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Tsw Just Not Cutting It With The Pc Crowd!

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by longo239, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. There’s plenty of wonderful looking routes in TS1 with acceptable frame rates. This route is neither wonderful looking nor has acceptable frame rates. It’s simply down to bad optimisation.
     
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  2. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    That TS stagnation as you call it is still 3 times the average number of regular player of TSW2020 prior to the release of TSW2. It's still the same for both TSW2020 and TSW2 combined.

    Like I said the TSW series (TSW2020 and TSW2) does not seem to be gathering any momentum with the PC users, who you can clearly see are still choosing TS.
     
  3. Sintbert

    Sintbert Well-Known Member

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    Double the concurrent player numbers every year is not gathering momentum for you? I call that healthy growth for a long term game..
     
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  4. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    My guess is that DTG works on the basis that a route/project has a fixed budget/timeframe. Run out of money or time and it still gets released. When you have that situation projects skip on testing (costs money and time) and another giveaway is no documentation as it is seen as something that can be eliminated. I think it also explains short routes. Longer routes would need more time and money and don’t fit into the time/cost box.

    DTG are in some ways their own worst enemy. Does TSxxxx need an annual release now? Does it need three routes, one UK, one US and one German on that release? I’m sure that in the past the annual release was there to keep interest in the platform but perhaps that (and some other things) needs to be looked at. DTG never change because DTG keep doing the same things all of the time.

    They must realize that when they release rubbish content they instantly will get bad reviews on the net. Do they think that some very mixed reviews and an average three star rating on Steam following release helps them sell content? People would have moaned if only two routes had been worked on and released (one of the UK, US or Germany wouldn’t have been happy) but at least they would have avoided some of the more unpleasant postings.
     
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  5. Sintbert

    Sintbert Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that those 3 included routes have been released over the last year? Those are not new routes that are exclusive with the update, its just a starterpackage of available DLC. Other than that its a few bugfixes and small feature. Its not like TS2021 is a major upgrade.
     
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  6. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    So how does an annual release, intended as a starter package for newcomers include one route with dreadful performance?

    i am fully aware that it doesn’t represent any big updates on the game, and nor did most of its predecessors. So what purpose does the annual release now serve? Just a cynical attempt to suggest to newcomers that it’s an up to date game? And why does the starter pack have to annual and composed of new DLC. So, you sell the new DLC to your existing base at full price and then use it to attract newbies at a discounted package price?

    On Steam DTG describe TS2021 as the ‘ultimate rail hobby’. How does that place TSW2?
     
  7. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it wasn't performing badly when they tested it. I have seen quite a few comments on various places where people are not having any issues with frame rates. TS1 seems to act inconsistently on different machines often lower spec ones, often performing better than on the latest state of the art ones.
     
  8. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    When you test a PC game you are meant to test against a range of configurations although total coverage is pretty nigh impossible. I agree TSxxxx is a bit quirky. I often wondered how many new players gave up on it not realizing that it defaulted to the integrated graphics rather than to the discrete one and that you needed to point it to the right card. Did that ever get fixed?

    I’ve a pretty powerful rig and In retrying TSxxxx again I’ll agree everything isn’t as you’d imagine. That depth of field slider certainly doesn’t work as you’d expect. TSW from that point of view isn’t perfect, but it certainly seems more consistent.

    Back to the demo that didn’t go well. People don’t run through the presentation before they present it online? Having in my business life been responsible for many, many software presentations we always did a run through, just to avoid embarrassment.so many things can go wrong, machine, missing software, wrong configs - perhaps some people prefer performing without a safety net.
     
  9. tinblue

    tinblue New Member

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    Woefully lacking in technical detail. It's all about graphics with Dovetail and little substance. Trying to make something look good in screenshots and videos is their strategy. Lacking authentic and immersive audio, the AI passengers Iook like something from 3 generations ago tech. It's not up to scratch and they get away with it because of lack of serious competition.

    Maybe it's the upper management, I don't know. But something is very bad in the driving priorities at this company. They have zero competition and they could be a world class in Train Simulations but they just are complacent and somehow mess up at every step of the way.
     
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  10. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree. This is the real deal breaker for me. I still like TSW, it's still not too arcade to feel too stupid but could be much much MUCH better.

    And I fear it's actually intended. They know the majority of the population doesn't care or just wants to play some trains (nothing wrong with that BTW).
     
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  11. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    TSW has an identity crisis. In some areas it seems like it’s for experienced players but in other areas it seems like it’s for newbie players.

    It could really do with ‘easy’ and ‘advanced’ settings.
     
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  12. cwf.green

    cwf.green Member

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    Hightower expressed my views so exactly (and eloquently) that I might just be the victim of some kind of arcane mind meld :D
    Basically DTG is the Bethesda of simulator games: they release buggy and quite incomplete games/DLC that have a lot of potential. Then the community takes over and mods the games to a working condition. Unfortunately DTG now (with TSW) seem to think they can make it on their own without community/third party help. I'm not so sure.
     
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  13. tinblue

    tinblue New Member

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    Except Bethesda go out of their way to make their games modable. Complete opposite with Dovetail. If TSW2 was easily modable it would be incredible and nobody would need complain at all. But then an sudden influx of quality mods would prevent Dovetail ripping us off with their sub standard DLC.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
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  14. ASRGT

    ASRGT Well-Known Member

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    In all the years i played TS there was always one constant no matter how many pc upgrades had come and gone the game has always and will always run like utter garbage for me at least.

    as for TSW2 it lacks variety, the recent timetable mod to Köln - Aachen is a great example of how good a route can be when rolling stock variety is added and the timetables fleshed out. But its going to take some consistent development updates and probably a good 12 months of addons before TSW2 is really going to even start to get some decent variety out of the box. The one area however that TSW2 has firmly over TS for me is the aforementioned performance, 100fps is easy for me in TSW2 but more than 33fps in TS2020 has just not been achievable for me on most routes in that game.

    TS has had its day for me at least. But then I'm not a user who had $1000s invested in TS so jumping ship not a big deal.
     
  15. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    I think this a big issue that needs managing very carefully.
     
  16. cwf.green

    cwf.green Member

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    I guess you're right. Even with old TSxx/Railworks the modding tools were subpar in ease of use, but at least they existed. My point was that if they try to survive only on TSW and don't have mod support they will most likely lose a large proportion of their audience.
     
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  17. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    The idea that because someone has spent a lot of money on add ons somehow stifles them moving on always seems a bit overdone to me. There is some truth that if you have invested time in making your game as optimal as you can moving on might not so beneficial. TSxxxx was a good example of that. Some add-ons (I’ll use AP as an example again) really enhanced the base game. There was also some very good freeware. So, it wasn’t just about adding a lot of payware add ons. If you invested time you could significantly improve what came out of the box - look, weather, sound. That’s an issue with TSW (both 1 and 2) you can’t alter to any great degree what comes out of the tin.

    Back to ‘investing’ in payware. Some people buy payware others don’t. I’ve bought a lot of content for TSxxxx and also for TSW1 & 2. I don’t see purchases as ‘investments’. It’s software and like any software it has a limited life.

    Also, TSW is much more limiting on what you can do with an add on. Think of the Class 20 Chopper and the amount of different routes and scenarios you could use an asset like that in TSxxxx compared with TSW. There were lots of reasons to buy the Chopper in TSxxxx, far less in TSW.
     
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  18. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    For now, sure. But I'm playing TSXXXX since the Railworks days. Then the sim was in similar situation TSW is in now. It was a fresh platform, with all the ecosystem, 3rd party, and free-party devs build around MSTS.
    Lots of the things we take for granted in TSxxxx, like steam workshop, or quickdrive didn't exists, those that existed, like scenario editor was even more user unfriendly as it is now. Also the platform as a whole was also quite buggy. Compared to MSTS, it had only the better looking engine.

    TSW needs time, for the 3rd party devs to hop on, and also for DTG to get experience with the platform and refine the processes. To build the variety we enjoy in TSxxxx, also time to also build and improve the creation tools, as well as incorporate a sharing platform.
     
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  19. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    TSW has been out now for around two and a half years. How much time do you think they will get/need?
     
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  20. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    Two and half years isn't that long, in that time TSxxxx wasn't even called TS yet ;)
    TSW needs more interesting routes, something other than a generic german, uk passenger, or US freight. I think the comming french, or swiss routes will boost the platform.
     
  21. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Not so. The TSxxxx branding began with RailWorks 3: Train Simulator 2012, on September 23, 2011--less than 2.5 years after RailWorks' original release.
     

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  22. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Until TSW has a proper editor for the community to create shareable content, it will never be complete. However, I think we all know that there's little to no chance of that happening.

    Relying on DTG turning out top quality content, and approved software developers who can or are willing to jump through the hoops of their third party program, in my opinion won't be enough.

    All the really successful games and sims have loads of shareable content from the the community.
     
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  23. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    Ok, so I missed it by few months ;)
     
  24. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Interesting data.

    Ain't no editor.
    Multiplayer, maybe.
     
  25. cwf.green

    cwf.green Member

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    Most people don't know how trains behave and what to expect, so unless the train is braking in 100m from 160 km/h or the sound is completely broken most users will be fine or not know anything is wrong if the train brakes in 300m instead and the sound is that of a vacuum cleaner with some tweaks :D
    Jokes aside, most users of TSW have never driven a train or maybe never even been inside the cab of one, so it is easy for DTG to do mediocre work and fool most users. In fact sometimes DTG are punished for actually having realistic behavior as can be seen from some of the bug reports of things that aren't bugs.
     
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  26. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    TSW has actually been around for close to 4 years now - 16th March 2021 will be its 4th birthday.
     
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  27. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, from this point of view I fear I'm actually not that much better than the average, although I've been in a train cab a couple of times, but it's not my job I'm just a train enthusiast which just happened to have a bit too much time to study how trains works I guess lol.

    Anyway I can find the most glaring bugs and bad physics but your insights on, for example, braking, PZB modes, etc... has been very intriguing to read, keep it up
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  28. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes I play other 'simulators', e.g. DCS. Even in the area of one game it happens - two different planes - you can complain about the first one; the second one flies and it feels, although I have never even stood next to a fighter.

    The same is probably with TSW - how realistic it is I do not know, but it is often unbelievable.
     
  29. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    It took X-plane over 10 years to be consider on par with FSX and P3D -- though even that debate continues :)
     
  30. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Xplane was launched when, in the mid-nineties? Perhaps the gaming market has changed a little in the past few years?
     
  31. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    When I was running FSX "back in the day" I had - literally - hundreds of hours and dollars invested in getting the software to work and play well. That effort involved lots of third-party content and "study level" aircraft that were quite good. Once it was all set up to function reliably and perform decently it was a great system. It took five years to get to that point.

    TSW2 is new enough that there is not a lot out there yet to "enhance" the experience. And, there are still bugs to squash in the base code. It's going to take some time. I'm in it for the long haul - same can be said for Flight Sim - so it pays to be patient. And have a good book to read when you're feeling impatient. :)
     
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  32. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Really - How has the game market changed with respect to new simulations competing with older, established simulations? Especially since that is the case in point with these discussion.
     
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  33. cwf.green

    cwf.green Member

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    I agree that TSW is young in simulator terms. Train Simulator could be said to have started back in 2007 with Rail Simulator and didn't really get good until third party creators such as Armstrong Powerhouse, Virtual Railroads etc came on the scene around 2012. There was also an increase in the quality of RSC routes at that time with the Brighton Main Line being a good example.

    But, and this is a big thing that it seems people are forgetting, TS20xx would be a shadow of it's current self if not for the third party creators (or it might even have gone under) and these third party creators were allowed to experiment and gain experience because there were available editor tools that you didn't need to join some partnership program to gain access too.

    The question is if TSW will even get to that point if only a select few can gain access to the developer tools. Business wise DTG aren't idiots so maybe they have all the trend lines and pie charts where they want them.
     
  34. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Although proper manuals and tutorials would help this.

    Most tutorials consist of:

    > Turn the train on
    > Make the train move
    > Stop the train
    > Congrats you're now a qualified driver. If you need more details please see the manual (manual may or may not exist, terms and conditions do apply)

    DTG should provide enough information that players don't need to think "is this a bug?" And based on experience with DTG, if you think it's a bug, chances are it is a bug
     
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  35. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    For me personally, I don't really have too much of an issue with the routes they have given us. Do I wish more effort was put into scenery assets and sound, of course, but for the most part, they run (although with bugs), and it performs as advertised. The problem is, once you've driven a route a few times and have done the included scenarios a few times, there really isn't much more to see. That's where I had hoped the scenario "planner" would come in handy and would give us access to creative user generated scenarios such as construction works or some sort of out of the ordinary operations, or even services with realistic amount of AI. Unfortunately it is extremely barebones, and lacks any sort of creative ammunition since the number of paths they give us and the functionality of it leave a lot to be desired.


    I think TSW2 needs to focus on unlocking the whole map and all slidings to exponentially increase the replay-ability for the game. They've already committed to never giving us a route editor/asset editor, which is unfortunate, but at least give us the opportunity to make our own scenarios instead of this glorified quick drive. This is where TS1 excels and you have workshop scenarios for routes as old as London to Brighton which came out half a decade ago until this day, because of the expanded replayability with user generated scenarios.
     
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  36. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Active Member

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    I just looked on the stream for 5-10 min and what a pity to watch.
    Just had the feeling that the game is broken and can not offer anything anymore, like telling us "please leave me alone and go on TSW, I want to die in peace".

    Maybe it's the strategy of DTG to make poor dlc and no update on TS to make the people move easier :D
     
  37. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think TS is dead by any means, but from my work experience, if you make all the other available options worse than the option you want people to accept...
     
  38. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    TSW will probably never be an old-school simulator "again", where functionalities are mainly developed, not paid content. Someone elsewhere on this forum has written something nicely like this: DTG wants TSW to be the same experience across all platforms. These are the nuances of the Screenshot Contest rules - unmodified content. Why? Because it is not possible to admire such views everywhere. Consoles have their limitations. I've already come to terms with it.
     
  39. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Active Member

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    Hope that the next gen will improve the overall perf and player experience
     
  40. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    I think big part of the problem is the combination of sims like these being niche segment, and the cost of modern engine development. Today there are really only few companies capable of developing a modern engine from scratch. So smaller companies, like DTG, are stuck with licensed engine, if they want modern look, with all the limitation that come with such licensed engine. Just look at AC vs ACC in the racing sims world.

    I think it is mainly because DTG wants screenshot content to be part of marketing. That a persons sees a nice content during load, hops onto steam and grabs the DLC. Also they themself can only promoted brands they have license for. People don't realize how much pain brands licensing can be, especially with entities that are not used for gaming segment. That's also the reason why they don't allow content that is only available to part of the world.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  41. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘Really - How has the game market changed with respect to new simulations competing with older, established simulations? Especially since that is the case in point with these discussion.‘

    Perhaps you hadn’t noticed how quickly the technology is changing, the amount of money involved, the size of the industry, micro transactions, how people don’t focus any longer on a single game. Whether it’s competing with an existing game or something completely new I’d argue that you don’t get ten to fifteen years to develop your franchise anymore. But if you’re happy that by 2035 TSW will be a full and lively platform i admire your patience.
     
  42. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    But before RailWorks, it was Rail Simulator, which released in 2007. That's where TS actually started.
     
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  43. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    The technology is evolving very rapidly. At some point in the very near future having a pair of 4K monitors - and a GPU to drive them easily - won't even matter, because you'll be using a VR system to interface with your simulation and game software. Think for a minute about the hardware you were using ten or fifteen years ago; most of us did not even have a dual-core processor on board, and power supplies needed to push 1200 watts to drive the pair of GPUs sending a signal to a CRT monitor, or a pair of flat screens if you were really cutting edge. What will the hardware scene look like ten years from now? Heck, right at this moment my phone is more powerful than the computer I was using to run FSX in 2006. :D

    So, no... software developers don't have the same luxury of time as they had in the past. It will be interesting to see what the future holds for simulation software in general, especially on a PC. The gaming market is clearly aimed at purpose-built closed system consoles, which makes coding far less complicated. Having a fixed set of variables instead of the infinite variety of PC hardware (and drivers) to deal with would appeal to me were I a developer. DTG, given their resources, has done a good job making things work and play well on a PC. IMHO.
     
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  44. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Not really though, I think.

    While you are right about the coding being less complicated on consoles, the hardware limitations of consoles is a big con. For PC you can just make a game as demanding as you'd like, because if the game and the visuals worth it, people will buy the hardware to play it. However for consoles you're just limited to the current generation, not just CPU and GPU wise, but storage wise also (DTG already "complained" about it once in a livestream).

    Anyway to stay on topic, the reason the player numbers for TSW are bad on PC/Steam is that for PC there is TS and other train simulators. And many people are still stuck playing those, because those have more content, built in editors, etc. So many people just didn't feel the need to switch to TSW. On consoles, however, TSW is the only "real" train simulator, from what I know. So everyone with a console will jump to TSW.
     
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  45. DROGE

    DROGE Member

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    Lol! - I'm new to TSW/2 (have been using TSXXXX for around 8 years), and I noticed this too. All of the turorials cover things like setting pantograph selectors etc, in the engine rooms of locos ..... then in every provided scenario and timetable run, everything is set up at the start and the train is ready to drive!
     
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  46. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    There's almost no decent 3rd party content, and it is light years behind TS2021 in terms of what you can do with it. As an example. I wanted to create a scenario on the Settle to Carlisle line, based in the 1970s. In TS I was able to find a route from the Workshop (really excellent quality BTW)... then I can choose from a choice of traction from 1970s BR blue locos and DMUs... some from DTG, most from 3rd parties such as AP or JT... same with coaches etc. Basically... within a few hours, I had everything I needed.

    Can I do this with TSW? No.

    Can I create my own liveries and reskins? Yes... but also no. I can, but the tools are so crude that the answer may as well be no.

    I hope that answers your question.
     
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  47. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Until more third party developers get involved as well as the community getting access to a proper editor (which is very unlikely), TSW will always be very limited in what you can do with it.
     
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  48. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    It's also too console driven in terms of development, so the same level of customisability is very unlikely to happen. It looks nice.... but the novelty of that wears off pretty fast. Besides, there are 3rd party add ons that make TS look WAY better than it does out of the box. Mine isn't really that for behind TSW in terms of how it looks, so there's not even that incentive any longer. This is why you are seeing the low numbers of PC users
     
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  49. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    It's only been out for a month and already cries of "We're Doomed, Doomed I tell you!"
    Things in the sim world ramp up slowly, usually by word of mouth, online comments etc..

    It's a bit early to throw in the towel.
    Better to wait several months and then evaluate with the added experience of new and heritage routes.
    There are several forthcoming ones I will definitely be buying.

    At the worst all my Ts stuff is on a spare hdd which can always be reattached if the sky falls.
     
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  50. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    TSW2 has, yes, but let's be honest, it doesn't really bring THAT much to the table that TSW didn't. The scenario creation aspect isn't going to entice anyone away from TS2021 - it's crude in comparison. Can you actually create routes in TSW2? I don't think you can. If not, that's another barrier for me right there. The livery designer is equally as weak. I can't import images... I can't share what I create... I can have one font, and no ability to add others... I can't even type text into it... I have to place one letter at a time... Basically, if I wanted to create let's say for argument's sake, this.....
    [​IMG]
    ...I'd be screwed. I'm ignoring of course the fact that there isn't a class 91 in TSW2 any way.

    I can't add weathering either.
    Nameplates? Nope.

    While TS doesn't have a livery editor at all as part of the game, it's really easy to reskin a train in 3rd party apps.. all of which are available for free. I'm not even sure if you CAN do that with TSW. I'm sure you can at some level, but.... (shrug)... why is no one doing so if you can? With TS If I can create it in Photoshop (other image editors are available :) ), I can add it to a train.

    It's obvious that PC users aren't really the target audience for TSW2. It's a console game. I'm not saying that in a derogatory way... it genuinely has been developed as such, and firmly and definitely with consoles in mind, so it's a not a case of waiting for it catch up with TS20xx... it never will. That's not what it is for, and if DTG think that long term TS users will migrate, they are delusional.

    I wish I was wrong. If I could have everything I have with TS2021, but with the Unreal Engine, then of course that would be great, but I'm not prepared to sacrifice the simulation itself to get slightly better graphics, and trust me, with 3rd party add ons, the difference isn't as huge as you think.
     
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