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Tsw: Introducing Hauptstrecke Rhein-ruhr!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Mar 10, 2020.

  1. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    Screenshot (350)_LI.jpg

    Ummmmm... is the local S-Bahn service really only 35 minutes?
     
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  2. Callum B.

    Callum B. Active Member

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    I agree with these sentiments. I think the DE routes are consistently the highest quality DLC made for this game, followed by the UK and NA trailing behind. I was thinking about buying RRO (the only German route to date that I do not own), but now I am presented with a choice. I don't think I will want to pay for both of these since they appear like very similar experiences, so I shall wait to hear from customers how HRR compares to RRO in terms of value. Oakville has left a very sour taste in my mouth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
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  3. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Is HRR PZB enabled ? I assume it will be...but there is no mention of it in the pre-release article or on the steam page.
     
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  4. Callum B.

    Callum B. Active Member

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    In my opinion, the short routes are becoming tiring. That is not inherently because the routes are short, but because they are usually lacking substance. There is a reason RRO is so highly rated: it is the most dense and interesting-to-drive route to date, even though it is also one of the shortest. One of the primary reasons why the other short routes feel so unsubstantial is their lack of proper definition. RRO is defined with a large terminus that makes the route make sense. The driver is given a sense of purpose when told that their final destination is a large, bustling terminus where the train will terminate. On routes like ECW Oakville and this upcoming HRR, there is no real sense of purpose because there is no real beginning and end to your route. It is suburbia to suburbia, instead of suburbia to urbia. Someone else (I forget who, pardon) analogised the Oakville mainline to cutting off the termini on Peninsula Corridor (SF and San Jose) and then cutting off another ten or so suburban stations from the run. Obviously no one would want to run that verson of Peninsula Corridor, because what is the point of a commuter service when we don't even get to transport commuters to and from the city! It makes the routes feel incoherent and lacking personality.

    Gimping route length in favour of dense local action is not a completely unfounded justification, so long as the claims are true (ahem, CN Oakville) as we have seen very high ratings with RRO, but DTG have proved to us with both RSN and PIC that they are capable of creating long-but-still-purposeful routes and I wish they would be the standard.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  5. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, and I really doubt this S-Bahn will have character. Heck, there isn't even freight!
     
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  6. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    You’ll get freight if you have MSB.
     
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  7. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    ECW has Brighton, which is a large terminus. Peninsula Corridor also has a big terminus.
     
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  8. Callum B.

    Callum B. Active Member

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    Forgive me, you are correct.
    I agree, that is what I said.
     
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  9. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Setting aside the failure of the DB BR 155 rolling stock on RSN* (on PS4), I would agree with your assessment. The German routes have been one step ahead in each cycle. They can afford to do funkier stuff with their routes (more trains/traffic and better lighting effects, etc.), because when you look at the builds very closely they are built out with optimisation in mind (compared to the very sloppy WSR and slightly rushed NEC) . And then they add a bit of flair - some choreography at the start of scenarios, a train with five locos... plus Easter eggs like the mini container mazes with litlle jokes.... I don't see a German route ending up like Oakville - ever...

    I have stopped buying full priced at TVL. And I can't see myself buying another full price route for TSW again. (Altho TVL was well worth it...). I think that what is happening with RSN/RRO/HRR.... is that there is quite simply a solid market for these routes... in Germany. The apparent repetition of Ruhr-land routes is a shame for everyone else, maybe, because TSW had been doing quite well with curated variety. But if it sells, it sells....

    Anyway - I have just turned my attention to TS2020 (well...actually, TS2015 and the South London Network...), and the content there is going for a song - £5 per route, and DLC locos for £2 to £3.... And the stuff I have played so far has played very very nicely.... to my surprise. And the "game" aspect (replayability) in TS2020 is far far superior to TSW in its current state... to my shock....

    -------
    *NB: Actually - there are issues with RSN as well - I get the odd feeling that this route was built in a very very strange way, perhaps with parts of the route vertically stacked upwards (straight up - Z-axis, every 300m, like a huge layered cake)... as if they tried to cram x3 the prims onto each tile (cake plate...), which then kills the performance and makes the late pop-in quite bad... especially for the complete castle that pops in at 250m.... . (I could just be imagining this issue, but I found some very weird asset behaviour on RSN which makes me think they stacked the route... like a cake). No such issues with MSB, which is beautifully built.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
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  10. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

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    No, EMU DB 425 looks like another "toy".
    DB 101, 103 (historical and iconical German loco), 182 (we already got this one as addon but we cant use for a passenger service) and new DB cars for some InterCity service, they would have been good. This is only another interesting route (but) without Intercity services and ICE(xpress) services. I only hope you (DTG) have in your plan to add the IC and/or ICE service like addon, in the next future.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
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  11. Cael

    Cael Well-Known Member

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    This route could technically support an ICE service as you get a total of 3 stops, although you wouldn't be able to blast down the line at 200 km/h.
    upload_2020-3-11_5-31-36.png
     
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  12. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

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  13. Callum B.

    Callum B. Active Member

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    Sure, but it would be pitiful and virtually pointless.
     
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  14. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

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  15. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, looks that way, if the final point is Bochum Hbf. I've just posted this on another thread, but probably should have put it here...

    With RRO, then length wasn't as much of an issue as people make out because the 422 service stop so frequently that an end-to-end run takes the best part of an hour. From my own perspective, I sometime like just doing one of the RE service which takes 20-30 minutes to fill a bit of time, but I guess a lot of people want to get their teeth into a couple of hours of play time. Not sure how that's going to play out here - even if they go as far as the big yard in Bochum-Langendreer to make the most of the freight/switching opportunities in future (which they probably won't), the S1 takes 42 minutes which is getting on a par with RRO. To Bochum Hbf, the RE11 is 27 mins, the RE6 is 25 mins, The S1 is 35 mins over 11 stops. If that's the longest passenger service, I suspect there may be complaints!
     
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  16. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The Full S1 from Dortmund Hbf to Solingen Hbf is almost 2 Hours
     
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  17. keksman

    keksman Well-Known Member

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    Each dlc gets smaller in map size and includes less trains and already used trains lol
     
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  18. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    “The DB BR 422 and 425 provide over 200 timetabled services, however they can be accompanied by additional freight and passenger traffic for owners or Main-Spessart Bahn. By utilising MSB's DB BR 146, 185, doppelstock and freight cars, over 150 extra services are added to the route.” Taken from the article.
     
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  19. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I really enjoy driving the 422 on RRO so having another route to drive it on is a good thing. I’m excited for the 425 and from the picture with the bridges it looks like this route is going to be some great scenery.
     
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  20. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It does look like it could be a decent route and I will likely get it, possibly may wait for a sale. It may be too similar to the last German route. I don't mind shorter routes generally if there is plenty to do but I must admit a slightly longer route with an ICE train would have been nice and would offer something a little different.
     
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  21. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

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    I enjoy too. But the point is that we already have four German dlc (RT, RSN, MSB and RRO) and the next one will be the fifth.
    We already have two EMUs (Talent2 and 422) and a tons of rolling stock.

    The only thing we haven't seen yet about German railway are the high-ranking trains, high-ranking trains like InterCity and InterCity Express (rolling stock including).

    I wonder how a modern high-speed rail can be immersive and realistic if deprived of part of its most prestigious rolling stock.
    I wonder how much longer we will have to wait before seeing one.
     
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  22. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Bochum to Duisburg is my Main Route when im driving to Düsseldorf or Solingen, so i know this Route pretty Great
     
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  23. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, if you own MSB - at the end of the article it says...
    As I mentioned in more detail on the Baseless Speculation thread there's potential for loads of freight activity in that area - there's (circled left-to-right on image) a big port at Duisburg (with a new container crane), an industrial yard with steel manufacturers near Mulheim, and ThyssenKrupp Steel Europe AG based in Bochum. Obviously, we don't know what they're using yet, but there's potential...

    DE2020A.jpg

    Also, while the map's here, it looks like, in the style of RRO, we'll also get a couple of alternate routes to use.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  24. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    "150 extra services are added to the route." I do own Main-Spessart Bahn, but haven't looked at it in a while; if memory serves, the freight activities all involve only simple, point-to-point driving. This leads me to two questions: 1) how on earth did they arrive at the number of 150 extra services? 2) will DTG ever produce a German switcher?
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  25. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I think you misunderstood what the article said. The 150 extra services are using the stock from MSB. Not the actual services from MSB.
     
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  26. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    RE6 and RE11 services run a couple of times an hour in both directions so that's a fair chunk. Might be a few of those Mickey Mouse services like on RRO where you move the train from the depot to the station and it takes about 2 mins. Then some freight!
     
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  27. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I just noticed that as well; however, repeating the same service multiple times with the only difference being that the time of departure changes doesn't really amount to 150 services; at least not in my opinion. Only the presence of AI services could add variety.
     
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  28. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    One more note: this route can be pre-purchased at a 10% discount, which reduces its price by $3 to $26.99, but the Caltrain Switcher DLC can only be added to one's wish list, with no discount available and, for now, no price mentioned. Curious?!?
     
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  29. PlatChap

    PlatChap Well-Known Member

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    For reasons that are their own I don't believe they have ever offered a discounted pre-purchase for their locomotive releases
     
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  30. 4-COR

    4-COR Member

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    apparently there's about 30 if you own MSB
     
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  31. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I like your map. Are you circling the bits that probably won't be included in the route, or are they the bits that probably will be included.....?

    Looking at your circles from left to right, I wonder if they plan to recreate massive neolithic chalk carvings in the mountainside***:

    Left - Looks like a scorpion, to celebrate the clan warriors maybe...?
    Middle - Possibly a rabbit - for fertility...?
    Right - The sinking of a large boat - to mark passage into the afterlife.....?

    I love these kinds of details. It's like warehouses astride railway tracks - nobody other than DTG could think of something as novel as doing that - the creativity and innovation - you have to marvel at it, really....:

    That picture again.jpg

    ------------------------
    NB***: This might not work with short draw distances though.
     
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  32. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    It was originally for a much bigger post in the Baseless Speculation thread when someone had found only the potential end points, theorising about what could be included. I suggested the multiple rail yards and a split route could be like a perfect mashup of RRO and OSD. Seems I was only half right! They're definitely going to have to work on the draw distance for your chalk carvings :)
     
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  33. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks;)
     
  34. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    F5376490-9484-4F5E-BA2C-4A0FCC19147B.jpeg C07349AF-F8C5-4531-A4C1-183EBE83A6A0.jpeg
     
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  35. Cael

    Cael Well-Known Member

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  36. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Why is DB BR 425 presented as S1 ?
     
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  37. seblay1608

    seblay1608 Member

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    Eventuall its a szenario
     
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  38. dani_alexa2003

    dani_alexa2003 New Member

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    Siempre lo mismo me canso algo nuevo
     
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  39. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    English
     
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  40. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    He/she is tired and wants something new -- That's how google translated it anyway
     
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  41. Boda09

    Boda09 New Member

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    Agree with you. ICE !!! we need one. First electric high speed train in a bigger route, iconic. Maybe one day....
     
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  42. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    If they don’t change their politics of short routes I sadly don’t think we’ll ever see a long route suitable for an ICE set
     
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  43. Boda09

    Boda09 New Member

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    But short routes are faster to build, so you make more and sell more. Or they do like in Peninsula corridor... A longer route but sell only with a few locos and put the rest for dlc. They need to pay the bills. Maybe they can ask for more money for a dlc that takes longer time to produce??? Do not know if is a profitable... You need to have lots of big fans that prefer to buy dlc than a full new triple AAA game in discount for the same money. Even the prices of dlc at launch are to much in my opinion. Especially like in the case of the canadian dlc.
     
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  44. Boda09

    Boda09 New Member

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    He said "Always the same is boring. Want something new"
     
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  45. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    Well it’s new we have a new stock and not a recycled one

    Edit: someone already responded to me
     
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  46. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Errr...what ?
     
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  47. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    Wrong post
     
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  48. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Although shorter routes do take less time to make not so sure on how profitable they really are. Especially if people start getting sick of 20 mile routes. It seems shorter routes always come with fewer newer stock and more recycled stock.

    I was really hoping by now that DTG would have found away to make routes longer each time they made a new DLC. Considering they made the CSX route which is the longest route on PC. It could also be the longest route on console if they find the time to make it work. But I guess we will have to wait for the editor so we can count on a third party developers to do that.
     
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  49. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    I think that's a pretty broken business model. $30 is a high premium to begin with and the quality often fluctuates. Excellent routes like Northern Trans-Pennine and Ruhr-Sieg Nord cost the same amount as short, broken ones like Oakville Sub and Northeast Corridor. If DTG made routes that were of consistent length and quality, I think most of the community wouldn't mind the wait. Sure, they're cranking out routes to stay profitable, and that makes some sense, but if they simply put more work into their content it would probably do even better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
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  50. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    It certainly seems to be working for them currently, but it remains to be seen how sustainable that is. Once people build up a library of DLC which gives them enough variety to keep switching routes and mix up their gameplay, the incentive to buy ever more routes at premium prices diminishes. Where quality isn't guaranteed, users will simply wait for sales or skip the routes which they find less compelling altogether. I'd quite like a modern, British EMU route, but I've not seen enough in ECW to draw me in yet. If it had been longer, with a couple of new trains, I may well have bought at launch.
     
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