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Tsw Instructions Are Too Strict - Give Us More Flexibility!

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    As the title suggests, I find the instructions in TSW far too strict and limiting in my opinion.

    An issue I had yesterday is that I closed the doors 0.5 seconds too early (yes, I’m not exaggerating!) and because of this, the instruction would not complete. I closed the doors early to enable a right time departure.

    So what happened is that the game forced me to open and close the doors again, which made me loose around 15 seconds in doing so, just so the yellow circle could literally fill about a pixel more. This was whilst driving the Class 166 on GWE.

    Now these instructions are perfect for always on-time AI trains, however for player trains, it doesn’t leave room for much human error at all. The driver (player) should decide when to close the doors based on arrival time and departure time, not a pre-set timer which has no logic of real and right time departure. Especially on GWE where the default timer is set to 60 seconds, regardless of which train you are driving, station and arrival and departure time at the station.

    Talking of the yellow circle which fills up, it doesn’t really make much sense at all. Why is it there? It’ll always fill up at a set speed and then either say wait until (departure time) or close doors, which can cause you to be late at times as you have to wait for it to fill up. This can be quite frustrating as if you’re running late, you’re literally forced to wait for it to fill up and/or if you’re at quiet station with no passengers getting on.

    I suggest you remove the yellow circle loading timer and let the player depart according to their own account. As long as you depart no earlier than booked departure time, I see no issue with this and no need for a set timer.
     
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  2. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I'm having more issues with stop markers which don't get ticket off because you're stopping 2 yards before the actual marker. (Overshooting is usually better than undershooting, it seems). Especially annoying if the stop marker is right before a red signal. Often stopping exactly at the marker means you're so close to the signal, that you can't even see the signal from within the cab anymore.

    Obviously overshooting the marker by only a few yards means you're doing a SPAD and ends the service.
     
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  3. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the yellow circle the TSW equivalent of the candy cane bar in TS. That sometimes takes an age to fill at station stops. Maybe you have a point.
     
  4. JeffFromTheIRS

    JeffFromTheIRS Member

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    On the Bakerloo Line, when parking in the sidings, the stop marker doesn't register that I stopped there - despite the driving cab being literally right over it. I have leeway for the stations, but the sidings? Nah, requires exact precision for whatever reason.
     
  5. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Stop markers are really too strict sometimes. I like the end marker service stop when close to red signals as this is a challenge, but when changing directions with a shunter and having to stop like 10 times with surgical precision in an interval that is half the size of the locomotive... I don´t see that. Normally the tolerance is around 10m. Maybe that could be increased a bit.

    Cheers
     
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  6. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I'm with you, this is annoying. I just had the same issue on Rapid Transit, by reopening the doors too quickly I broke the train, could not close the doors any longer so about an hour time spent for a scenario I could no longer complete, double frustration :(
    I think there was another thread on that topic as well, would be really nice to not have the countdown...
     
  7. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately the stop markers are often misplaced as well, that would need some fixing if they like to keep them
    ee73a024-bdcb-4204-9af4-673b6eb3fc5c.jpeg
    The dosto in the middle is an AI train...
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
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  8. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I think the yellow circle can stay, but if a stop is supposed to be 30 seconds, let the circle fill up in 15 secs. This way you can slowly get rid of your delay and also see your departure time in advance as the circle would already be filled up.
     
  9. nberneck99

    nberneck99 Active Member

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    In real life though it’s pretty variable how many people get on/off your train at any particular station. I think it should be randomized how fast the passengers "load".
     
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  10. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Drive freight... station dwell isn’t a concern :)
     
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  11. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    The computer is probably measuring down to an accuracy of 1 microsecond or better. As you suggest this is perfect for the AI because it's the computer. The problem is that computers need precise instructions but they are also very good at following those precise instructions unlike humans. I believe the only way round your problem is for DTG to increase the tolerance for this type of instruction but when you count up the coding time, subsystem testing, impact testing and main QA testing time it comes to a reasonable amount of work for what is frankly a fairly minor irritant in the big scheme of things.

    Getting slightly more realistic timetables would IMO be a better idea and is more likely to be widely supported by the general community increasing teh chance that DTG might actually do something about it.Just my tuppence worth.
     
  12. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    I believe the reason it's currently so strict is to offer that level of realism that certain steps are required to be completed in a certain order and to keep the game challenging.

    However I can completely understand the frustrations when something minor can either stop you progressing to the next step because you completed it too early or the train becomes impossible to move.

    I have personally been caught out a few times myself, I've made a note of the feedback shared in here.
     
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  13. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for noting down the feedback, appreciate it.

    However, I disagree with the bit I've highlighted in bold. The fact that it's so strict somewhat, ironically, reduces the feel of realism for me. It's basically impossible to play the game HUDless because you have to be so dependant on that yellow circle filling up, as opposed to you, as the driver, deciding when it is best to close the doors.

    I'd prefer if the game allowed for more flexibility and wasn't so stringent on us doing things by the exact second, like a robot. A real driver and/or guard will always have variations at each station stop by at least a few seconds.

    Finally, as mentioned above, some of the stop markers are, absolutely, way too strict. Unless you have stopped in the EXACT required place, the instruction will not complete. Again, this is something the driver should decide whether they have stopped in the right place or not, not the game.

    It's things like this which I think if could be amended, it could make a huge difference to gameplay. Less dependant on what the game wants you to do and more dependant on the drivers' ability/skills.
     
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  14. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Circle doesn't make sense for the driver operated doors. Because it loses the feeedom to depart when ready. Circle in my opinion would have sense just for the guard operated doors. But it should be dependent on the situation, so no pessengers than go.
     
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  15. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    The stop markers on LIRR Jamaica station are pretty much at the end of the platform. When you stop exactly at that marker, you have no vision on the dwarf signal a few yards in front of you. Are you sure that's realistic?
     
  16. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    The circle doesn't make sense altogether. The departure time should be entirely dependent on the driver/guard. It's unrealistic to close doors ON departure time, that's just dumb. You need to close the doors prior to the departure time, in order for you to depart the station on time.
     
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  17. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    and only when the signal ahead is clear. Makes no sense closing the doors when the signal is at danger. That's another weird thing of TSW. It only clears the next section after you've closed the doors.
     
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  18. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's another immersion breaker. TSW can only support one instruction at a time/can't look ahead which consequently means it is very limited in what it can do at any one time.

    X instruction needs to be complete for Y instruction to activate. This is where the big limitations are. You're forced to do things in such a routinely way, how the game wants you to do it. There's not really any freedom in the player deciding on how to do things.
     
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  19. Sintbert

    Sintbert Well-Known Member

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    The real reason for it the instructions to be so strict, is because those are the same instructions the AI-Driver gets. And since by design in timetable mode every player service must be able to be driven by de AI-Driver from any point onward, the train has to be on the designed path/location at all times.

    Another thing is that those instructions sometimes are a bit oddly placed, most would be easy to correct if someone would do it:

    Its no problem for the AI-Driver to stop 2m in front of a signal, but a real driver would stop more like 10m away, just to be on the safe side. The only exception would be in short sidings or at platforms where he would creep up to the signal till he is in the right position. But he would never do a brake from line speed to exactly the point in front of a red signal.

    The stopping point on platforms is currently to simple designed. It does not account for the length and type of train or platform design.
    On most stations there are underpasses, short trains would stop centered around them and not at the end of the platform.
    Long trains on short platforms on the other hand would sometimes stop with the loco past the end of the platform to allow more carriages on the platform.
    As an example the 1-Unit-ICE on the platform in Munich-Pasing in direction Munich would stop at the part of the platform with a roof, not completely past it. I could give you endless such examples for every single route so far.
     
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  20. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    In a game where points are given for timliness and accuracy it has to have some way of allocating these. What would be good was if you could turn these off or ignore them and have the game ignore them too.

    E.g. you can turn of the stop point markers and if you are ignoring points then it doesn't matter if you were 25 yards away if you stopped where you thought you should based on the platform and train size etc.

    The other interesting point is that sometimes if you don't do things in the exact way or order the game doesn't pick them up which is unfortunate. I think the game could have a broader range of checkpoints built in so that if you get to the same point but from a different pattern of pressing knobs and levers then you still get a tick and can move on to the next stage.
     
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  21. hightower

    hightower Guest

    You’re right, and it’s all well and good except that the (mostly) scenarios that hold your hand in this way miss loads of stuff/steps out. Being this way it neither simulates things properly, nor does it give you free reign to to do it the correct way yourself.

    It really could do to be one or the other (I vote the other) as the half way house works for no one.
     
  22. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I think I suggested elsewhere that the yellow circle should change to green at the three quarter point and allow optional departure.
    Nothings worse than to be running late and being unable to makeup the time.

    Was two minutes behind in a Peninsula Corridor cabcar when I found I’d left the brakes on in the baby b. :(
    Arrived two minutes early having subjected the passengers to the roughest ride of their lives.
     
  23. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I'd be happy with a simple 'load/unload' instruction with the driver deciding on when to close the doors and when to depart.
     
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Some of the stop markers are very unrealistic. On Huddersfield station, for example which must be able to hold 14 mark two coaches, the stop marker is at the end of the platform. Okay for a loco hauled train but when a AI two car DMU pulls up at the end of the platform, well away from the area passengers would be waiting, it looks ridiculous and does spoil the immersion somewhat.

    It used to be a problem in TS1 which was resolved by having two or maybe even three stop markers on a platform so a two car DMU could stop somewhere realistic as could a four coach train or a long express train. Surely they could implement that on TSW.

    TVL is better but I suppose that only sees DMU's so there was no need to put markers at the end of the platforms.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  25. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This is what happens in GWE on the semi-fast 166 services. DTG didn't place down multiple stop markers on the fast line platforms, but only the HST stop markers. This results in you having to drive your 166 right down to the end of the platform.
     
  26. keksman

    keksman Well-Known Member

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    100% agree.. In general just too many restrictions in the game. We should be able to open/close the doors whenever we feel is right, moving the train whenever we like and walk to wheverever we want.
     
  27. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes I had forgot about GWE, I haven't used it much for a while. It looks wrong, I would have thought that would be the sort of visual thing they would have spotted to be honest. It looked ridiculous ten years go. It has always irritated me.

    You only have to look at the AP Wherry Lines route for TS1 where even the small platforms often have two stop markers.
     
  28. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    GWE has so many isolated issues, its sad that they will never get fixed. The route visually looks great, as well as having a lot of potential, however the route is just too broken for me to fully enjoy it.
     
  29. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Until the placement of stop markers improves... you can stop anywhere on the platform even if the designated stop point isn’t in the right place. You can stop in the more realistic place. The points you get will change but for those wanting realism over arcade that doesn’t really matter at all. Of course the AI will still stop in the wrong place and you still have to wait for the set time before closing the doors but it’s a start. It’s a bit of a workaround and is for passenger trains only. Stopping an inch short of a stop point in a freight train will still have you tearing your hair out.
     
  30. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    You took the words right out of my mouth, as the saying goes. And I find that stop markers don't require as much precision, either! I've tried passenger based activities and found them much more frustrating than rewarding. Freight, especially shunting, is just the opposite for me.
     
  31. Thorgred

    Thorgred Member

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    if a train departs to early in real life people complain
    nothing wrong as it is now in TSW
    only some routes are just to strict on the times
    no matter how good you drive
    once the loading part is done and you see a waiting there (instead of loading) you can close the doors but still not depart early but atleast you can move exactly at the time and save a few seconds
     
  32. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Maybe a viable alternative would be an option to switch off the timetable. Driving without a timetable is very relaxed, as we may know from MSB and IOW.
     
  33. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Would be nice, although by now I've learned to simply ignore the clock. Much more relaxed.
     
  34. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    It certainly is relaxing to drive without a timetable, however that stopped us from being able to get gold medals in IoW (due to the missing +500 AP for arriving on time).
     
  35. box215

    box215 Member

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    I mean the whole topic of this thread is a little too nit-picky for me
    You needed to wait an extra SECOND before closing the doors. Like ok, so be a little more patient...

    I've never not gotten a gold medal because I had to wait until passenger loading was done. And i've never been late because of it
    If I'm late, its because of something I did wrong (like not acknowledging PZB), not because I had to wait for passenger loading to finish

    And if I don't get a gold medal, it's usually something wrong with the game (as in there simply arent enough points available to get gold)

    Stopping and starting trains are the most difficult things in regards to driving one. If youre having trouble stopping at the markers as indicated, only more practice will help that
    Not complaining about the game needing to be changed...
    Just my $0.02

    EDIT: Regarding the doors closing - you can actually start closing the doors on some trains before the circle fills up (ie 422 or 425)
    Depends on the train. The earlier routes are less forgiving in this regard
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  36. bescot

    bescot Member

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    I look at the door timer as when it's lit up yellow and moving there are passengers boarding or leaving. If you close the doors before the timer has ended you've in theory shut someone in them so would need to re release. I think Zusi works the same.

    The point about signals only clearing on some routes after you close doors is valid. You'd never (or the guard never) ever close the doors on a red it's a recipe for a spad.
     
  37. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I've stopped caring about medals. Just enjoy the drive. :)
     
  38. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Not always.
     
  39. hightower

    hightower Guest

    The point being made, I think, is that the stop markers are often either in the wrong place or don’t exist at all, not so much that people are struggling to stop in the right place.
     
  40. JeffFromTheIRS

    JeffFromTheIRS Member

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    It's not that I'm having difficulty stopping at the markers as indicated, but some of the markers are super sensitive and need you to be precise to the centimeter or whatever. Usually, it happens in sidings (in my experience) and forces me to inch up slowly or reverse because, despite the cab being literally above the stop marker, the game doesn't register that I stopped at the marker.
     
  41. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    I would like the option to turn off the ending of service for a SPAD, as that is not realistic for that to happen it doesn't happen in real life. if you only over shoot by a small margin then you should be allowed to continue say after contacting the signaller to confirm its ok to proceed.
     
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  42. Sintbert

    Sintbert Well-Known Member

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    Its only realistic for the service to end after a SPAD.. if you do one in real-life, you don't drive anywhere for quite some time.
     
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