Tsw 3 - An Insult To The Tsw Community

I don't have to re-buy DCS world every few years to get base game updates and access to future content.
That's the problem.
It's s not having to paying for the new lines.
It's that all future content is now locked behind a 59 dollar pay wall.

I bought the game in July thinking I had a year or so of updates and content. What company announces new games 3 weeks before launch. Tsw2 is a unfinished game

They could have just updated base game with the new features and sold the new lines separately.
Like how every other company that uses dlc as the bases of their business model does it.

 

The problem is that I have absolutely no faith that in two years' time you won't show up with another new feature that means we alll have to buy TSW4.

 

And yet many software houses DO sell major updates as separate releases. I'm sure whoever makes DCS world makes their money from somewhere

"Future content"... Depends on how you define that. There won't be much "future content" for TSW2 as that product will be retired. All new TSW3 content will be on that game. This has been true for almost the entire lifetime of sims. Can't seem to find the flight sim content from the 90s that works in MSFS...

You thought wrong

Won't disagree here. Many of the DLC aren't polished, the game isn't optimized etc etc.

Such as. What other games companies have ZERO content in the core game and all content in the DLC who then don't charge for DLC bundles along with updated content. The only difference here is the new base software revision won't be compatible with old DLC, but then you're getting ALL your DLC upgraded for free anyway, so you're actually paying for the new DLC bundle and a small amount for the core game (which will work without ever having needed to buy the old one)

 

What would be the problem with that?
Presuming TSW4 has some feature that TSW3 doesn't?
My old TV didn't do 4k, my new one does. Shows the same programs, in colour, with sound... Why should I have to pay for something that does more or in a different way to what the old one did??

 

Well for starters, it would mean that DTG would be consistently lying...

 

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/members/purno.4978/ignore

fixes the dynamic brake on the Cajon Pass for you

 

Well, it sort of is, if one wants to continue with this hobby- since any future new route that does interest one will only be playable under TSW3, not 2. There won't be any more TSW2 DLC.

 

DTG have never ruled out producing new content or new versions of TSW

 

It is not unusual to expect a mature product to get continual support updates. 2 years is quite young even, and it's quite relative. You mention live service and I don't think this model applies here, but there has been wholesale shift in gaming towards live service so that might be why.

I see a lot of disappointment and concern about older titles being abandoned, especailly when people invest in them with some expectancy that will be supported. Which is why you see players feeling burnt by having spent a lot on DLC and not seeing updates to address issues raised by the community.

For me TSW2 ended on a high point with two great DLC (SoS and IOW22), so I don't feel bad about being a late adopter.

I did wonder why there were so many iterations of TSC before deciding on TSW2. It was very confusing. Now I know what to expect from TSW3. It might have a shelf life of 2 years before another major update and that is acceptable to me, but it might not be to someone else. I also accept that train sim is just too niche to finance longer development cycle, and caveat emptor strongly applies to all DLC purchases. (For example IOW 483 and 1938 I won't buy because the audio is just appalling, and there likely is no money to be made from fixing the audio, since most players who would buy it already own it).

 

There are many other ways to enjoy the hobby, so the only reason to buy TSW3 is if you want to continue to get the TSW DLC...
You can obviously enjoy what we have now ad nauseum

 

At least on first impression, TSW3 looks like a decent bargain. There's a lot to like in the core updates and the routes look very good.
But the price grid is not well thought out. I own SEHS and SOS, but to get the US and German routes, I have to buy either the Standard or Deluxe editions which forces me to " repurchase " routes I already own. There's only a $5 difference between the two versions, so I'll probably go for the Deluxe to get the early access. At least, this is how I'm reading it.

Have you read the FAQ article? Now, I've had a lot of education in good schools, but it reads like the literary equivalent of a Rube Goldberg machine ( you Brits can sub Heath Robinson here ). Totally confusing.
I hope the streams and upcoming articles will clarify some things, like: will I have to manually redownload all my current ( TSW2 ) content? A monumental task!!

DTG can make a train simulator and do it well, most of the time. But write clearly and succinctly? No-one in Chatham seems vey familiar with the English language.

There are some things which should be in this new game but are not,
like a workable save function, a decent interactive map like the one in TSC and a public editor.

And I will reserve judgement on the new UI, which looks, at first glance, to be no less messy than the current iteration. Why can't DTG get this aspect of the game right?

All in all, though, a game worth buying and I'll probably pre-order, barring any negative surprises in the streams.

Oh, about that reveal stream? Unwatchable for me, but well worth a listen.

 

That part, at least, is untrue; the Preservation Crew updates will come out for both V2 and V3.

 

The difference is that TSC was only ever renumbered to include the current (or upcoming) year. They didn't add much to the game itself. The different years also included bundled DLC so to get the right DLC you had to buy the right bundle and THAT got annoying in the end... At least now they won't be doing that (from what I've seen)

TSW has moved away from that model, but it also has pres crew, QA testing, Beta testing, console compatibility etc so it's a different beast!

Those are also made by Rivet Games as a 3rd party rather than DTG.

 

You shouldn't have to "manually" download your TSW3 content.
When they went from TSW2020 to TSW2 all digital licenses were honoured pretty much straight away and the relevant store output that content without user intervention

There was some wrangling with people who owned special editions and "CD" copies (ie physical disk copies) so digital licenses had to be issued by DTG, so hopefully someone's remembered that and thought ahead how to do it now.

Either way, hopefully it will be smoother than the TSW2 launch for those who bought their TSW non-digitally

 

So what, DLC sales mean nothing. Modders already introduced lighting and thunderstorms via free mods. There was already a mod to improve station lighting for instance. These features aren't major. They were basic expectations that should have been in the game years ago. For $50, that is nothing but greed for those who don't have Xbox game pass

 

Tell me, what ten features have DTG actually promised us? And, no, I don't mean desired features which users have just been banging on about like a 5-year-old demanding a pony for Christmas. For all the user-generated noise about multiplayer, VR yadda yadda, DTG have never said or even suggested that they are coming.

 

It would be interesting to know what the "Unhappy" people paid for the game. As the TSW franchise seems one of the most discounted games I have ever seen. I have it on PS5, which cost me £5, and on PC, where it cost me £2.99. Whichever way you look at it, that's great value. Certain aspects of the game could be better, we can all agree on that, but some of the whiners on here need to get over themselves.
All the routes I have purchased are not disappearing. DTG are not taking those away from me. They will still be playable whether I decide to purchase TSW3 or not.
Future content is not locked behind a paywall, because the future content will be for TSW3, a different game.

You have a choice. It seems some cannot grasp that simple concept.

 

And unlike other games, DTG will update and upgrade those older routes in due course with new features as they're developed... RushHour passengers being one example

 

When I hear one trick pony, I think it points to if the german high speed line is actually a full line route or a portion of a longer speed line. Im not even sure if it is a full line route but someone here probably knows

 

"One trick pony" to me means "It only does one thing"
Ie the German route has ICE-1 and ICE-3 both doing lots of speed and not stopping much

Of course it also has the freights which run later and do a lot more interesting stuff, but still

And US freight does seem to be 25mph yawn fest to some (like me), but even then this new route seems to have some high speed, but not sure about "other things to do" like shunting, setup mechanics etc etc

 

I think what alot tend to forget is what happened with rush hour. You had the option to buy the bundle (for a limited time) or buy the routes you were interested in separately. It was a fantastic idea and DTG said they did this to give players options and flexibility if they weren't interested in one of the rush hour routes and wanted one specific route so I wonder why DTG haven't reintroduced this option for players who may not be interesting in one of the tsw 3 routes considering that it was well received

 

They have gone halfway, and I wonder if the DLC will also be available as a separate purchase (so if you only wanted the US and DE route but not SEHS you could do it that way)
Maybe a question for the roadmap?

 

Might also be worth noting that every single release to this point included Sand Patch Grade, which itself made up the original CSX Heavy Haul game. This is the first one that includes a different pre-existing route, and I believe it's also the first time that route was substantially upgraded for the new release.

 

Yup, though of course anyone who had TSW1 on PC have had that route for years...

 

Absolutely. I feel like I'm being penalized because I am interested in both El Cajon and the German route, but not in a slightly bigger SEHS.

 

so... they have separated loco's / trains from routes with this training center thing.

This means that future route DLC's no longer need a dozen loco's / trains creating for them like is done for TSW2??

so will the route DLC's become cheaper due to this?




Of course it will then become more like TSC, where to run a DLC it will have a long list of other DLC's for all the trains that you need to own to make it work, so more likely to cost way more in reality?

 

Actually quite a lot was added to the game over the years. The Train Simulator Classic of today has a lot more features than the Railworks of 2009.

 

I've been playing since 2016 and the only new feature I've seen is 64 bit

 

64-bit would have been a big enough feature for a paid TSW release, it seems. Besides, most of the new features were added before 2016.

 

Not sure where you're getting that
If they did the WCML via Birmingham they'd still need 15 new trains to populate it properly as those trains don't exist in game. The only advantage right now is that if you get the 465 and have it as AI on BML you don't need to own SEHS for it to work
Same for the BR101. You won't need the base route to run it on any other routes.

 

Well, DTG have a choice to make. If they create a system that doesn't represent value, the pool of paying players will shrink and the business becomes unsustainable. I doubt they'd look to go in that direction, as I'm sure they'd rather increase the pool of players (although of course business realities ultimately set the minimum level of income they need in order to be sustainable).

But I think it's fair at this point to expect a new TSW iteration every 2-3 years based on the journey so far. It's up to individuals to decide whether they have what they want in an existing game or if they want to move over to the new game; and if so, whether that represents good value or not.

 

Not really. Unless DTG releases a 'base pack' which includes trains suitable for all routes (which is impossible), any route DLC would need at least one train to make it playable. After all, you can't expect everyone to have a huge collection of rolling stock when they buy a DLC.

It is however possible that routes come with recycled rolling stock. Like Electrostars, Dostos, Talent 2s and SD40-2s.

Considering TSC DLC has the same price tag as TSW DLC, I suspect DTG pretty much found the sweet spot of what people are willing to spend on a DLC. If they save resources on creating new trains, it'll likely be spent elsewhere, such as a longer route for example

That's not how TSC works. Any route DLC for TSC comes with a selection of trains needed to be able to play that route, although frequently it's recycled rolling stock.

Uncoupling loco DLC from route DLC shouldn't have any negative side effects.

 

Exactly this. What I consider "value" others may not. Unfortunately on a flat text internet forum people's discussions may get a bit "lost in translation"

 

How many DTG TSC routes have required you to have to own extra stock to run the scenarios in each route? I can't think of any going back to 2008!

 

Yes you are right, but you see that DCS took a long journey beginning with Lock-On in 2003? When Black Shark arrived and Black Shark 2.0 came along you had to pay for Black Shark 2.0. Same was with Flamming Cliffs, Flamming Cliffs 2.0 and Flamming Cliffs 3.0. Always the same content, just updated, remember that? But you had to pay, it was no free upgrade for FC2.0 owners or so. Nowadays DCS does have a huge player base, and a simulator which evolved over the last 19 years! TSW has to go a long way to be 19 years old and I assume that will never happen with TSW (Insert Number here).

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE DCS and I LOVE the way how they do things! They have standards for Add-ons, they even kick developers out if they can not deliver to the DCS standards (greeting from the Hawk), they update the core and so on. But be sure the number of players of DCS are much bigger and when you compare the DCS journey with TSW, as said above...a long, long way to go!

And to go that way and give us a better experience we have to spend money at some point, because they can not work for free.

What DTG could learn from DCS is having better support for bugfixes etc. as I mentioned in my original posting. And as said before, I'm far more concerned about not getting updates and finished products of my DLC (routes) content.

 

May well have been, but following that same logic it's like the "2022 DTG" would have migrated away from DX9 as an engine, thus allowing upgrades to the engine, route, graphics etc which aren't possible in TSC. We would also have the pres crew implementing new tech in old routes and helping one man band developers put out decent content rather than St Ives on the old IoW
Lots has changed indeed

 

The DTG scenarios usually only use the "boxed DLC" from what I've seen (and I own all UK content up to 2020 on TSC)
AP on the other hand...

 

Anyone remember when Sonic was released
Then we got sonic 2, a map pack with tails
Then sonic 3 a map pack with knuckles.

Were any of these moany goats around then or still in the sack?

I really don't get how many people are moaning about a brand new updated experience. Why does everyone think they are entitled to something for free?

DTG's only committment to TSW2 owners is to sweep it up to a usable state with what each thing had promised at launch.

TSW3 - that's their game currently, you choose in September if you want to be part of it.

 

Yep, I remember having to pay for Super Mario 2, and 3, and world, and Kart, and Donkey Kong...
Then again I think I'm officially "middle aged" so

 

That's more the Armstrong Powerhouse approach

 

I agree with your main point about nothing being promised, but you have to admit that you, yourself, are part of that group of " 5-year-olds ", as am I and many respected forum members.

 

The difference is, I understand that my requests are just that; I am not so delusional as to mentally convert them into imaginary "promises" by DTG.

And, hey, they did listen to my suggestion/request/whatever for bringing the Academy over from TSC, and using it as the de-facto "depot" for all loco DLCs.

 

Do NOT disagree with your main point. But I want to say just for clarity, the cheapest pack is $40/€35/£30 if you are only interested in the core upgrade and not the launch routes.

 

"Standard" is enough to get 4 days early access.

 

Not really the same though. What if a person for instance buys the german starter pack but owns the other German routes in that pace for instance. They would essentially buy the same route again. When rush hour finally came out for instance, I was only interested in London Commuter because of the issues with the other two routes. (Didn't end up getting it in the end due to the performance issues) but I think this strategy just penalizes players who already own previous routes and may not be interested in one of the routes. They implemented a good pricing plan with rush hour in my view by separating the routes and giving players options. Not sure why they ditched that idea

Also and quote me if I am wrong, I believe it was said that not all the tsw2 routes will receive the tsw3 goodies at launch and may have to be added by the preservation crew. We all know how long those updates take

But essentially charging players basically for a training center which is similar to the TS academy in TSC (Im surprised no similar feature was introduced in tsw till now) and DTG's poor design choices (self inflicted mind you) will make some not pleased and not think it is justified but hey opinions may vary.

I think the better option would have been to at least separate these routes as separate DLC like they did last year and then add the bundle as an option in my view. Or give existing players a much larger discount and not a $3 one

Since I have gamepass, (Yearly subscription renewed a week ago) I'll essentially be getting this game for free but I will not buy this game to own unless it's on a hefty sale. The TSW 2 base game had many sales om Xbox so I suspect it will be a similar thing for this base game.

I just think the pricing could've been done better because the reasoning behind it doesn't seem justified in my opinion

 

It would seem that 80% of posters on this forum didn't watch the whole announcement stream.
I haven't seen a player base so informed, yet negative in a gaming forum.
It's quite cringing to read in many cases.

 

I don't entirely share your confidence that Rush Hour passengers and other features will appear in the older routes like BML, for which RH was actually promised.
I tend to agree with people who think that TSW2 and its routes will be quietly laid to rest as far as upgrades are concerned after a decent interval following September 6.

 

Well they've got the passenger differentiation, just not the sheer weight of numbers
And of course everyone gets off when you open the doors anyway, but that's a different matter

 

I couldn't agree more. JD and Matt did a bloody good programme about this and showed off some really decent features. It feels like some people are moaning because they've heard there is a tsw3 but not actually done more than two hyperventilations of due diligence before whinging (yes some are informed with valid concerns too).

 

They have also indirectly killed off TSW2 as of right now. Despite my grumbles I know at some point, probably in the Xmas sale, I will fold and buy into TSW3. However if my progress in Journey mode for the legacy routes doesn’t carry over then there’s no point in doing anything else in TSW2 effectively from now. Other than keeping the game and DLC on there for authentication when transferring the content, might as well uninstall it. TSW2 is now as “ex” as Monty Python’s eponymous parrot.