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Tsw Just Not Cutting It With The Pc Crowd!

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by longo239, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    Except it was! The official line from DTG back in 2016 was that TS20xx development was being ended - that TS2016 would be the final version of the game, to be replaced by the next new generation PC train simulator. A simulator, that yes would have a much needed new game engine, but would build upon the successful concepts of the popular and much loved TS20xx series. Note, back in 2015/16 there was not a single mention of consoles! At the outset DTG were selling their new game concept to all the existing PC players. Then out of the blue, came a 'very exciting surprise announcement' in early 2018 (that DTG hyped up for weeks in anticipation), that TSW was to be launched on consoles - which came as a big shock to many PC players. At that stage, unknowingly, they had been (effectively) testers for TSW Founder's Edition. The poor PC players at the time were hopeful that said big announcement was going to be the grand unveiling of a comprehensive editor or similar big feature. But no, it was the 'thrill' that CSX Heavy Haul was coming to console. Except 'Heavy Haul' wasn't - only then did we see the true beginnings of TSW/TSW2020/TSW2 'proper'.

    TS20xx annual release & support still carries on (hence now TS2021 rather than TS2016), but I believe it's fair to say this was originally not likely envisaged by DTG. It has clearly been far harder to develop TS2 than was anticipated/hoped. I think also reasonable to assume, that it was becoming increasingly apparent to DTG, that TSW2 as a direct replacement for TS2021, is going to be an increasingly hard sell for many of their existing devoted TS player base. Hence the official line now being, that we have two different produts aimed at serving different target audiences. It would certainly be interesting to know what proportion of long-term TS1 customers have truly switched to TSW. I'm sure DTG have a pretty good idea.

    You're correct, in that modding was never going to be simple, from the very moment they took the decision to make TSW cross platform identical. It seems (& I realise other factors also likely involved) that move towards cross platform compatibility & the focus on the console market in particular, effectively doomed the release of a true editor for PCs. Note, right up until late 2018, that PC players were actively being told by DTG that such a comprehensive editor was well on the way - in late development stages. We'd even had an extensive demo from Matt P showing off said editor; being told this was pretty similar to what would be released i.e. an all singing dancing set of tools (complex for sure, but doable for many in the TS community). So for good reason this is toolset that was anticipated by the PC crowd.

    Agreed, for commercial DLC it seems it can be a real headache for developers. Though its never really been a signficant problem for the long established and thriving Train Sim community producing freeware content. The same community that has played a significant role in making popular train sims (such as MSTS, Train Simulator, Trainz etc.) such a long term success. The commercial & not for profit work creations complement each other. These iconic simulators have become a true hobby for many, rather simply a one-off game.

    I'm not sure I would say take for granted. There are certainly a powerful suite of tools in TS20xx that significant player numbers have utilised and enjoyed over the years. Offering all sorts of flexibility to game play, and allowing for the production of some amazing player creations. This suite of tools (& the impressive outputs in what could be achieved by ordinary players) certainly set a high bench mark for any successor train simulator made by DTG. Whilst I'm sure players expected things to be different in the way the new sim was crafted & presented itself - I don't believe anyone anticipated the basic core features that made the TS20xx series so popular, would more or less be entirely stripped-out. I may be wrong, perhaps lots of pople did! However, personally I had assumed (seems perfectly reasonable based on what DTG had lead everyone to believe) that if anything players would be able to do more with the new sim, not considerably less (as currently the case).

    It's no good belittling PC players as silly & selfish. They were badly mislead! It's not what they were told to expect. There have been some very dramatic (sharp) turns during the development process over the last few years - that PC players (when they bought into the whole TS2 concept) didn't see coming. If as a console player you cannot see how development of TSW1/TSW2 for the PS4 & Xbox may have significantly throttled (back) the PC platform, then I'd politely suggest it's you that might be being just a tad selfish with such a biased stance. Please remember a very signficant number of PC players and have supported (with very deep pockets) and closely followed the development of TS for many years. Quite a few of the fan base going right back to approx 2008.

    You've lost me on this one. All I know is according to the Steam Charts, not many people right now are playing TSW on the PC platform. And considerably more are still playing TS2021. I confess to having absolutely no idea how TSW2 is doing on the various console platforms. Perhaps it has large player numbers on these platforms? If that were the case, it would seem to counter your argument that it's silly to perceive TSW as a 'console game'. I guess only time will tell what really gives. Let's keep our fingers tightly crossed, that in time, that the train sim evolution works out well for all players.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  2. Tank621

    Tank621 Member

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    I have never once played TSW, or TSW2 on Xbox or Playstation, I have only played on PC, so I would suggest you do not make wild assumptions about me and my 'biased' opinions thank you very much.

    As for that last point I very clearly specified PC players, I am saying it would be more interesting to me, to see how many new players are coming to TS vs TSW.
     
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  3. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    And it would mean nothing, and I wouldn't be interested. It's not about what routes you are GIVEN.. it's about what routes you can make, or find yourself... same with scenarios.... same with liveries... You all think it's about shiny graphics. It's not. And what's the point of just giving routes? What are we to drive on these routes? Will I be able to run a IC225 in LNER livery from York to King's Cross? Will I be able to run a Scot Rail Inter7City HST from Edinburgh to Dundee? Will I be able to drag a pendolino with a 57 Thunderbird?

    Plus, you're only referring to DTG routes I presume? What about my Blackpool North to Preston route? (On Track Sim), will THAT be on TSW? What about Settle to Carlisle 1975 (workshop)? What about South Lancs and Cheshire? (Wotawally). The list is massive. Will THESE be on TSW? Just Trains Scottish ECML? Can I drive the entire East Coast mainline from King's cross to Waverly?

    Seriously, if you think you can just port over DTG routes from TS to TSW and we'll all come running, you're crazy.

    You just don't get it, and I think you just don't get what it is about TS that makes me use it, and un-install TSW from my hard drive, which I have, because I've not touched it for months. I can't do anything with TSW once I've driven the scenarios - it just becomes ground hog day.

    You clearly just don't get it.
     
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  4. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    I can only go on what I read, even if misinterpreted. And that was your pushing the console perspective as not being a limiting factor on the development of TSW. You sounded like quite the console fan. Apologies if I got that wrong, & misunderstood. Though I'm genuinely baffled as to why a fully dedicated PC player would take such a stance. So hence the confusion, rather than a wild assumption.

    So you've only played the PC version of TSW/TSW2. Have you played/followed TS20xx over the years? If you have, then hopefully you will recognise some of the very valid concerns of PC players, with the way TSW has evolved. Hence my reply, which tries to clarify the history regarding the evolution of TSW, & address the OP as to why TSW (possibly) may not be cutting it with the PC crowd. If you haven't, then hopefully my points might give you food for thought. Cheers.
     
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  5. Mich

    Mich Member

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    I gotta be honest I don't get what you're talking about, lighting's miles better than TS, no question about it in my mind. I have no clue what you're talking about with Paddington, TSW looks much better than the old TS counterpart not only in texturing but in modeling. Also while I agree that things like the skybox and sounds need work in TSW I wouldn't say they're worse than the bulk of Classic stuff, certainly wouldn't say they're so bad as to be laughable by any stretch. Texturing across the border I think is nicely done, again don't really have much problem with what they've done quality wise. I can agree that having some more heavily weathered engines would be nice, but ultimately that doesn't take away from the quality of the textures themselves, it just means they're high quality clean textures as opposed to dirty ones. Visually I completely understand how it's a next gen leap easily, I have no major complaints on that front.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
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  6. olikas.g

    olikas.g Member

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    Without extensive googling I have no idea what these are. Although I’d like to drive on some Scottish routes I don’t know how would my enjoyment of the game would change seeing a different skin for 2 seconds would change my current enjoyment of the game. If DTG or any third party would make this available, I have no problem with that. Our taste for train sim games differ and there’s nothing wrong with that.
    Would I pay for a different skin for the same loco? Nope. I don’t use the livery editor because it is not the colour of the train the is the highest priority for me. Better looking scenery. Trees that look realistic and don’t noticably repeat is way more important. Houses that and other objects blending into the scene is even more important. I don’t even care about station modelling as long as they feel real and the shadows work.
    I want all the switches and nobs and screens to be simulated because then I can decide how much I want to learn about a train. I can’t get into the cab of a real train let alone drive one. But I would love to pay more for a single loco if the simulation detail is realistic.
    I would also want to put a class 66 or more in fron of a long freight train in America and see which loco is more powerful. You can’t do this in real life but in a simulation game it should be possible.
    Since the game is heading to how I like it, I don’t complain on the forums hardly ever. I understand that some people are not satisfied and that is alright. But be a bit more open to what other people think about the game. Even if I had a PC, Classic TS is not a game I like at all. Even if it already goves some of the features I want.I can’t walk around, I can’t explore. And it looks ancient. To some like me, it does matter.
     
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  7. ex-railwayman

    ex-railwayman Member

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    I can't understand why the furore over how many players are on Steam playing xyz games, that is not a benchmark at all. I very rarely play online, because I don't want any interruptions, and I'm sure there are thousands like me, ergo my 26,000 hours on Steam means nothing, when after playing the game for 11 years, in reality I could be on 266,000 hours by now, you just can't take Steam's statistics as being a true reflection of the number of gamer's playing at any time of the day, or, night.

    Cheerz. Steve.
     
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  8. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    I'm truly glad to hear you're enjoying TSW, and it's helpful to hear your point of view - and expression of what's important to you, and what isn't in way of features for the game.

    It neatly sums up DTG's big dilemma (perhaps major problem) in the direction of travel for the new game. They're trying to cater for everyone, from folk like yourself (not too worried about the overall detail/realsim of trains as per a true game-simulator would, & clearly the graphics including scenery are very important to you), & on the other hand those players that want more overall train/railway realism; plus more control over their setup and chosen features & content used. And that's not in anyway meant as a dig, players understandably have different wants/needs.

    From what I personally currently see, it does though seem like the 'sim' is very much shaping up in the direction of travel for the more casual player. Customers that are fine living with what content is provided to them (as dictated by the developer) with very little option for customisation or true creativity. However, in the other camp, myself included, we have a large section of players where this just doesn't work. They want more flexibility over content & detail (including editing existing content, & creating new stuff). Significant numbers also have no real interest in the first person walk about exploring options, & feel the focus should be very much on the driving & train operations. I'm the exact opposite to you, in that the stations and immediate trackside accuracy is very important to me, the world scenery far less so (as long as it's reasonably attractive & semi-accurate with key landmarks and the right 'feel' - then I'm content). It's my idea of a nightmare to be having to walk all over the place & collect things. I just want to be able to explore all the trackwork via diverse train operations, and enjoy the passing scenery from the immediate vicinity of the driver train.

    For myself realsim of trains (good diversity of protoypical correct liveries for various eras), being able to create custom consists (both to make as accurate as possible, plus add variety) is really important. Sounds are also a big priority for me. if anything more so than than the graphics. Good sound just adds so much to the overall immersion. And right now the TSW trains look magnificent, but the sounds in my opinion are generally weak (& sadly there's very little that can be done about by the end user). I would like to build my own little route or two, or at least edit/tweak existing routes as I chose - but this just isn't currently possible. I'd also like to see a far greater diversity of true scenarios, with all manner of imaginative tasks and operations, rather than simply driving the same A-B run back & forth many times. Instead to have all manner of tasks, and unexpected surprises/events thrown at me - to both maintain interest & fully challenge my driving skills. Again, right now this isn't possible in TSW, & I'm not sure whether it ever willl be given the way the game is currently evolving. And DTG haven't really given any indication of their intent, and how they envisage things developing in the medium to long-term. I think another reason why right now quite a few folk are simply holding off from investing in TSW, waiting to see what happens.

    So obviously very different priorities amongst players over what is important for enjoyable game-play. I strongly suspect TSW is going to struggle to give both sides of the train-sim audience the experience they are seeking. I'm only hypothising, but it may come down (if the decision hasn't been made already) to actively prioritise one group or another i.e. what is going to lead to best long-term sales over the various gaming platforms on which TSW has now been released. Does such a game have longevity with the console crowd, I really don't know - having only ever been a PC player, this target audience is a complete mystery to me. Though presumably DTG are confident the console market is viable long-term, and such platforms are seen as a very big potential market for the future of the game. Cheers.
     
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  9. olikas.g

    olikas.g Member

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    Thank you for the reply. This is a true discussion, not a shouting match. A bit of faith is restored. :)

    On the topics, you mentioned. Although consoles are a bit limited, but I don't think there is a big difference in player needs between console and PC players. If you check some of the PS and XBOX discussions, they are not much different from the ones int he PC section.

    I think the biggest difference is user's expectation of
    • the assists for the driving experience (e.g. I'd love to turn on debug hints that would indicate why the train is not moving vs. I want to have detailed manuals),
    • the accuracy of the models, assets, scenery, etc,
    • attention to quality.
    In my opinion the last one is a completely different category as the above. DTG can decide what they try to achieve for the first two. That is an artistic decision and we can either like it or not. If they aim for picking litter and putting up posters, then it is a feature. But I expect them to implement it correctly, I don't want to find unreachable collectibles or crashes. If they decide to implement braking systems simulating reality, then I expect it to simulate reality to the level what the engine allows. And I expect it to work regardless of the time of the day.
    If they decide to not implement three sidings for a station, then it is their artistic decision, not a bug. But I do expect the station to be believable and not clipping or wonky. Those are quality issues.

    I wish they would be more open explaining what was an artistic artistic decision and what was intentional. E.g. unaccessible tracks in TVL is an artistic decision. Displaying them on the map is a bug. Using a sound for a locomotive close enough is an artistic decision, not playing the sound is a bug.

    On the editor: they should design whether they want that as a feature. If they want to provide a cross platform scenario editor, they should do it bug free. All features they wanted to add should be working. Lack of features are not bugs.

    I think you get the point. If they would stick to this, we could make a decision whether this is what we want. If I wanted to drive cars in the game, then it is not for me. If I wanted to drive a train, it is a game for me. If I want to edit scenery, it is not a game for me. Binary decisions.
    I like the idea of the roadmap, but I'd love it even more if they would have some long term direction. e.g. "We are not planning implementing steam trains, if it is a must for you, then it is not a game for you. If we change our mind in the future, we will let you know." The current raodmap only says that: "in the next two weeks we will not planning steam trains." So should I check in in 14 days or 1 year? There are a handful of features that the majority is keen on (steam, sharing os scenarios, different countries, etc). (based on my selection bias based on this forum.)

    I wait for another 3-4 months before I pick up the game again. I give them time to fix all the major bugs (see above for the definition of bugs) with the preserved collection and new routes. I also wait for the next gen xbox. I'm not in a hurry to get back to gaming, I have other hobbies. Life is too short to waste it on crashes.
     
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  10. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    To me this is the most important thing too. If they don't want to simulate something (like LZB until recently), then that is their decision, however if it's included then it should work.
     
  11. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    It's very difficult to seriously argue at this point that TSW isn't a console first title. When you're at the point where you're saying through official channels, openly, that you won't introduce basic PC tools and functionality your playerbase has come to expect because consoles wouldn't have it...you're a console first game...literally. You're deciding what the PC game does and does not get based on what the console versions would be capable of.

    TSW WILL NOT, in any way reach the heights that the old TS series did on PC without an editor. It simply cannot happen given the freeware and modding community support. And honestly, it's becoming apparent that DTG really are ok with that. They seem to be ok with alienating their PC player base because they're putting all their chips in the console basket. We'll see how it goes for them.
     
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  12. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    It’s obvious that TSW is aimed for the causal and console market, as this is the market which attracts the most amount of players.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that, however DTG has to stop pretending that TSW is the next revolutionary train simulator and a replacement for TS1, for people that actually care about simulation and physics.
     
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  13. Crosstie

    Crosstie Active Member

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    I doubt if anyone seriously believes that TSW will replace TS 20xxx.They are completely different animals. But, in terms of the train simulator genre, you can't deny that TSW is a major leap forward. It's a first person game in which the player can move around the cab, the interior and exterior of the train, the surrounding area, all the while doing tasks that are not possible in TS. In my view, it's real railroading. Personally, though I have thousands of hours and dollars invested in TS, I haven't touched it since TSW2 came out and I'm not sure if or when I will. I think I've "moved on".
     
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