Tsw 3 - An Insult To The Tsw Community

When have DTG ever barred customers from buying DLC for TS Classic or its predecessors?

Cheers

 

I do like your points you aren't wrong, since the mid ninties all sports game set this precedent to begin with.

But on the otherhand I also work for the evil EA, in HR mind you so watch out. LOL

 

You’re right. I wasn’t clear there, I meant the annual upgrade is, and always has been, a thing. It’s only since TSW came along that they package it as a new game every once in a while. The way I see it;

- TSW CSX:HH to TSW2020 - not new
- TSW2020 to TSW2 - new
- TSW2 - TSW3 - not new

That is excluding the half way houses like rush hour.

 

Oooft, HR

Yes Sir, I’ll be quiet now Sir

 

It’s largely irrelevant if it’s a new game or not. DTG need to pay their staff for these new features and therefore you can call it what you like, new game or paid upgrade. If they left it at TSW2 they wouldn’t be able to charge and we wouldn’t get any further features.

Personally I don’t begrudge the price of the German Pack which is the route I want. It’s normal route price + a bit extra. In the discussions in the past about route length lots of people said they would pay more for longer routes, well now we have them and they cost a bit more. So for that small extra cost I also get the updated/new game.

While people are entitled to there opinions. I’m waiting to see what DTG actually deliver here. All we‘ve heard so far is the route list and the new features and a few screenshots.

Off topic - I also believe it’s pretty good value for what it costs v‘s the hours of entertainment I get out of it. One of my other hobbies is Lego. Their recent price increases make paying for TSW every couple of years seem like amazing value.

 

I’m in complete agreement. DTG can do what the heck they want and can charge whatever they see fit.

It’s up to us as individuals to decide whether or not it’s worth it or not to us. I like realism in my sim games and sadly TSW is not that thing. Lighting is, and always has been, the aspect of the game that has needed sorting out for me. There are many, but this is the biggest immersion breaker for me. Finally I figured they’ve listened to the overwhelming feedback and tackled it but no, they’ve ‘done a DTG’. They’ve taken the headline issue, then fixed the bit that no one was really complaining about whilst leaving the elephant in the room fat, dumb and happy in the corner. They then market it as ‘new lighting’ and all the gullible types are literally falling over themselves at the prospect. If you take a second to actually look at the in-game screenshots you can see virtually nothing has changed.

It’s the modern world we live in sadly. People have almost lost the ability to think critically, and far too many literally believe any old tosh they’re told by whatever medium that spouts it.

 

I’m sat here scratching my head…..

help me out here.

tsw2 you drive trains, tsw3 is a train game.
Tsw2 you have a service mode, tsw3 you’d likely have one.

How would you make a game about a trains a new game about trains?

 

As I understand it from a technical perspective, the introduction of a separate core game is necessary for the introduction of the Training Center(sic) to be the new core of the game (as opposed to various actual routes). As far as I can gather, that is the ultimate limiting factor as to why this could not be dropped in-place as a TSW2 update.

I will most likely buy TSW3 assuming that reviews are not DB BR 187 levels of negative, but not because I don't mind paying for an update. Actually, I am a little put off by the difference in attitude between this launch and TSW2's. The unacknowledged price hike is concerning and the lack of a Kassel/Cajon bundle is an obvious attempt to upsell existing SEHS owners into rebuying (excuse me, getting a free upgrade to) the route. I will probably buy TSW3 simply because I am interested in driving the new US/DE routes.

Cheers

 

See my post 4 above this one.

Did you play TS Classic? TSW was a new game. It’s easy if you think about it

 

I think the challenge DTG have is it’s their longer term player base who know all the problems with the game will realise this was an essential step to break locos from routes, and sort some of the issues.

The corner DTG backed themselves into was chasing their tail on a game that’s core was no longer fit for purpose, they needed a new foundation, you can’t market and sell that , cue three new routes and dynamic weather. There’s a lot under the hood that will add value that new players won’t care about as they may not know the legacy issues.

This was always going to be a hard sell based on the outstanding tsw2 issues. I think that’s why Matt and Jd had their fancy stream (which incidentally I thought was bloody good)

 

That’s like comparing outrun to Forza? They do and offer two different things. TSC 21 to 22 was same game with few extra bits in same way.

we’re comparing tsw2 to 3.

 

All good points. At the end of the day we might be debating semantics and we’ll make our own decisions. Looking at it critically I don’t believe TSW3 is a new game, and I’m a bit miffed it’s being sold as one but that is absolutely DTG’s right. You have to wonder though how many ‘do-overs’ do DTG get before people tire of it?

If other people wish to see it as a new game then you know what? Good for you, I genuinely hope it’s everything you wanted. I won’t be buying it now, and if I ever do it will certainly not be at full price.

 

You asked how you make a game about trains a new game about trains. Couldn’t really have a clearer example than that, and that’s what I was responding to.

 

The Emporer has new clothes again!

 

N3V have been getting away with this for years where Trainz is concerned. Emperors New Clothes indeed!

Guess we should be grateful DTG haven’t copied the other dubious practice of their Australian heroes and brought in a monthly subscription pay to play type arrangement.

 

Nope. For me the only real extension DTG have done is the sheerness branch on TSC because it doesn't run on it's own, and it needs the main DLC pack to operate in any way. The longer "larger version of the route" is a standalone larger route rather than an extension FOR ME

Of course, Value is in the eye of the beholder. Some cannot see the value of moving from TSW2 to TSW3. Programmatically and dev cycle wise it makes sense to move from one major revision to another occasionally. The question then reverts to whether the players (ie buyers) see the benefit of a PAID version upgrade, which is a different point

Some people seem to operate on the basis that DTG develop for the old consoles, holding back the development on the game. TSW is and always has been developed for PC FIRST and then cut back for the consoles, so yes the consoles take more work overall - as in much more restrictive memory practices requiring better optimisation requires more work to get it working, and license restrictions on MS and PS stores meaning you cannot put in a feature which knowingly breaks the game (such as memory dumping) means they have to be more careful on console than PC which often have greater physical memory and redundant virtual capacity as well... - but overall the game is developed for fast machines and then "pared back" so I don't see the argument of "well it runs on a potato, so it can't run well on a decent machine" as valid. The actual point is that it has never really been optimised and DLC have large holes in how they're built (and these have been acknowledged by DTG) so it's more a case of badly built rather than built for the lowest common denominator

Oh, they could have done. But the UI and core upgrades may have other consequences we don't know about, the largest of which would be the disassociation of the loco assets from the routes, which means the TSW3 DLC will likely be a different structure from the TSW2 ones (similar to how TSC ones are maybe) so there would possibly be all sorts of issues with having two versions of the DLC on the same game with different core structures.
In other words it may well be structurally required to have a separate version of the program to address the differences in the DLC and in effect DTG have bundled this up with new DLC to "soften the blow" perhaps?

 

Yep I was working on the assumption it won't increase, so we shall see

 

I have not seen any mention of what happens when you don't want any DLC included. Of course, with TS classic it was free. If you didn't upgrade, future DLC might not be compatible. Do we have to pay for future compatibility? Oh, and will future DLC be compatible with TSW2. Too many obvious questions are unanswered.

 

You don't, but that doesn't come with it's own consequences. If anybody thinks DTG is slow at implementing core features, then boy, they shouldn't ever get into DCS. It takes years for any core functionality to get released in initial state, and then it just stays there... some stuff doesn't get released at all. In general, the core dcs is in a very sorry state... the ATC is virtually non-functional, and while new one was in development years ago, it never got finished. No real work is put into stuff like ground AI, which is very basic, with superhuman aiming skills. There is no real damage model for ground units, blast and fragmentation modelling is very basic...etc.. Lots of stuff is basically in the same state is in was in FC 2.0... It is very similar story in air-air, with the sorry state of AI, and terrible, non-realistic, missile performance..

Also the fact that you don't have to pay for core updates causes that stuff that should, imho, be part of a core, is a DLC... like WW2 unit packs, or the supercarrier.

Also it forces the company to really exploit the DLCs game and push new modules as soon as possible, so they have a revenue stream. So you end up with stuff like the F-16 being released into EA without a damage model (which is for a combat sim pretty important). Also modules stay in EA forever and it takes years for the promised functionality to be implemented... because the team is juggling between several modules simultaneously in EA.

And you do pay for updates for modules. There is A-10C II, and ED has 3rd iteration of Black Shark in the works...

So yeah, while the DCS model is different, it isn't excatly bed of roses, and its ecosystem has atleast as many issues, as DTGs has. It's is no surprise that DCS get labeled as digital cockpit simulator

 

If you don't want the DLC only the functionality, buy the cheapest option
With TS Classic there weren't really "upgrades", they just changed the number and the splash screen. No real content or option updates
Yes, TSW will be the "compatible" version going forwards. I doubt many new DLC will be made for TSW2 from this point (confirmed by a 3rd party dev yesterday)

 

Translated as "I don't like what DTG have done and if you don't agree and purchase it you must be stupid"!

 

Your words, not mine, and a comment about a serious affliction of Western society in general, not TSW directly.

 

Well you must have thought it relevant to this discussion otherwise why mention it!

And, if it is an affliction it is an affliction to not just western society judging by the actions of certain countries in the east!

 

With the move toward taking the binding of rolling stock away from a particular route, to facilitate the training centre, will this mean that we will just get one base configuration for the stock, with various livery options? This would be the sensible option, allowing for bugs and updates to be made centrally, compared to the multiple versions of the same locomotive that we have in TSW2? (e.g Class 66; Dosto's; BR 143, etc.)

 

I mentioned it in the context of DTG saying ‘look at this new game’ and ‘we’ve redone the lighting from the ground up’ when in fact, objectively, in my opinion neither are true. I’d hope I’ve used facts (screenshots & past experience) to demonstrate why I’ve come to that conclusion. I have zero beef with people using the same to demonstrate why they believe I’m wrong. I do have a slight issue with people repeating the party line parrot fashion without thought. That is the context of me mentioning it.

The difference, I believe, between the West and the East is that those of us lucky enough to live in the free countries get to debate and disagree with what we’re told and with each other. Sadly those poor souls in certain Eastern countries generally don’t have that option. Even if something you’ve been told is clearly b*****ks (‘special military operation’ anyone?) there’s not a great deal you can do about it.

 

Difference is in the West people put up a TikTok video, people watch it and believe what that person is saying then spout it as truth. In the East some countries will tell their populace what to believe, and then shoot people who say otherwise.
It's very easy to see how both states come about, but there should always be MORE people saying "Hang on..."

An example is this. DTG say "We've rebuilt the lighting from the ground up", but we know that's not the whole picture. What they mean is "TSW3 specific DLC will operate with a new lighting system which we have built from scratch, but this will not apply to preserved TSW2 routes which will not use these new lighting features"
People who read the former without reading the wider context are likely to load up GWE on day one and say "Why does this still look like it used to when they have a new lighting system?". If they read the wider context they would know.
The problem on that one is that DTG don't write their output very well so need three or four attempts, often on different platforms, to say what they could have said properly the first time. It's an issue when writing PR pieces as explanations. They want all their buzzwords in there without including the content people need to know to have a full picture. But contrary to that people just say "TLDR" and look for the sound bite...

 

I think the only option for me will be the Cajun Pass option. I really enjoyed the challenge of this route in TSC, and still play that. So I may go for that option. I don't like the modern high-speed automated stuff. I presume you have to own the DLC for the UK route before you can get the extension ( another obvious but unanswered question ). Thanks for replying to me.

 

…and without wanting to sound like a broken record the major issues I have with it are;

1) They have looked at lighting but have not changed the draw distance which has been officially confirmed in another thread. The new lighting might look great, but it will stop acting on the environment at the same point meaning everything beyond that is simply oversaturated brightness.
2) When they say they have changed the lighting, when you delve a bit deeper into what they’ve actually redone it is nothing of any major consequence. It is mostly to do with time of day luminance (which did need looking at) and eye exposure. Big whoop.
3) As I’ve shown with TSW3 promotional screenshots in other threads the lighting actually looks very similar indeed to TSW2, and it looks awful.

But hey, DTG say it’s been rebuilt from the ground up so it must be true.

Edited to add, people have come back at me over this saying ‘adding shadows to the horizon will kill performance’. That is absolutely repeating parrot fashion what DTG say, and not taking a micro-second to think about whether or not it makes any sense. Let’s just pretend for a moment that this is a new game released in 2022, because that's what we’re told. How many other games can anyone think of where there is a point between the player and the horizon where environmental lighting just stops acting on objects? Whether it is shadows, or other developers using different techniques to achieve the same thing is not the point. Care to name any of other game that is like this, because I’m damned if I can think of any that I’ve ever played. TS Classic sure as hell isn’t like this and that’s a 12 year old (and more) DX9 game.

 

Yes, to get the SEHS in TSW3 you have to own a license for it, either by buying the TSW3 version outright (ie the standard or UK version of the TSW3 release) or you can get the TSW2 DLC which will automatically give you a TSW3 license for the new version (they're not carrying over the TSW2 version to TSW3, only the extended version will be available)

All other TSW2 content will automatically gain you a license for that DLC in TSW3 (so if you own Brighton Mainline (London Commuter) in TSW2 you will get a license for it also in TSW3)

 

I haven't had a chance to look at the lighting situation in depth but not going to query anything you've said...
One presumes whoever did the lighting would also have known about such things, but who knows?

You can rebuild something and it still be not much better than what went before it... I work in construction so I know this to be true

 

I keep seeing people mention this but I thought this was supposed to have been fixed with the rush hour update last year? In this stream Matt says at 57:35 the 'the distant point at which you see the shadow line drawing ahead of you is much harder to see'. He uses these two screenshots to demonstrate the improvement, the first picture being the old draw distance and the second the new:




As a gen 8 player which these improvements did not apply to I can't comment on if this actually made any tangible difference.

 

If you were sat in a train I’d say the shadow stops, what, 50% of the way to the horizon in your second screenshot. Nothing beyond that point casts a shadow.

It’s never been all about shadows though. It’s the fact that in this game the point at which they stop drawing is the point at which everything is just nuclear fusion levels of bright. Admittedly this screenshot doesn’t highlight that particularly well but we all know it’s the case. It’s much worse at certain times of day so perhaps you got a good one here.

This the phenomenon I'm talking about. In these images you can literally see where the environmental lighting just stops, and this same exact thing is evident in the screenshots for TSW3

 

I don't get that Sam. It is announced that we get a TWS3 copy of all existing content. So what is the issue? It will run in combination with the training centre.

The new content and features look great, but:

- Loosing most of the progress and starting over sucks.
- The revokes save function makes it a no go for a lot of gameplay
- No pre-launch discount on the standard edition is bashing of the players who payed the full price for spirit of steam
- Supporting two game versions for some time is very confusing and a bad idea
Therefore I agree with the title of this thread.

Even if you have to start it all over again, why not give everyone a free upgrade for core and previously purchased DLC? These ask the same price as intended for the route bundles and you are almost OK. You can abandon TSW2 right away and save a lot in testing effort (testing is still a weak point) and the need to support two versions.

 

Meanwhile, this is how modern games should look. No culling anywhere of the lighting system. But for the lower poly assets that you see in Train Sim Classic, this is also essentially how that looks.

 

Train Sim World 2 or 3 couldn't look like this with a gun to it's head, and I firmly believe this is why so often TSW gets accused of lacking in atmosphere. That shot of the Forth Bridge is oozing atmosphere and TSW simply cannot do that, except perhaps when GWE first came out. The 'Christmas Closures' scenario looked amazing back then.

I've also been intrigued how the textures and general look of such an old game as TSC and a new modern game like FS2020 look so similar, and why TSW looks so plastic, lacking in detail and cartoon like by comparison. Is it just that UE is actually a garbage game engine that is great at promo videos but useless in the gaming sphere, or is it that DTG just aren't using it as intended? Either way, something just isn't right.

 

The "training centre" is a misnomer for the actual issue, which is the dissociation of the loco assets from the routes.
In TSW2 the locos are in the same place as the routes, so when loading a loco the game says "what route do I need to load", "Does it exist?" and then "what loco do I need to load", "Does it exist"
In TSW3 the first two parts are written out, I presume this would mean a change to all DLC file structures and instruction sets to point to the new way of working
That they've maybe put them in a separate route called "training centre" (if that's how they've done it) is kind of a snazzy front end, but the back end changes would be why everything will need to be different. The game needs to look in a different place for it's assets

They're giving you free "previously purchased DLC". All routes will carry over either "as they are" or in new versions for SEHS and SoS

 

Yes, because Dovetail has never neglected core mechanics or pushed out unfinished DLC...

TSC had plenty of genuine core upgrades over the years.

 

None of the pics you've provided are equivalent. You would need to show a line of shadow for say half a mile where no cut out of rendered shadow is visible. All the "lines of sight" have a finite end in the MSFS pictures you put as examples other than the night time vista one, which does show very good light casting on the ground (even though the sky could do with some work)

The TSC ones are very good examples, but you CAN see the cut off of detail (even if it's much more than you get in TSW)

Not saying TSW is great, but definitely not the best examples in MSFS

 

Since I've played it (2015) the only major feature upgrade has been 64bit.
They've tinkered with the front end but nothing much else I can remember

 

I'm perhaps wrong using the word 'shadows' then, maybe we should be talking about the culling of the environmental lighting system. There is a depth of field in those games that does not exist in TSW. I don't know, because I'm not a game developer, but it looks very much like there are other techniques in play here other than simply drawing highly detailed shadows to the vanishing point.

I think this highlights it nicely...



You can see shadows along the shoreline (which is well over half a mile away) but it's how the lighting interacts with the distant scenery that I'm getting at. It doesn't matter the time of day, the weather or the scenery, this engine looks natural. It's never 100% correct all the time by it's not far off. It's very easy to miss the snow covered peak in the background but it looks amazing. Compare that to the distant scenery in TSW and it's laughable.

ps Best not mention the water…

 

Oh I don't doubt that, the question then becomes how much dev time, CPU and GPU time do people want spent on making sure light at 1500 yards looks right, compared to whether the dials are the right colour. In a perfect world both would. DTG ain't perfect

 

64-bit would have been a paid upgrade if TSC was TSW...
And a lot of the big updates predated 2015.

 

So in the last seven years there have been no major updates to TSC other than 64 bit, which didn't add any new features, only allowed for larger routes in memory (above 2Gb if I remember correctly)

 

Well, considering that games like Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order, or Gears 5 use Unreal Engine, I'm eager to bet it is not the engine capabilities.

Unreal Engine is a great tool, but it is a tool, not a magic wand (for this reason in kinda amazes me that some people think all TSW graphical deficiencies wiil be fixed by new UE version). It is also a very complicated tool, and doing materials and lightning in modern engine, like UE, is much more complicated than people realize. But you cannot do the kind of stuff you can in modern engine with PBR, in classic dx9 engines, like TSClassic... The problem is that if you do it wrong, then even the basic stuff will look wrong.

 

I get the point but as I’ve said, I’m really struggling to think of another game where the development team don’t think it worth the time. It doesn’t need to be mega detailed, it just needs to fade correctly and appear like there is depth to the image. They did it in TSC, why not TSW?

Driving at dawn or dusk where 50% of your image is dark and 50% of it is screaming bright light is just beyond what I’m prepared to spend money on. That’s essentially what it boils down to.

 

For me, the problem is simple: value for money. TSW2 cost under £25 and included 3 new routes (one I wouldn't have bought otherwise, one I wanted, and one I really wanted). By contrast, the cheapest offer available for TSW3 gets me one new route for £30 (i.e. more than a route normally costs), where one of the new routes I would never buy separately and the other would be a maybe later, if it's heavily discounted.

They're asking for more and giving a lot less. Unless that changes, I'm not interested.

 

That works out as one full price DLC and a fiver for the core upgrade
All other options give discounted DLC and the core for free (using £25 as a DLC price)

 

That would be fine if you were gagging for the particular route, but when it's a choice of German high speed of low interest value or Cajon which has little value without a saved game, then not so. I certainly wouldn't pay £25 for either in TSW2 anyway, but wait for £14.99 or less in a sale. Or ergo if both the actual new routes were bundled for £30 along with the core, might be tempted.

 

price ≠ value

 

This. And the fact it never worked properly on TSW2 (and the original TSW) means that, in my limited time, I don't play TSW2 currently, unless I ever happen to have some mythical Me Time again for at least 2 solid hours

In my "Spirit of Save" post, DTG JD kindly directed me to the development roadmap post that mentioned its removal from TSW3. Unfortunately that just solidified my decision not to upgrade to TSW3 yet. Like I said in my post, it's indeed good to see the save issues being addressed in words these days, after so much silence, but I need to start seeing actual, good results before I hand over any more money. Sadly, removing the feature entirely makes some kind of sense, but it also suggests you can gradually sweep it under the rug again and newcomers to TSW won't even know any different... I hope, of course, that doesn't prove true.

I do believe TrainSim-Matt takes the save game function very seriously, because he got the testing underway immediately after a few of us raised the issue again in these forums. I just ask to not let it fall off the radar again, to definitely get it working because it's absolutely possible, and get it working across all routes (even if it takes some months).

As I said, with routes getting longer, our available free time isn't. That was a main point I wanted to make in my Spirit of Save post (and I would have made the same point if I had already seen the roadmap update), because the need for a save function was misrepresented in one of the streams as "it gets boring to sit for long periods", and that isn't the primary reason. The key reason why it must have a functioning save game is the same as why every other game out there has one nowadays: because most people don't have defined periods of time they can dedicate to playing a game without interruption, etc.

I see accusations of bringing flaming torches and pitchforks, but it isn't that at all. If something doesn't work that's supposed to (and especially when it has been ignored for so long), the developer has to be called out on it.

I work in quality management system implementation and management, and customer complaints are no bad thing. If taken in the right way, they effect positive change. Continuous improvement.

So, yes, save game is something I am keeping a keen watch on now, because I do like the look of where TSW is going as a series, with the training centre, improved skies, etc. I really want to invest, bringing along my already owned DLC with it, just not yet...