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Tsw 2 – Building The Tgv Duplex

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Nov 27, 2020.

  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Talking of catenary, it seems DTG still don’t know how to terminate a section of wire properly. Seriously, how long will it take you to build a decent catenary system which doesn’t just abruptly stop in random places?!

    10A429E7-4037-4B6E-90E5-7DE2AD0CAAC3.jpeg

    Do you know what this is, DTG..?

    upload_2020-11-30_1-22-38.jpeg
     
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  2. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly they need to improve it with terminal section and with the line tensioning system when in every x kilometers the section of catenary changes it’s not the same from A to B
     
  3. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Assuming the catenary is expensive in terms of processing having it drawn in constantly at high speeds then it’s obviously going to be a simplified version of it included in the game so it doesn’t impact performance. Doubling the number of wires to make it more accurate will halve the performance in game. I’m not sure having the correct terminations would add significantly to either performance hit or enjoyment of the route, so that cancels out, but it would add to development time, which is going to be quite large on a longer route like this. They would have to be put in the right place for the nitpickers and that would take a lot to achieve. We’ve covered the wrong poles, the wrong cable and the wrong terminations now (and a wrong pantograph thrown in for good measure), what’s next? There’s the slightly wrong ballast colour as well, nearly forgot that. Anything that actually matters though? These things really aren’t going to be of any concern to most players. Anyone noticed anything good in these previews? Anyone?
     
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  4. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Hey, I'm already happy if wires follow a straight line in between poles/gantries, and don't perfectly curve along with the tracks as in some previous routes.
     
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  5. ronaldix

    ronaldix Active Member

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    Well it doesn't matter for someone who doesn't know the real thing or is not passionate enough by these things, but when you know how it's supposed to be and/or are passionate about great details that makes a great route, It matters, and I can tell you that a LOT of people in the french community and elsewhere too are upset about these mistakes and more and more are hesitating to even buy the route because of that.
     
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  6. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    It’s called constructive criticism. If you’re happy with DTG using a default ‘all the same’ asset library, then fair enough. But some people are used to seeing these ‘small details’ looking as near accurate as possible, after coming from TS1, from playing third party routes. Some of these routes have immense, amazing looking assets and scenery.

    So don’t disregard these players or treat it as a burden to include these smaller, finer details. Some people expect more than others.
     
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  7. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the catenary is a massive issue. It's close enough and only off by a little.
     
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  8. jeremydunn8

    jeremydunn8 Well-Known Member

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    Third part content always seems to be of higher quality than what DTG can do. Especially with American content. For BNSF to come to the game, it would have to be made by a third party, since they don’t give licenses overseas. Why they do this is beyond me, it’s free advertising. But DTG seems to be providing the tools, and trying their best to make a few routes, but if you want quality, you’re gonna want those 3rd party DLC’s. This is why people wanted an editor so much.
     
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  9. ronaldix

    ronaldix Active Member

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    It's the same with german and english content in TS, the quality and realism is better from 3rd party developers such as Virtual Railroads or Armstrong Powerhouse than from DTG.
     
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  10. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I've mentioned it in the last TGV thread. HMA shows that the amount of catenary probably isn't a problem. Between Passing and Augsburg, you're constantly running with double the number of poles, wires and tracks as it's a 4 track section. So having a 2 track here with more detailed catenary would not hurt judging by this.
     
  11. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I expect third party and especially private mods to be more accurate in these small details because they can be labours of love, whereas DTG have employees working to a fixed schedule of content production. They have a different balance in terms of time they are willing to spend on little things.

    It is why the editor is so missed, DTG could put things out and the community would polish them up. This sounds like us doing their job, but its the same with betas where you can never get your small team to find as many small faults as the userbase will find in a fraction of the time. Some of the packs that are already available like the GWE mod pack are great, but I am not sure DTG would be so inclined to spend the time on the posters, bins etc.

    It is interesting that there are other threads - active today, where people want more core updates and additional functionality and these threads where people want more small details.

    The key is that each party has things they do best, and things only they can do. Comparative advantage should be used to work out who does what. E.g. if we could share liveries DTG only need to one per item and the community would supply the rest, there would be far more than there are now, tiny little variations, one-offs, legacy versions etc.
     
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  12. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think that it would affect the processing as when the catenary switch to new section or on switches it’s just a few meters I just think it’s pure laziness
     
  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It might be the longest route but it can be done in half an hour which is way too short for a high speed route when your doing speeds of 200mph
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I hope that they actually model the overhead wires correctly for future routes with overhead wires. DTG keeps advertising routes as being built as realistically as possible. But instead they are copying and pasting assets from other routes and at times it seems that they are not bothered to build things realistically do so just so they can meet a deadline which should not be the case. Personally, I will not be buying this route simply because it's too short for the high speeds. I'm not spending $30 on a high speed route that can be done in 30 minutes with only one train. If this route gets extended then I'll buy the route and the extension.
     
  15. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    BNSF actually would be more than happy to allow DTG to make content but the reason for the licensing issues is not BNSF's shrewdness, but actually because they don't own the BNSF trademark outside of the U.S. and therefore don't have the authority to sanction international content. At least that is what Matthew Peddlesden said many many moons ago.
     
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  16. jeremydunn8

    jeremydunn8 Well-Known Member

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    If this were the case, then why would the other American railroads not have the same issue? If it were the law I’d assume it would apply to everyone.
     
  17. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, I am only parroting the reason that Matt P. gave. I presume it is about how BNSF does not own the trademark outside of the U.S., not necessarily any particularly restrictive law. Why only BNSF, I am not certain.
     
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  18. cooper-jr

    cooper-jr New Member

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    I'm very excited to see this itinerary again so early in TSW2. This proves that it has been a great success on Train simulator, from 2016 to today. And what's more, it's a first for a French itinerary!

    Your previews are really very promising. TSW2 is a real step forward in terms of details, sensation of speed, visual and especially sound effects! The TGV Duplex looks much better than before, in this Carmillon color, with the small traces of dirt on the nose to add credibility.

    My expectations of improvement for this DLC are :
    - High speed track inclination.
    - More advanced driving elements.
    - A little more life in the station (on the platforms as well as on the rails).
    - French LGV catenaries and not those of the HS1 of TS.
    - Horn characteristic of the TGV.
    - High-speed exterior sound characteristic of TGVs.

    I can't wait to travel this beautiful route aboard the beast!

     
  19. Agent Qracle RUS

    Agent Qracle RUS Active Member

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    Very optimistic, mate, very) - but it's DTG.....​
     
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  20. AFR7545

    AFR7545 New Member

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    Yes. So we can't expect the series of the Dayse (700) to be used also on Munich to Augsbourg HSL with the charactheristic sound of the Dayse?
     
  21. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    Nope it’ll be the 200 series with te synchrone motors which is from the Réseau. Maybe they’ll do the same mistake as the TS version and put the Dasye sound on the 200 series
     
  22. elvescast

    elvescast Active Member

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    It's nice you keep doing this however I'd prefer to only hear about it when it's time for release.

    Keep seeing it say THV duplex and getting excited whenever I turn on the game just to have to deflate again
     
  23. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    The sounds will probability be the same used for TS, I highly doubt they managed to get new recordings.
     
  24. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Your expectations will probably not be achieved. It's dtg after all
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
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  25. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Wenel thanks for the feedback on the pantographs. I spoke with the engineer working on the TGV and he's corrected it to use the right pantograph for AC/DC (we had them backwards!) - the behaviour for 4 vs 2 pantographs on AC/DC modes is already in there and working as you've described. We also have the

    Unfortunately the overhead wires you're seeing in Marseille won't be changing at this point.

    Matt.
     
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  26. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    But in the TS version you put the 1.5 KV DC overhead catenary why don’t you pick this asset to put it in the TSW version as it’s weird to see 25KV AC in Marseille Saint-Charles
     
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  27. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Correct. If you didn't have time to make a dedicated asset for it, why didn't you port in the TS1 model? It would've been more accurate compared to what you've used in game, in TSW 2.. TS1 screenshot below:

    [​IMG]
     
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  28. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    If the catenary is auto generated there is the possibility it's physically impossible to have two different catenary models for the same stretch of track... similarly to how the speed limit changes are inaccurate in the BKL line, hopefully if a solution will be developed in the future routes such as this will be updated. At this point I'm guessing if the changing from 25kV to 1.5kV will be necessary or if you can use the 25kV panto in Marseille Saint-Charles without problems.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  29. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Also, does this mean the switchover change will not be necessary if it's all 25KV? If not, then that's a pretty big immersion killer. Especially if the train has been modelled to support multiple voltages, but the route won't support it.
     
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  30. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    I hope the switchover will be necessary... will we be able to run with the panto up in third rail in SE-HS or is that any different?
     
  31. AlexNL

    AlexNL Well-Known Member

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    In that case, can you please ask the people in your marketing department to stop using phrases such as "authentically recreated" and whatnot? It doesn't really live up to its expectations anymore when you've got inadequacies like this one, of which you are already saying that it won't be changed.

    There are a lot of technical reasons as to why 1500 V catenary looks and functions in a way which is very different to 25 kV catenary. Having 25 kV OLE with 1500 volts on it, while not technically impossible, will give the permanent way engineers quite a number of headaches. Low voltages come with high amperages, which in turn leads to the wire warming up .

    1500 V DC OLE has a double contact wire to deal with the amperage. While a single wire could be used, you'd have to impose a limit to how much power can be drawn in order to not overheat the wire. This means trains can accelerate less quickly or must run at lower speeds in order to not break the limits. In a busy area like Marseille, that's undesirable.
     
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  32. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    That's a pretty huge yikes right there TBH. You have the research information, you have the asset (both supposedly since prior to TS1 release 4 and half years ago), Marseille is not a big station meaning performance hit is also not a case with slightly more complex catenary, so... why? Difference between AC and DC in France is probably the biggest I've seen (in my country it's just basically different insulators being used). It is not a much smaller difference than overhead/third rail on SEHS (try doing that one...). And it definitely begs for a VERY IMPORTANT question - Will this be fixed in the future? There are not many changes to the map being done at all, so I am very doubtful. And considering it might've been decided to ignore this on purpose... oh boy.
     
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  33. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    At this point, I'm prepared to see AI have their pantograph up in third rail areas and vice versa.

    I'm not hopeful the OLE and power systems will be terribly accurate on SEHS, given today's announcement of this route...
     
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  34. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe that's why LGV leapfrogged SE-HS... they couldn't do the switchover and decided it was less important for this route? Hopefully if that's the case and a solution is found DTG will look back at this route, but it's just huge speculation. What a huge shame... I was really looking forward to this route, it has no variety and in my opinion the one thing it does (TGVs from Marseille to Avignon) have to be perfect for it to be worthwhile...
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  35. ronaldix

    ronaldix Active Member

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    Guys calm down, I can't believe I'm the one saying this after everything I said about the OLE on this route but in the Marseille screenshot you can see 1500V OLE in the backround, I believe they used the 25 kV looking OLE only in the depot area of Marseille and maybe the station itself (but we have no screenshot of that so I can't say for sure) where in reality it's a 1 wire OLE, but what I don't understand is why they didn't use the 1 wire OLE they've done for the TS1 version of the route, it would've been a million time more realistic than this 25kV looking OLE.
     
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  36. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    I hope you are right. The switchover and the two different kinds of OLE are fundamental for this route, almost as much as they will be for SE-HS, that's why we are so concerned...
     
  37. ronaldix

    ronaldix Active Member

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    Oh I completely understand, believe me, I'm french and I love french railways so I know exactly how fundamental those switwhovers are, + I absolutely love our 1500V OLE so i'd be devastated if they didn't put 1500V OLE in Marseille, I'm already sad to see the 25kV OLE in the depot but I hope that they'll fix it after the release with the correct one wire OLE that they've already done for TS1.
     
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  38. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    If that happened in the SEHS, I wouldn't at all be suprised
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Now that's what I call false advertising by Dovetail Games. Just like how they falsy advertised tsw2 as a "new game" when in practice, it was more of a update to the old game (which you had to pay for) instead of a new game. I wonder why they can't be a bit more honest about things
     
  40. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I would hope that the switchover will still be there. One thing that gives me hope that it will be is that in TSW the power doesn’t actually come from the cables that are represented, they are just images. It’s the same as the pretend diesel the trains use on SPG.
     
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  41. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    If the cables are only images then why would they have problems using the 1.5kV ones in Marseille? Hopefully ronaldix is right and the 25kV are only in the depot and the line and the station itself has the correct ones...
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
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  42. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    If the 25 KV AC is only on the depot it doesn’t make sense as it’s next to Marseille Saint-Charles which is under 1.5KV DC until the LGV so you need to switch the tension when leaving the depot from both side so nope the whole MSC will be under 25KV AC which proves once again that they’re so lazy
     
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  43. ffabio89

    ffabio89 New Member

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    Penso che la cosa peggiore sia che they don't answer us why following this production line, instead talking to us to improve bug's and 3D's errors.
    Sì, la comunicazione è così migliore di prima but now I think is a little low, if they really want release a good DLC without bug
     
  44. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The issues come from quickly rendering the more complex graphics. Performance takes a hit with everything they have to draw. The pretend voltages in the cables don’t cause any issues, as they don’t exist.
     
  45. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    I got that, but if that's the case, why wouldn't they use the 1.5kV style centenary which looks a lot different from the 25kV one, at the end it's just a swap from one "image" to another...
     
  46. ronaldix

    ronaldix Active Member

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    I don't think OHLE causes a performance problem for this route as it has way less OHLE than Munich-Ausburg for example, and the OHLE in the depot IRL is with 1 wire only so it would impact even less the performances if they used the real ones.
     
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  47. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    Of courses that’s why you can run any electric trains on wireless lines but the the problem here is realism I mean if they put the two different tension in TS they can do the same on TSW and I don’t see why the catenary will affect performance.
     
  48. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    That would not be the case, 1,5 kV (the "more complex" OHLE) is only on the lower speed sections on approach to Marseille. You wouldn't be riding these at 320 km/h.
     
  49. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The lower speed is still fast for rendering graphics though. If the area is also more complex, around the large station for example, then all savings become advantageous and having twice the polygons for the catenary might be too much overall, so that’s where easy savings could be made. I’m not saying it’s definitely the reason but it seems logical to me.
     
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  50. Agent Qracle RUS

    Agent Qracle RUS Active Member

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    Arhahahhah, good job man! - now you totaly convinced me not buying this route (shame of course - im know what you will never fix this)
     
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