within them...
     
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  46. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    Funny thing, Matt did say earlier on a different thread about the GP9:
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
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  47. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, there's plenty of commonality in appearance both internally and externally. All the animation/scripting for the cab controls is pretty much identical. When it comes to sounds they both have the 7FDL16 prime mover, so they sound almost identical too. I definitely don't buy the 'can't get access' excuse.
     
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  48. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    How do people still defend DTG. I dont even see last train to clarksville defending them anymore.
     
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  49. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    Oh believe me, while this CN route may have been turned into a switching route. Still hoping for it to be a little bit more than that. Loco addon or not
     
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  50. jpmackay

    jpmackay Active Member

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    Agreed with you Challenger 3985 that you said this route turned into a switching route not a route at all. I live near there.

    John
     
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