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Tsw Just Not Cutting It With The Pc Crowd!

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by longo239, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘There were no licensing issues, the platform was quite alive, yet developers didn't move, why?‘

    I’d suggest one of the reasons on Xplane was the huge difference between 10 and 11. The difference between add ons for 10 and 11 is huge.

    In your earlier response about the work, building assets etc. if there’s no bridge back to the older sim, was interesting. The question there is does that just delay third party developers or does it mean that you aren’t going to see them - that is having to build everything up from scratch is just too costly. Perhaps that’s another answer. When DTG moved to TSW they cut all of the third party vendors adrift. Rivet, as a second party developer ( rather than third) might of course have access to some of DTGs work and therefore don’t have to start from zero.
     
  2. ex-railwayman

    ex-railwayman Member

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    We can all make guesses. I could suggest that as companies they need to spend money in developing something that they can then sell lots of units to get back the original financial outlay, plus make a profit, the same with any company, or, business. This is a niche market, I don't suppose the established 3rd party creators/developers that have been around for several years have consoles, so, learning how to develop assets for that market may be a timeconsuming effort, possibly for very little return, which stops them proceeding in the first place. They might not get a steady income stream like they do in TS2020, so, they decide there is no financial reason for them to change their current business strategies.
    Another thing is that they might not want to work with DTG, and have to give 50%, or, whatever, to them for all sales made. I haven't a clue as to what commission DTG gets, but, if it takes away a good amount of money for successfully creating something, 3rd party developers might not want to get involved and just stay as they are in TS2020, getting the right return for their financial outlay that they expect for their creations, with an already popular customer fanbase eager to obtain their wares.

    Cheerz. Steve.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
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  3. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Yup, pure conjecture. My 2 cents would be:
    1. It's faster (cheaper) to develop for TS than TSW because of the lower fidelity of TS. This is the same reason that DTG said that TSW routes they produce will not be as long as the routes they do in TS.
    2. The TS market is mature, steady, and used to paying for expensive DLC and will do so. They know they can put out a certain type of route and X% of the TS player base will buy it, making it less of a risk. TSW daily users on PC are half of TS. While they have more users on console, there is the risk that console gamers may scoff at paying $30 or $40 for a new route. So again, sticking with the tried and true TS PC playerbase is more of the sure thing. I can imagine that Just Trains for example may be wary of spending more time (which means money) developing a route for TSW that may not sell as well at their usual pricing structure OR that they'd have to discount heavily to move.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
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  4. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Well, looks like DTG are going to need to find a way to make inroads on PC because they're about to have competition with SimRail2021 announced today.
     
  5. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't call that competition. Lol
     
  6. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    And how we laughed at those silly little Japanese cars.. ha ha ha..... No one's going to buy one of those!
     
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  7. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like another trainz.
     
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  8. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Although I admit SimRail 2021 sounds too good to be true, so I doubt it'll be as good as it looks, it's too early to rule it out yet. I know I wishlisted it. Once it's released I'll keep an eye on reviews and gameplay videos. They announced a few things I'd love to see in TSW. I'm curious how SimRail 2021 turns out. :)
     
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  9. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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  10. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I hadn't seen that before, it does look promising, especially with the signal box mode. It will be interesting to see how it develops.
     
  11. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Anything in the same genre is competition. It has the potential of taking customers away in such a small niche market. It canalso be a good thing because if it does look like it's going to be serious competition then DTG will have to take note and make sure they are on top of their game.

    The company developing it appear to have been involved in developing simulators for Bombardier, so looks like they just may know what they're doing.

    https://www.simkol.pl/

    So there, LOL!
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
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  12. arapajoe3

    arapajoe3 Member

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    I think it is a competition for DTG. The game seems to be fine and, most importantly, if SimRail2021 has development tools now or in the future (as far as we know TSW2 will never have them they said) I think it will be the end of TSW2. Hopefully this new game will shed light on an open simulation of trains, with a new business philosophy. I am looking forward to and curious about this new simulator because I put the TSW franchise aside as soon as TSW2 was announced.
     
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  13. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Strong competition is always good. It forces the developers to produce high quality content instead of ‘we can get away with producing any old rubbish because we own the train simulator market’.
     
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  14. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    This looks to be an arcadey game.
     
  15. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    If they include the option to run around and put up posters and fire extinguishers, you may be right.

    However, if the company website is to be believed and they are responsible for developing actual real life simulators for actual real life training of actual real life train drivers, then there is real potential.

    Certainly gives them as much credibility as a company mainly made up of enthusiasts when it comes to knowing what they are doing.
     
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  16. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    *laughs in TSW*

    You can't base an unreleased game from a trailer and a few teaser screenshots. TSW may be the most popular train simulation game, however it doesn't mean it's the best nor the most accurate when it comes to sounds and physics.

    Sounds and physics are one the most important things when it comes to a simulator, as opposed to fancy graphics.
     
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  17. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    DTG don't own the market though, I don't know why people want to perpetuate the myth!

    Trainz has been around a lot longer than any of the DTG titles, in fact it must be approaching 20 years as a brand. There are others too. I would say currently DTG have perhaps the two best overall simulators at the moment but there are several alternatives. An early route for TS1 was used as a training simulator if I recall for the Glasgow Airport Rail Link by Thomson which was never built in the end.

    Obviously more competition is great, although personally I would only look at this new simulator if it had some UK content as that is what I know and what I am most interested in, that is why I have never tried Run8.
     
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  18. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    It says it has 500 km of routes but whether it takes away business from TSW may well be where those routes are. DTG bases its franchise around UK, German and US routes. None of those screenshots look like East Croydon to me.

    Which poses a question. What’s more important to Train Simmers. Locations that interest them (say because they’re interested in US railways) or the fidelity of the simulation? For me I’m interested in British content pretty much exclusively.
     
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  19. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Same here. I do buy routes from other countries but not so often, although things like the TGV and Arosa line interest me. If it didn't have any British content I wouldn't purchase it at all. So for me whilst the simulation experience is important location overrides that.
     
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  20. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    It looks like it's based on Polish railways and it's still a year away from release. It will however be interesting to watch it's progress.
     
  21. malikrthr

    malikrthr Well-Known Member

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    Correct, Trainz has been around since 2001 and has evolved over the years via new editions and Service Pack Builds.
     
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  22. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Yup, the screenshots and video shown have all been of Polish railways. You can see their take on PKP Intercity wagons in a few shots, and what seems to be a very faithful recreation of Warszawa Centralna station.
     
  23. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    If they can delivery on even 50% of their claims, you bet you it will be competition, Not necessarily, "oh, I'm ditching TS or TSW" but it it takes more of TS or TSW player's time, and thus money, or lowers enthusiasm and desire to buy DLC for TSW, then it is absolutely competition. It's a train sim claiming to offer realistic physics, stock, and routes, with graphics that seem to be somewhere between TS and TSW.
     
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  24. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Looking at it from another perspective, I'd love to see SimRail2021 and Derail Valley release on next-gen consoles. More train sims the better, as far as i'm concerned.
     
  25. ex-railwayman

    ex-railwayman Member

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    Yes, especially, as it states it will have extensive multiplayer mode, which will sweeten a few trainsimmers interests somewhat.

    Cheerz. Steve.
     
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  26. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    The train simulation genre does honestly need more competition, but after looking at SimRail2021....yeah...I don't think there will actually be many customers who will have to chose between that and TSW.

    Its published by PlayWay S.A, these are the same people behind games like Car Mechanic Simulator, Cooking Simulator, errm...."Thief Simulator"? Yeah, they're the type of folks that put out a ton of those "simulation" games. And while they're fun for an hour maybe, these games are actually really shallow and get old really quickly.

    Here are the things that stood out to me the most:
    It seems that SimRail2021 is made on Unity. But TSW on the Unreal Engine absolutely blows it out of the water in terms of graphical fidelity. As far as I can tell, you cannot get out of the cab in SimRail, and explore the stations (a seriously under-appreciated feature). There's no mention of a full-fledged timetable. What does "realistic physics" mean? That term is thrown around extensively, but half the time those games don't live up to those claims. They didn't exactly show a good feel for the physics in the game, there wasn't much in-cab acceleration or deceleration.
    Really, the only thing its got going for it is the multiplayer and dispatch modes (and perhaps the weather thats generated based on real-life weather reports, which I think is actually pretty neat).
    Yes, its unreleased and we only have a handful of screenshots and a single video, but nonetheless SimRail2021 would still have very big shoes to fill.

    Also, I think its hilarious when people say how TSW is a very arcadey sort of game more than a simulation game...but then something like this comes along and it just really puts things into perspective ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2020
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  27. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    LOL.. you mean like there wasn't in TSW until December 2019 when it was added as an update? ;)
     
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  28. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    Head sway? Well yeah there's that too, but I meant a short clip where they take a train thats stopped and giving it some throttle. Something to show that the trains got a bit of weight to it
     
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  29. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you mean. It either accelerates realistically or it doesn't. Can you link to the video?
     
  30. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    I hope it will be atleast decent. More good train sims is only good for the players. It's not marriage, you're allowed to play more sims. Especially if they will be focused on areas that are heavily underrepresented, like the central/eastern Europe, despite having one of the densiest rail network.

    For me, one of the major shortcomings of DTG sims is the Uk/Germany/US bubble the sims seems to be stuck on. I know there are most likely freeware content outside of this bubble, but trying to get dependencies for 3rd party freeware tracks can be insane pain.
     
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  31. rabid

    rabid Member

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    Well for a bit of variety Rivet Games will be bringing a Swiss route to the table, although I question the choice of the Arosa line: in TS1 it's very steep, sinuous, and mind numbingly slow for most of the way (30-35 kmh), even worse than the West Somerset Railway, although the scenery is far more interesting. The Albula or Bernina lines are much more enjoyable drives I find.
     
  32. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Certainly if you put what is on the roadmap which what we have so far it is starting to increase the variety somewhat. Still there is a long way to go and I suspect in five years time there will be a lot of niche interests covered, including steam I very much hope.
     
  33. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    There is also a French route in production.
     
  34. cwf.green

    cwf.green Member

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    I really don't think camera acceleration is a good gauge of physics realism...
    The TSW camera acceleration isn't even that realistic, just check the Class 377 and read the thread made earlier by a former driver of these trains. Ultimately camera acceleration (in my opinion) is more a feature of immersion rather than realism. If the camera acceleration feels real but the trains behave incorrectly, then you can't really call the simulator realistic.

    To be fair, when TSW was released in 2017 and the brakes were (more) messed up, the diesel locomotive throttles acted like cruise control etc, I think it is apt to call TSW at that point arcadey.
     
  35. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I know the "Albula or Bernina lines are much more enjoyable", but we're living under Covid and Rivet have recently researched the Arosa line for TS.
    Sadly route diversity will remain restricted to the already known until current travel restrictions are relaxed.
     
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  36. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    Imho, you should be able to adjust how much of cab sway/movement you want, as it is more a preference/immersion thing, and as you said, not really a indication of realism.

    It were bugs, that were fixed. So, no. Most of the systems modeled in TSW are modeled to higher detail that they ever were in TS. Like brake pipe pressure changes are not instantaneous, but are propagating properly through the train.

    Yes, TSW has collectibes, ap points, and medals. But TS has weird scoring system that promotes unsafe driving and simple controls. But neither of them are arcady, both are trying to simulate train operations.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
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  37. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    I've sort of mentioned it already, but I wasn't quite exactly referring to headsway. Even before that feature was implemented, you could still get a good sense of a trains weight, especially on a more extreme case like the trains on Sand Patch Grade. You couldn't just go straight to notch 8 on the throttles and get up to speed.
    Much of the footage they showed of SimRail2021 was just of trains whizzing by at line speed. But nothing gave off a real sense of physics simulation going on. If it was a feature they labeled, surely it'd be something they would be proud to show off?

    Its still in development at the moment, so I'm not exactly criticizing the game for that. But it does leave one wondering...
     
  38. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘I know the "Albula or Bernina lines are much more enjoyable", but we're living under Covid and Rivet have recently researched the Arosa line for TS.
    Sadly route diversity will remain restricted to the already known until current travel restrictions are relaxed.‘

    They don’t walk the lines do they? I’d always figured that they now used photographs (particularly for non contemporary lines), videos and for the topography and track something like google maps. Not saying that a visit wouldn’t be useful but I doubt if it’s critical these days.
     
  39. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    I'd imagine that the videos and images they can reference online don't always give everything that they could need. I've heard stories of how the guys doing artwork and models always take tons of photographs, particularly of things up close, that way they can get an idea of every little detail. Right down to the color and texture of a brick. They take note of a lot of details, even the small and miniscule things.
     
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  40. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘Every little detail’

    You clearly have a very different version of TSW than I do.
     
  41. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    I must've missed the part where I was talking about TSW... do you mind pointing it out?

    No, I was just talking about the process in general. This sort of thing happens in many different applications, in many different games, its not just exclusive to a single game studio.
     
  42. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    You were suggesting in a TSW forum that due to the Covid restrictions on travel ‘Sadly route diversity will remain restricted to the already known until current travel restrictions are relaxed‘. Perhaps you were talking about Mario Kart?

    For simulation games the concept is to build a reasonably accurate representation not ‘every little detail’. In many cases the representations are of historical situations, so lacking a Tardis you can’t go back and takes contemporary photographs of the exact situation. Want to model a HST - there’s more than enough material, photos, books, videos to provide you with the information you need. Want to model Paddington. Exactly the same. And all that is fine because we understand that what we are buying isn’t exact. It just needs to feel good enough. Generally as well, for performance reasons, ‘every little detail’ can’t happen and for many games (including TSW) colors are rarely totally life like. Generally as well the closer you get to items (if you were looking for every little detail) quality degrades.

    There are reasons that new DLCs may have issues in the time of Covid. Lack of ability of teams to work together in the same office, lost opportunity for inexperienced staff to get direct mentoring from those with more experience and financial issues might be some of them. But for new route diversity not being able to travel is an inconvenience not a show stopper.
     
  43. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    Don't complicate things. Again, all I'm talking about is the idea that the people who handle arts and models in a game would ideally have as much access to something as they can.
    You posed the question if a visit would even be necessary these days. All I'm suggesting is that yes indeed, even these days a visit would be greatly useful. Sometimes the images you see online aren't of great quality, or perhaps you would need to see something from a particular angle. Sometimes the information isn't even out there at all. By doing an in-person visit, you have the opportunity to access things that the public wouldn't normally see.
    This isn't anything new. I'm sure the guys who build racing games go to the tracks and record every sweeping turn and angle. DTG probably sends their guys to take close-up pictures of train bogeys.

    Whether or not all of the above applies to the in-game models itself was outside the scope of the original question I was trying to answer. Of course you're not going to get every bump, every rivet done correctly on a model. That's obvious. But you still get all the details and the reference photos nonetheless. It goes further than just getting the colors right. Its getting the depth, the texture, the material itself right. To be 'good enough', just like you say.
     
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  44. cwf.green

    cwf.green Member

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    I would disagree that it was fixed. Yes, the weird throttle behavior was fixed (after something like 1 or 2 years) but the brakes are still unrealistic as can be seen from my thread in the Technical Reports section. Also, I think some of the third party creations like Armstrong Powerhouse and Virtual Railroads have addons that are more realistic than anything currently in TSW.

    I agree that if the developers are striving for realism but not initially (or currently) achieving it fully, it does not mean that the game is arcady since they are actually striving for realism. But if major systems like the brake system is still incorrectly modelled after nearly 4 years, maybe they aren't trying so hard or they've reached the level of "realism" they are satisfied with?
    I think you can hear it a bit in this interview. There's a lot of talk of not making it "not fun" for the player, but that's usually a bad idea in simulators.

    It seems like you are only making comparisons between DTG-TS and DTG TSW while one of the major upsides with TS is that you are not constrained to only using DTGs addons but third party addons as well.
     
  45. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Active Member

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    In my opinion both TS and TSW lack replayability. So when you finish one route scenario that's it. Everything after feels the same. I think because of lack of any randomness or unpredictability in any part of the game or in any form. Another factor is really slow process of introducing new core features. So even every new route sims like seen before. IMHO with every new route game should introduce a little more to the complexity of the railway system, because it is based around it not just shiny objects. Its a shame because it has the potential. But lacks creative thinking.
     
  46. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘DTG probably sends their guys to take close-up pictures of train bogeys‘

    So for a North American DLC DTG fly someone to the US to take photos of the ‘bogeys’ rather than relying on the vast amount of information available to,them. I think that you ‘probably’ don’t understand much about the financial limitations that apply when producing train game software.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  47. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    I'll be watching SimRail 2021 over the next few months... will be good to see how it develops.
     
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  48. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    Not only in TS world, but everywhere where some degree of scenery accuracy is required, research is big part of development. Sure, you have lots of hight quality photos of Paddington, or any other busy station, but not so much for small swiss mountain stations, or remote places like the mountain passes in the US.

    Trying to piece bits of pieces from online sources together, with various quality, lightning conditions, from various timeframes might in the end cost you more in manhours than a few day trip to the US. And don't forget that you don't have to fly people, you can hire a local contractor. ;)
     
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  49. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    A good comparison is comparing the Class 377 in ECW compared to their enhancement pack. The latter, understandably, is so much more detailed, sounds a lot better, and has more features.

    With TSW, there’s no enhancement packs, so it’s ‘all in one’ which is where corners are cut to keep the price and development time down. Us ‘hardcore’ players still don’t have that level of detail in TSW yet.
     
  50. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘And don't forget that you don't have to fly people, you can hire a local contractor’

    Yes you can and no they don’t.
     

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