What if... they never started working on these TSW2 patches in the first place? What I mean is that the TSW3 patches were ready, but they never made a start on porting those? There is a possibility. When they just announced that they abandon it, it made me not to pre-order TSW4. Not because I need those TSW2 updates, it's because they were not honest. I would say these TSW3 patches won't come either...
It's all very well killing off TSW2 and TSW3 but.............................................. have they killed those bugs that existed in those versions so they don't carry over into TSW4!??? Will I finally be able to sit in a MK2 again and see the correct PIS displaying at stations and on trains, telling me I'm in Matlock when I'm actually in Derby, telling me the next stop is Ebsfleet when infact it's Stratford International. Will Passengers start boarding again? Will trains finally stop being driven with no drivers? Will trains going forward finally stop displaying their taillights instead of day/night lights? Will the MK2 standard class all stop being numbered M12345? Will we finally get AI steam chuff sounds and proper steam controls with the release of Flying Scotsman? Only a month to wait but I think I already know the answers
Scorpion71 Exactly THIS is the question and I doubt it. bakedpotatos.jm THANK you for your posting! I can`t thank you enough for this. It sums up the problems perfectly and is not only for TSW2 but the example for how DTG treats problems and fixes at all. Also thank you for reminding me about the BR187 and its sound...that`s the perfect story of how things should not be and also the standards DTG seems to set for 3rd party developers.
And TSW3 will follow in due course, whilst people here say if you don't want to buy it all again in TSW4 then stick with TSW3. How would that be possible if it gets killed too?
But nothing changes with my dlc in 3 to 4? Except a new hud. That's a patch update at most yet DTG want me to pay for it and re-download 100GB plus to get it.
It’s not a question of ‘if’ but ‘when’. It would appear that contrary to the TSW4 FAQ the MML patch will in fact make it to TSW3. However, doesn’t this all sound so familiar, particularly the phrase ‘Our intention is to release for TSW3 patches as soon as we can’. From the roadmap; TSW3 and TSW4 Patch Schedule In yesterday’s Roadmap article, we spoke about the Day 1 content you can expect from Train Sim World 4. Today, we wanted to provide more detail on the future content TSW3 players can expect from us. Please note that everything in the TSW3 column will also be available on Day 1 for TSW4. Our intention is to release for TSW3 patches as soon as we can. More details about the content of the patches will be confirmed upon release. Train Sim World 3 - Timeframe to be Confirmed New York-Trenton New Timetable Peninsula Corridor Baby Bullet Services Midland Main Line Route Improvement Patch Tutorial Fixes: DRA BR143 Intro HML Route Intro DRA 766.2 Intro RT DBpbzfa Intro LGV Route Intro SKA BR442 tutorial SFJ Intro MP36PH-3C Intro Scenario Fixes: DRA Chemical Plant Zone HSC Altoona Alignment HSC Portage Process ARL Tis The Season BPE Cold as Ice Norfolk Southern Heritage Pack Post-release Improvements The patches being released on launch day for Peak Forest, SEHS, Birmingham Cross City, Edinburgh to Glasgow and others (which are all patches that have been promised for some time in TSW3 for DLC that we have all paid for) are going to locked behind the TSW4 paywall. In my opinion that really is about as low as you can go. I’m sure they won’t give a damn, but I might well contact Steam and see what their take on this is because it really is as sketchy as it gets. This is what they’re pushing out as patches on release day for the stuff we’ve paid money for, but that is now forever behind a paywall (the stuff in red directly affects me); Train Sim World 4 Launch (TSW4 Only) [Large] New York-Trenton New Timetable [Large] Nahverkehr Dresden TSW4 Feature Set [Medium] Southeastern High-Speed Patch Niddertalbahn BR 628 [Small] Edinburgh-Glasgow route improvements patch [Small] Bremen-Oldenburg route improvements patch [Small] Peak Forest Route post-release improvements patch [Small] Island Line patch [Small] Birmingham Cross-City Patch DB BR 187 Audio improvement Train Sim World 4 - Projected after Launch Peninsula Corridor Baby Bullet Services Koln-Aachen New Timetable I mean, for Christ’s sake, they’ve even got the front to call the Peak Forest patch a ‘post release improvement patch’. Are they taking the piss?!
Exactly. Products I've previously bought are now being updated behind another paywall, effectively making it a yearly subcription because if I opt out of TSW4 then I don't get these updates. This is totally ridiculous in my opinion as these are products (some I paid full price for) are no longer supported for me unless I cough up some more money for DTG. There is a route I would like to buy in the future - Birmingham Cross City - I'd have to buy it right now on TSW3 probably at full price just to stay on TSW3 with it. Because next month all these dlcs will only be able to be purchased in TSW4.
I don`t know. Patches for BRO and Niddertalbahn are on the same side. Routes for TSW3, bought for TSW3. Patches now locked behind the the wall of TSW4. BR 187 has been original released for TSW2! The fixes are promised since its release. Btw. as I have a long time not played it, what did happen to the Spirit of Steam improvements in the meantime? Was SOS not also part of TSW2 in its original release and should have gotten updates (manual fireman, improvements for HOW the steam enginges work etc?)
I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but for me it's a complete non-event. I'm happy to pay for TSW4 because I see that as a natural evolution from TSW3, and because whether I'm paying $57 CAD as a 'paywall' or $57 CAD for three routes and two locos is immaterial to me - it's the price of a delivered pizza these days. I love the new features and am happy to support the company's efforts in making them. I respect that your (and others) perspective is different, but a lot of people share my view if my read of all these threads is correct. I also don't see malice in it. I don't see any black capes and moustache-twirling villains tying young women to railroad tracks. Could they have done it better? Of course. Are they perpetually hampered by the 'two steps forward, one step backward' approach they seem to prefer? Apparently so. It must have been quite disheartening for them to see the volume and force of comments back at them, but IMO it's very much a self-inflicted wound. What a silly thing to do, in hindsight, in not providing an avenue for people to just get the TSW4 updates bundle-free - either by giving it away without charge as they did in TSC or else charging a modest fee. Seems very much a Pyrrhic victory to me - forcing people to buy routes they don't want and smacking a hornet's nest with a large stick in the process. Must work for them, though, as they do it year after year. Probably someone on the financial side seeing only pounds coming in and completely blind to the goodwill flowing out. I hope you can either move past this in time, or else find a future bundle your conscience can live with, as I've enjoyed your posts and your perspectives in the past. Watching that marathon stream yesterday, I found myself overjoyed with just two changes and would happily have paid the Deluxe cost just for those, never mind all the routes and locos - that's the mini HUD and Free Roam. Game changers both, IMO, that will exponentially increase my enjoyment of a game I happen to enjoy very much already. Even for all it's faults. (Yes, driving-empty-trains, I'm speaking to you...) As always, YMMV.
No it isn't; not at all. That would be comparable to the change from the C07 to C08 Corvette: completely new design from the wheels up, with a mid-engine vice front-engine layout. The change between the '22 and '23 Camry amounts to some different chrome and an upgraded data screen. Even when the changes are really just cosmetic - Maybe you think the Mass Effect Legendary Edition should have been a free upgrade for everyone who already owned the games on XBox 360?
What a comparison is this? Three games in a bundle with updated graphics, new textures, reworked stuff etc. This would mean TSW4 would include a rework of all older routes (off course access only if I would own them), all graphical updates which are TSW3 and 4 exclusive to all older routes, the new features to all older routes, new features to all older locos, rework etc.
That is not the point, surely ppl. are "happy" to pay. I`ve already pre-orderer myself, of course I did, I enjoy TSW, it is for me currently the only "go to" train sim out their without fiddling and spending tons of money to TSC. As much as I like certain things in TSC I love the timetable mode in TSW. But this all has nothing to do with people being locked out of fixes for content they bought. Imagine you have bought the BR187 for example with all the broken audio stuff and all it`s bugs, you didn`t make a refund, you just said to yourself "OK! I see in the forums they are aware of it and they fix it". Those promises are now nearly two years old. Same applies to the Rush Hour pack, I don`t remember which of the routes still does not have the rush hour feature, but people bought a pack with promised features and they still don`t have it for two years now. Many people "sucked" TSW3, now one year later we have to suck TSW4 and buy us not only into new content but also in future updates. Which exactly is like a subscription model, just not named "subscription". And here is where the problems begin, promises over promises have been made. I do absolutely understand the technical reasons of why their will be no fixes for this and that for TSW2, I do get it. I even get the Y for TSW3. The problem is now that DTG decided to give us TSW4. And for many people here a point is reached where it is just enough. As said above - YES I did make a preorder already, but I still do complain for other people and also for myself, because I do really enjoy this Simulator but I would like to enjoy it even more with more fixes and even more features. Also the selling points of TSW4 besides the Editor are really low this time. New physics sim? Oh yes, but only later. Let`s see where this feature ends.
DTG never really had any intention of delivering pres col updates to TSW2, they were never coming, just like the "planned" updates to TSW3, they will never come
Business 101: Businesses exist to make money: Business 102: Businesses do not exist to give products away Business 103: When businesses do give products away, it is only as a tool to make money elsewhere. Classic old-fashioned example, "Open a checking account and get a free toaster." Most obvious and crassest modern example is "free to play" games which make profits on microtransactions. Slightly less obvious, games like GTA Online which continually puts out free updates- but makes money from XBox and Playstation Live for every single user that logs in. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. The TSC business model was not designed to give away free annual updates out of a sense of kindness and generosity, but to facilitate continued sales of route and loco DLCs. This was also the original TSW sales model, but obviously that changed. The reasons why are buried in DTG's books, which we can't see, but probably has to do with the much higher production costs of TSW content and therefore narrower margins. So- nobody is entitled to a free "update" or "new game" or whatever you want to call it. If you bought TSW2, you still have TSW2 and can continue to play it. Same with 3. Same with 2020. Same with that 1970s Gillette Trac 2 razor- just don't expect Gillette to keep coming up with new, improved blades for it, and don't demand that Fusion Proglide blades fit it.
But your entire premise is wrong. There was no snowball of patches to be backported to TSW2. They never stated or presumably intended to give TSW2 more patches than those that had been promised in the roadmap.
The problem is that they had patches that they thought pretty much worked for both TSW2 and 3 (maybe with small differences) but when those patches were released in TSW3 they found out that some of those had unintended consequences. Since TSW3 is at that point the main development branch, new patches are made for it first. And this is where the snowball builds up. Patches from TSW3 that need to be backported to TSW2. Of course DTG could just release the original TSW2 patches, but they know those are going to be trouble because they learnt that with the TSW3 release. And again, this is exactly what DTG said. That releasing the old TSW2 patches would cause more issues than doing nothing. From my point of view, everything DTG said about this looks like the truth.
So are we just going to pretend the ‘we’re just waiting for a release slot’ hoopla never happened? I don’t recall them ever saying there was a problem with the TSW2 patches. IIRC they said they were done and ready to go pending a release slot. I didn’t believe it the first time they said it, and I don’t believe it now.
Great novel you had there, but that does not change the fact that the current model is a horrible, incosistent, anti-consumer one. I, as a customer, don't care about DTGs bottom line. All I see is an endless series of unfinished, rushed releases, false promises, intentional liesand shady sales tactics. If the original concept of free core updates can't keep them afloat, then they must be doing something wrong, because plenty of other studios operate this way. Bur if required, I would be happy to pay more per add-on if that finally meant we get properly polished and finished releases. But the current offer is unfinished products rushed to deadline, then patches coming a year later for the next game release, locked pehind pehind a pay. There is literally no reason to buy anything at launch. Worst sales tactics ever.
Looks like it. Some people will blindly follow DTG whatever they say, despite them saying something completely opposing a year ago.
Let`s not forget that the overall release quality for new routes (besides Niddertalbahn) with TSW3 has not improved but was worse then new Routes for TSW or TSW2. So the quality has dropped significantly since the release of TSW3.
You can whine and call it "horrible" and "anti-consumer" all you like, but at the end of the day you aren't owed free anything.
It is not always that easy to know what you have and what you dont. You can easily have several patches that compile but do not do what you expect them to do. Also you can have a TSW3 patch that works. You apply it to TSW2 and compiles. Seems to be fine. Later the betatesters try the build and find that in TSW2 it causes another problem .... They probably were finding this kind of issues while trying the Release Candidate builds.
Neither is DTG. How many times should I pay for the same game? Why should I pay to recieve a goddamn patch to content I already paid for? The answer is, I shouldn't. So I won't.
No, just owed the product and/or service that was already paid for, promised, and never delivered, without an additional fee and another IOU down the line.
Because it costs DTG money to do those things. You apparently expect them to pay devs to do work and then hand you the product of that work for nothing.
Single example, Peak Forest. I bought it, contributed to the feedback thread, made an EP for it that fixed a number of the problems with the route (which included really really basic stuff like textures being completely over-exposed), and waited patiently for the post-release patch that we were told was forthcoming. That ‘post-release patch’ (their words, not mine) is now behind the TSW4 paywall. Fair, or not?
You have exactly the same Peak Forest which you received on the day you paid for it. (Over-exposure is in the eye of the beholder and certainly doesn't count as a "bug"). DTG have not taken anything away from you, not least any supposed entitlement to possible future alterations.
What tells us better Q&A and more attention to some details would bringt DTG better reputation, more money and no need of going back and forth between the last releases where they gave us bugged and flawed routes with sometimes major and gamebreaking problems. So in this logic for example everyone who bought No Man`s Sky should have paid money for the patches that had been released after the bugged first release and have no right to enjoy the fixed and advanced version of the game? Why is Elite Dangerous core game getting updates when you don`t own the add-ons? Why is Paradox updating their Grand Strategy Games cores and you even benefit if you don`t own all add-ons? Why is this normal for all other games but not for TSW? I don`t get your arguments here. I buy DLC / Add-On X it is bugged but to get what I paid for (and regulary my intention is not to buy broken games) I have to pay again? Logic? When my new car is broken I have to pay the service to fix it?
For one thing, a bunch of fixes to broken TSW2 content that were definitely coming as long as I upgraded to TSW3. I'd have, in hindsight, been better off not buying TSW3 and waiting, since none of these fixes are ever likely to materialise for TSW3, and might not even show up until TSW5 which I am now more wisely waiting for.
Making routes cheaper wouldn't help their business. TSW isn't and never will be a huge blockbuster game. The exception in the simulation gaming space would be MSFS where it had such a shockingly good look that it made the leap to something of a AAA title. Anyhow, with TSW's small user base each individual must pay more for content to keep profits viable for the company. It's just a reality of business.
My man, have you never heard of post release support or bugfix patches? You know, it kind of is a thing in software development. It's something that is calculated into the price of software products. It's not free, it's an investment from the developer to gain the trust of the customers. Not that hard of a concept to grasp.
There is literally no logic in what he’s saying, it’s borderline bizarre. FWIW the overexposure of certain assets was very much a bug, most likely with the way that asset was lit in the game. As we can’t change that the only recourse was to darken the textures themselves.
It is a SALES TACTIC. Got it? Those software studios that do it do so in order to make money. The "free" upgrade is designed to increase sales of paid content. What it is NOT is some sort of "consumer right." Now, you could make the argument that tossing in a "free" upgrade or spending money on post-release patches are a more enlightened or clever or profitable way to go about it. Perhaps it is. Perhaps it isn't. Personally I think DTG should have tossed in a "free" core upgrade with a sixty-quid route bundle (This way to the egress....) However, it is certainly the case that when you do as little sales volume as DTG, then marginal profitability looms very large; they can't play the Rockstar or even SCS game of working loss leaders - and, yes, every patch is a loss leader - and pray it comes out in the black.
If that’s the case, care to explain how they’re selling £90 worth of routes for £30? Either that’s a massive loss-leader, or they’re ripping us all off and they could actually afford to be selling these DLC at £10 each normally. Are we also to assume that all these time consuming new ‘features’ that come with TSW4 being bundled in for ‘free’ is not a loss-leader too? Or are you paying £30 for the ‘features’ and getting the routes for free? Either way, it’s still a ginormous loss-leader. See what I mean? There’s literally zero logic to what you’re saying.
LOL but was there ever any logic to anything this one has ever said? You can't inject logic into die hard fanboys.
Not true, specifically as regards bug fixes rather than improvements. “Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, digital content should be of a satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described." https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/c...-tv/problem-with-an-app-software-or-download/
See, you do understand after all! So why is not DTG doing it? Are they happy wirh such low popularity? Because with this poor quality control and anti-consumer mindset they are never going to grow properly. You need to invest before you grow and reap the rewards, but DTG just don't seem to be trying. Thos results in the game barely holding afloat (just like you said, low sales), yet alone growing and improving. Just look around anywhere outside the forums, DTG's popularity is horrible. The only worse must be Trainz, but they are getting closer and closer with these tactics.
Sales tactic could also be to prove it is worth to throw money at you. Back in the day of TSW2 I bought every new content, if I was interested in playing it or not was secondary. Why? Because I wanted to give DTG success to move on and make a better game. More money and success hopefully meant better routes and core features that interested me in the future. Since TSW3 release they let me down, so I stopped this and nowadays I will only buy stuff which I`m interested in. I will also never again buy anything from Rivet Games after I bought the Arosa Line back in the day. Those where the times where I still "hoped" for fixes. Now if a route is bugged I give it back and may return to it after fixes in a sale. Genius sales tactics from DTG! Jupp doesn`t make sense, for example DRA is the most "living" german route in TSW, it got a free extension, is now getting a rework with TOD4 etc. The route was part of rush hour, same price, three routes. So from that perspective it must have been a low budget route, but it wasn`t.
And plenty of TSW content does fail at this. Just look at LIRR and how it is advertised as "the busiest railway in America". Sure, I love experiencing the hustle and bustle of the big apple by seeing one train per hour on a four track mainline...
I’ll take your bug-fixes and raise you ‘working GSM-R’ on Midland Mainline. By ‘working’ they must have meant ‘doesn’t even turn on’. If ‘as described’ is enshrined in law (which it is) then TSW has been on the wrong side of it since day 1.
Your failures of comprehension are not due to any failure of logic on my part. And if you were to go back over my ten thousand-odd posts in here, you would see that I am anything but a "die-hard fanboy." What I am is someone with limited tolerance for whiny children who expect Free Candy- or complain that when they get it it's the wrong flavor. It is perfectly logical, at least to those whose brains operate in any mode beyond one-zero. DTG obviously uses lo9ss leaders- duh. However they cannot afford to use them as lavishly as those companies you would like them to emulate.
That is simply nonsensical. Hello Games have the right to use whatever marketing strategy they please- as do DTG. There is no question of "rights" at all.
Interesting approach, a computer runs only by logic but uses only ones and zeros. The buisness pratice which is standard for most in the gaming branch is nonsensical...aha
And want to bet which game and dev studio has a better popularity (therefore more sales)? I wonder if it's the one that actually fixes their content..?
Oh we all understand your level of intellect and maturity with posts like these. Anyhow, have a nice day!
Or the one who makes a game for the space exploration market as opposed to the train-driving market.......
