Tsw - Simulation Or Not?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by joerg.lange, Dec 30, 2021.

  1. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    The tutorials are a symptom of an underlying problem…we all know we can skip them, but in an ideal world we shouldn’t have to.

    The thread is about ‘sim or game’ and I feel that these niggles detract from the experience, and make it feel much more gamey. Action points (which do nothing at all), collectibles, trophies, safety systems off by default, no information on the use of lights, doors etc…all things that detract from the simulation side of things.

    To put it another way, an example of a parallel is MSFS having a tutorial along the lines of;

    - more throttle = go, less = stop
    - stick back = houses get smaller, stick forward = houses get bigger

    then copying and pasting verbatim that same tutorial each and every time anyone buys an aircraft for the game - “A lot of your time will be spent in the Pilot’s seat”

    It’s crazy to even think of it, so why is it ok in TSW?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  2. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Wether we like it or not basic piloting of an aircraft is more complicated and warrants a more in-depth tutorial compared to basic train driving.

    Using your same reasoning I could say that TSW is a simulator because it has no assists apart from having the HUD, while MSFS can not only have a lot of assists, but even has an option for complete automation, a less elegant option than spawning on foot and getting on a train as a passenger.

    To be honest, I don't care about AP, Collectibles, etc... and as long as they can be ignored and don't disrupt gameplay (unlike for example like the broken BKL CCTV which were a real immersion breaker when they were blank), those won't have any impact on realism.

    Would having a Forza Horizon 5 style season and accolades make MSFS a game instead of a Simulator? No. It's about what a game has, but what it hasn't. The lack of VNAV and in-depth system recreation on the MSFS Airliners make it less of a Simulator compared to adding more "game-like" features, as long as those can be ignored.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  3. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    The game is moving away from being a simulator with quite a few of the last DLC released

    Boston sprinter - incab signals broken on release, still broken 4 months later.
    London Brighton - Speed limit signs missing, aws broken.
    313 - broken and incorrect in cab safety systems
    Sherman Hill - incab signalling broken, no functioning distance counters. Banker locos not feeding air brakes, no working DPUs. I could go on and on with this DLC tbh
    DB 187 - broken LZB/AFB
    G6 - the exception to the rule unless someone knows better.

    If you want TSW to be taken seriously as a sim then you need more G6's and less Sherman Hills.
     
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  4. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    So we agree then?

    MSFS has a tutorial section that helps someone who has never flown before pick up the basics of flying. The basics of flying are the basics of flying so are applicable to all aircraft. The newby can access the tutorials whenever they see fit, but for those more knowledgable they never have to look at them. The in-depth aircraft specific stuff is then reserved for manuals. The same concept certainly applies to trains because, as you say, they are considerably simpler and easier to operate than most aircraft, and then by definition the same applies to a Train Simulator.

    As I said, for me it’s not about the tutorials per se. They are simply a symptom of what I see as an initial design problem in the game which is taking up time and resource every time a DLC is released. This design problem will take time and resource to rectify, but as it stands at the moment I believe that the flow of the game (and I use that word in the generic sense) leans more towards game rather than simulator.

    The driving bit does a fair job of simulating the basic aspects of driving a train. On the flip side, the rest of the product does have a gamey sense about it.

    It’s an interesting debate, or maybe it just seems so because I’m having to self-isolate and am bored to tears.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  5. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Should we not being doing a tutorial to learn about some of the new features of the locos?

    Sand Patch - Learn how to use the train counter.
    ICE - How do I turn cabin lights on, AFB
    Cant remember the route - What do these handles on the wagons do to the brakes?
    German - What PZB mode do I need to use.
    How to use Lap brakes
    What are all the different throttle or brake mods on the tube stock?
    How do I recover from an emergency brake in an F7
    What screens are useful on the MFD's
    How does AWS work

    That's where you will really help people to learn more, newbies too.

    Instead each one is Press A to go quick, press ' to brake.

    There's a constant flow of "we need this for the new people", equally teach us old hats something new too. Give beginner and advanced tutorials.
     
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  6. IndigoAK

    IndigoAK New Member

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    I don't think I've ever seen this argument in any other simulation category. People don't all gather and argue about whether American Truck Simulator and Euro Truck Simulator 2 are true sims or not because the answer from the vast majority is that yes, they are simulators. People also don't all gather around and argue about whether or not MLB The Show is a simulator because yes, it's a simulator.

    Simulators are not black and white. It isn't a matter of, "This game doesn't simulate enough things, therefore it's not a simulator." Simulators have a wide variety of level of accuracy and function, but they are all simulators in that they attempt to reproduce the use or engagement of something in a realistic, real-world setting.

    So yes, Train Sim World 2 is a simulator. A simulator aimed at a broad segment of players - like MFS20 and ATS/ETS2 - but still very much a simulator.
     
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  7. Choo choo

    Choo choo Active Member

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    Actually the AFB tutorial is covered in the 101 tutorial. Now it is different than the ICE since the latter is enabled via touch screen :) but it is a good start.

    Regarding the latest question - it is Riesa Dresden
     
  8. GuitarMan

    GuitarMan Well-Known Member

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    Personally - I'm on the simulation side. It's real enough BUT I can play it after a hard day at work and then an evening with my 5 year old and still enjoy it. (the second bit is key... without the second bit, it doesn't matter how real it is, there won't be enough people buying it for it to exist). Due to this, there will always be some "gamey" concessions, but this does not stop it being a sim.

    Some things that have been mentioned as missing from newer DLC (Engine rooms etc), there's been regular streams where they have stated the following (which in my opinion may be part of it):

    • There are some licences where they have been asked not to include certain parts of the functionality so that it prevents you from being able to learn to drive the real life counterpart
    • They are constantly looking for performance gains and optimisation (Engine rooms, I'm looking at you on this one).

    Now this is only my opinion and reading between the lines of comments in streams, and I could be way off... but for me if the above is part of the reason we don't have them, I'd rather have the simulation we have now, than no simulation.
     
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  9. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree with that, having one tutorial for each new loco is fine, but then there's stuff like the introductions, no reason why we need a introduction for every route. Especially in TSW when they'd just say some stuff on camera controls about the route. But even the more recent ones in TSW2 routes which attempt to be more useful aren't doing anything that the normal tutorials don't or couldn't do.

    There's also a few case where some locos are very similar to other existing content. For example why have new tutorials on Cane Creek for the SD40-2, and AC4400CW when they're already included in Sand Patch, which everyone already has? i also remember using the GP40-2 back in TSW, that controlled the same as the GP38-2. The controls are in slightly different locations sure, but if you remember what specific stuff you need on the GP38-2 you can relocate it fairly easily on the GP40-2. There's no reason any of these needed to be done, and they could've been cut to allow for resources to be diverted elsewhere.
     
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  10. flyingpaul

    flyingpaul Member

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    One point, which is related to the flight simulator comparisions, and was also discussed earlier and could be quite relevant.
    In basically all flight simulators (except Aerofly FS) we, as a user, can decide if we want to have "simple" airplanes, which are part of the standard pack, or if we want to spend more money (much more money infect) into better, more realistic aircrafts, with higher system depths from third parties. So the user is able to decide, if he/she wants to have a "game" or a "more simulator" experince.
    A similar thing can actually be seen in the TS world, but propably will never be seen in the TSW world. E.g. are you satisfied with the Kuju BR101 in TS? If so, that's cool for you, but if you want a "better, more realistic simulator" you can buy the virutal railroads BR101. That's something that will propably never happen in the TSW world, because this whole third party topic so enclosed around DTG and no one (except Maik) can create a fully realisitc loco for 13€.
     
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  11. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Thats exactly the problem!

    Let's look at X-Plane, for example: there are several well-documented SDKs. I can immediately start developing my own sceneries or aircraft or whatever - in any complexity. Neither is it necessary to contact Laminar Research (X-Plane developer), nor do I need their help to make a reasonably decent aircraft - I am only limited by my own skills and time.
     
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  12. IndigoAK

    IndigoAK New Member

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    X-Plane uses an in-house engine and was designed with mod support from the beginning.

    Unreal Engine 4 requires developers to either come up with their own UGC solution or buy one, and at this point the amount of work to refactor their UE4 project to feature such is probably going to be a massive headache. And given the quality of the game as-is, I'm not entirely convinced that Dovetail has skills necessary. This is one of the most poorly optimized UE4 games I've ever played - this is of course assuming that optimization has actually occurred, which is questionable.

    And finally: how many hobbyist modders are really going to have the skills and time necessary to create content for this game that matches the UE4 standard? Though given how hardcore train nerds can be, I probably shouldn't tempt fate with this question.
     
  13. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    You could ask the same question for the flight simulation scene. Apparently there are enough people there - and it would be no different here.

    But you're right: the big showstopper seems the Unreal engine - it's just not really meant for games of this kind (with extensive mod support). It's really only made for "fancy looking" - to put it bluntly.
     
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  14. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Can't help that but to me 'lighting' is essential in a sim. Take Cathcart for example. You got a nice shiny train but if you want to drive it at night you can't see anything, where is the 'simulator' experience in that given that in real life Train Stations are lit up like Xmas trees.

    I see what you are getting at but if we take your logic then getting in a driving suit, gloves and Helmet, Mario Kart can be a good F1 sim?
     
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  15. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    The key point is that the current tutorials are at the wrong level. Look up look down, look left and right, run about open a door etc. These things are pretty common to most games.

    Meanwhile there is nothing on PZB or LZB or AWS or DSD, not even where the buttons are, what they do, what the signs mean etc. So the actual questions players have like how do I make it move, how do I learn the signs and button acknowledgements etc are completely silent, I am sure players who aren't familiar with German trains might spend their entire lives wondering what the LZB button does but never trying it. Even a prompt which asks do you want to turn the safety systems on? This would at least alert them to the fact there are other aspects than speed up and slow down.

    There is a huge need for information in game so players can be able to operate the locos properly and to know what all the buttons do. Maybe even a wiki accessed via the pause menu which at explains safety systems and common issues (why won't it move?) for the route and loco the player is on.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2022
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  16. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I'm just putting it out there but I'm seeing this as a long thread which will rumble on for a few weeks.

    Anyone up for a justgiving account to fuel Matt and Sam up with some coffee and note pads?

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    If you consider visualizing when to reduce speed, how much brake force to apply and when. Then yes, it would be a good way to simulate your approach to the track….. :)
     
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  18. IndigoAK

    IndigoAK New Member

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    There's a huge difference between modeling buildings designed to be viewed from afar in a flight simulator and modeling dozens of kilometers of landscape and cityscape along a rail line. The level of detail along a route in TSW2 outstrips the level of detail in MFS20 handily.

    I stand by my opinion that there are very few, if any, hobby mod developers who would be willing to put in the time and effort needed to create a full route from scratch for this game.
     
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  19. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    You say that like route developers would need to build everything, in reality they could use assets from other routes to help build the bulk of the route. And DTG have flat out said their TSW editors are actually easier to use than the TS Classic ones, so yes, there'd absolutely be a freeware route scene if DTG were able allow it. Considering that the routes so far in TSW2 have been standardize freeware devs would have a huge advantage on that front compared to TS Classic's constantly rotating selection. As certain assets you'd know everyone would have, and thus wouldn't need to waste time making or worrying about if others have them.
     
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  20. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I think DTG is doing this, but why do you think the G6 is a fully realistic loco? It is OK, but fully realistic? No. A simulation never is fully realistic, not eave an million Euro train simulator used for training rail drivers. It always is a model of reality and what it simulates depends on its purpose.
     
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  21. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Come on man, it's called figure of speech, of course it's not literally a one hundred percent accurate loco, nothing can be. It's just far simpler to say "fully realistic" than to bore everyone to tears with a full nine paragraph sentence that reads like a legal document. Figure of speech is used everyday in normal conversation, including this very post, it's silly to treat this as if it's flawed reasoning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
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  22. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    upload_2022-1-2_19-39-26.png
    I've played a "few" train simulation games over the years, like everything each product exists on the sliding scale from game to simulator and a lot of it comes down to the intent and the degree the physics is modelled and the freedom the player has to undertake operating their train as realistically as they would like to and the inclusion of gaming aspects (e.g. points). Sometimes they set out to be a game and sometimes they set out to be a simulator. For the prices we pay, everything is a game really, but on the grand sliding scale I would put TSW2 towards the simulator end. There are some things that would firmly entrench more in the simulator camp, but really its pretty good now. I work on real railways and while there are a few things that make me cringe, there are less of them every update and every new route. My personal opinion is that TSW is firmly on the path to being a full simulator with aspects of game play. This is fine from my perspective because it is simultaneously trying to please two markets. Gamers who like something a bit different and simulation junkies who want the most realism possible. If asked by a layman I would say TSW was a simulator but don't worry because its got plenty of gameplay to keep you entertained and its easy enough to get going and gradually make it harder.

    That said, would I love a simulation mode that pushes the envelope - definitely, but I'm pretty happy with where we are right now too. I enjoy playing.

    Paul
     
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  23. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Nice graphic. the main benefit of tsw in my opinion, it can be a game for casual drivers, and also a sim for hardcore simmers to the same time. Yes not every dlc has the same deeph in simulation. And all that with a good graphics. Zusi3 might be way more detailed, but doesnt come to ts20xx graphics standard. (In my opinion an important aspect when it comes to "is it fun to play".)

    Maik from TSG said it well, its not all abut features, mostly we want also the "gimmicks" around the sim aspect (Doors, pis...). And i have to be very clear in this about my opinion: I like it we have collectables, can ride as passengers etc, in dtgs dlc this is well balanced.
    But when i see a route has 100 working Ice cream Tables, and the guard panel of the loco came with the route isnt working, train physics of an emu in a supposed DMU, such things move awai the Software from a Sim to a Game (in this particular case).

    I rather prefere extended gimmicks in trains, than in collectables, medals, scoresystem when it comes to either this or that.
     
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  24. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I would not call Railroads online a game. I think it is a simulator, but it does not try to simulate a real world. It simulates the different roles in railway operations better that TSW2 does and I think it simulates operating narrow gauge locomotives and wagons quite nice. Of course the economic aspects are pure game...
     
  25. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I do want to offend you in any way, sorry if you feel any anything wrong. I think my question is relevant and am not looking for legal answers (I am not interested n that), but what is the essential point that makes the difference for you? Compared, a bit arbitrary with the BR155 which also is a good and interesting loco and reasonably well received? I think it is relevant for a discussion in claiming DTG is just crating games and we should not take it seriously as a simulation. So what makes the difference? Why is DTG making games and Maik makes a simulation of a loco?

    I do not see a huge difference, so what should DTG change to be as good as Maik?
     
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  26. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    It does strike the balance between game and sim pretty well, I agree. Even though I do look for realism, I don't mind the collectibles but I don't think I've ever tried to find them all and as for the donkeys, well if I see one great, but if I don't - whatever. However, I do know players that live for collectibles and donkeys on a par or perhaps even more than the trains. That's cool, in gaming its really whatever floats your boat personally!

    Given I operate narrow gauge equipment in real life and have a current boiler license/ticket - no it doesn't :). Sorry. That said, if it makes you happy that is perfectly ok. My rating is pretty subjective and based on my personal experience and knowledge - your rating is different and that is perfectly ok too.

    Paul
     
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  27. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    There are many dtg dlcs come up to maiks standard.
    To answer the question straight, not cutting out features we had on locos years ago in tsw.

    As a "nohud" driver of the newest us loco from dtg "the sd70", i have to do maths inside the cab to know the time i need to count from the speed board according to my train lenght and actual speed.

    Slowspeed control was cutted out too and replaced by a static screen...

    Most of the uk classic diesel in tsw are really detailed, if dtg is going this lazy approach in those future dlcs, i guess they will piss off many customers including me.

    And we dont talk even about "gimmiks" here, its driving and sim relelated features.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
  28. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    And as second part, a quality check of third party is highly needed.

    3rd party devs are responsible by them self for their content, thats why i call it quality check rather than quality control.

    But in the end customers pay money and expect something in exchange. So i doubt the br187 had even a check from skyhook itself. The rear bogie of skyhooks 44cw is still the wrong way around.

    As a publisher i wouldnt accept all of that. Not starting with the cl.150.

    So if i get this right, the successfull business model of today says, a dlc with a ton of rework, fixing and disappointed customers made refunding is above the strategy make it right in the first place?
     
  29. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Nice one Paul.
    Nothing like arguing over the definition of words.
    Philosophers have made a good living over the centuries debating interpretations.

    I'm minded of when the president of France fell off the Orient express in his pyjamas in1920.
    Entering the nearby signal box he declared he was the president of France, only to be told he was speaking to Napoleon Bonaparte...
     
  30. graham.haddon

    graham.haddon Member

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    I have to admit I am not that familiar with German signalling but at least you seem to get approach control/release for diverging routes with speed reductions. Some routes have it on the UK side but not others, BML doesn't have it for instance where you are diverted through different platforms.
     
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  31. roysto25

    roysto25 Active Member

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    As far as I am aware (and I admit my attention does wander), in none of Matt's (or Roadmap) streaming has the specific question been presented and clearly answered as to exactly why elements or effects present on earlier locos/trains are absent on later models. Would it not be rational to have a check list for mandatory elements? Having seen real life loco engine/mechanical rooms, I can understand the serious modelling effort required and the diminishing returns (after all most of that equipment is rarely touched by a driver), but not so much for cabs and systems. There may be 3d modelling differences, but the operational coding must be very similar and the models are not created in a vacuum.
     
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  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I do think that there is a certain set of features which, if present in the real-world loco, must be modeled and reasonably accurate in any game loco, as a baseline (all having to do with operation, not chrome):

    • Onboard safety systems
    • Cruise/speed control
    • EOTD data display
    • Airflow meter
    • Train-length counter
    • Remote operation/DP

    Remarkably, these can be found in the very first TSW route, Sand Patch, but seem since to have fallen away.
     
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  33. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Creative Director Staff Member

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    It's worth keeping in mind that the very first TSW route took around 2 years to develop.
     
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  34. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Sam, excuse my naivety here, if they've been built for a train/route, do they not become a usable asset in some descript of the word that can be ported into new trains etc with the parameters adjusted for that loco or is it a ground up rebuild in each instance?

    I actually watched my very first Run 8 video earlier after reading here and the MFDs on their trains had no end of jiggery pokery, that said graphically it was toss.
     
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  35. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Creative Director Staff Member

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    The answer is "it depends". With Heavy Haul (as SPG was originally known) the team threw everything at the route and locos to see what stuck. Some features will have been resource intensive others will have been nice-to-have but ultimately not deemed vital for standard inclusion. We avoid reinventing the wheel where possible, so if a new feature is added on one route that is later used elsewhere some time will be spent to make it portable. Take PIS systems, animated crossings and the like and an example. Yes, we'd used the tech on individual routes, but hadn't made it portable in the first instance.

    Almost every DTG route pushes the functionality in one way or another, and if that test case proves to be a benefit to the game/simulator/whatever-semantic-word-you-prefer overall we'll look to use it again in the future.

    I know that one of the things Matt is working on in his EP role is creating a feature-set baseline for future releases.
     
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  36. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Fair point; but then, once a routine has been developed (a working EOTD, for example), it shouldn't take two years or anything like to adapt that routine for new locomotives without re-inventing the wheel. After all, once DTG mastered PIS and working crossing gates, they became standard parts of new releases. In the specific case of EOTD display, it works in the GP38, and the C40-8W has the exact same box in the cab- but it's a dummy, it does nothing. Why?

    And while I can understand the tactical business decision might have been that EOTD was a "nice to have" but not worth the dev time to implement on later US routes, I think that decision should have been revisited with the advent of Sherman Hill, because those great long trains simply cannot be driven effectively without it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
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  37. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    That’s actually reassuring to know and answer useful above. I’d always wondered and assumed it was time vs return as to why we’d get a new feature which then wasn’t in the next route (Dresden lighting just as an off the cuff example). A standard checklist of “routes should have” would be good and interesting to know once it’s all buttoned up and in practice

    Thank you.
     
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  38. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    It can be argued if TSW is a perfect Simulator or not, but its definetly not an arcade game. I think its strange that that are the only options here.
    TSW misses major aspects of being arcade or a standart game, like the relevance of progress. There are no Levels (that matter) and no archievements must be made to unlock parts of the content, except some decals in the livery Editor.
    You can have a million AP, or 10, and still do everything there is to do. You dont have to drive X miles to unlock class Xy, as its the case in real train games. Visit the Android or Apple app store, type in ,,train Simulator", try one out, and tell me TSW is a little game too.
    Of course its also not a full fledged Simulator, but what sucessful software that calls itself one is really true to life? I have both TS and TSW, and both reflect an idealistic image of driving trains, everything works except to spice things up a bit sometimes, like MCB failiures or ,,unforeseen" events in scenarios.

    I would even say a Simulator made for Entertainment should not be completely true to life, you wouldnt want a say 1:100000 chanche to run a NPC over, or standing an hour or two in front of a red light because of for example damaged OHLE or a broken down train infront of you, just because its realistic.....

    Of course TSW can be developed further to fulfill more aspects of simulating a Train, like Ebula or other countrys on board systems, but for me it counts as a Simulator as its not a game, and definetly not an arcade one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
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  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    What's ironic here are the comparisons to ETS, given how chock-full that is of unlockable content, effective "levels" - and above all miniaturized maps. Driving from Paris to Brussels in 10 minutes is not simulation!
     
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  40. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  41. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    It's also not realistic to have a full arsenal of aircraft and trains you can just pick from out the gate and go anywhere in the world. In that respect the fact ETS2 does have some sort of progression where things like your ability to drive directly impact your payment and how quickly you can take longer, better jobs is a massive plus. Compare that to TS/TSW's "here's a list of isolated tasks that have no bearing on each other" or MSFS' "do whatever" approach, and you can see that the progress does add a element of realism that is missing from those titles.

    I'd also say it's unrealistic to have all the scenery on the ground look like Monopoly pieces on a playmat, like in MSFS. The scenery for that however looks good from high altitude, which is what matters, and thus it doesn't matter it looks silly close up. That same logic doesn't apply to a truck sim, so yes, it does take away from the realism in the sense that it takes less time to drive, but it also adds realism in the sense that you have a road network that's handmade to look and feel like a actual road network, a task that any current AI generation would almost certainly struggle to do, especially at the detail SCS do it at currently.
     
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  42. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    "A list of isolated tasks that have no bearing on each other" - well that's just a normal day on a railway - you come and do whatever you're rostered for and you go home. No reason the game should be any different to that reality. The player providers the continuity and imagination.

    Of course you can follow the Journeys if that kind of progression makes you happy.

    Paul
     
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  43. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    By your logic so is trucking, that used packaging job and that milk job you took with your truck aren't nessicary related to each other. However both are jobs you do with your truck, and how you drive the former could affect how you do on the latter. Lets say while doing your used packaging job you end up tipping your truck and severely damaging it. That affects the job itself, as your cargo's now damaged, and thus your not getting payed out as well. But it also affects other things, now that your truck's damaged you're either gonna to repair it, which costs money you need for other things like truck upgrades or garages, or drive it as is, which means dealing with engines issues that could make you arrive late. However if you just drove better in the first place you would have gotten higher payment from the job, you wouldn't need to worry about repairs, and you'd be able to haul the next job without any reliability issues.

    Mind you I'm not saying there's no benefit's toward having something like TS' approach to things, there is something to be said for the more open nature of it. And indeed ETS2 is not THE most realistic thing in the world, and certainly in a number of is beaten by the others. But my point is that ETS2's economy does being in important elements which are absent in the other sims. And there's something to be said about having to worry about things like how you treat your vehicles.
     
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  44. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I was talking about trains Mich and not trucks and real life on a railway. Take my day today for example, I was rostered on to run Track Patrol which is an inspection run from one end of our line to the other and back. My constraint is when I have to be back. When I leave to meet that scheduled return time is entirely up to me (and on my head if I stuff it up). The main job is safety, but because I'm going from one end to the other often waiting for me is a pile of notices and other things to be delivered to stations along the route. That is nothing to do with my core role but its a task I'm given. Usually my machine for the day is allocated to me and I'm told what it is the day before, but sometimes I get to make a choice, sometimes its whatever happens to be in front when I open the big doors.

    I did the exact same job on Saturday but did not have the notices. Next time I do it I will likely have something different to do.

    When I'm rostered on the diesels, I turn up an hour before my train ready (TR) time to sign in, read and sign the notices, prepare my engine ready for the day and then for the rest of the day I do whatever my driver tells me to do.

    These tasks are completely unrelated and every time I turn up at the railway while I perform the core task of the role, the events that happen on the day are always different.

    Note that in both TS and TSW you can choose to play organised tasks, TS has Career mode where you progress through skills and points based scenarios and TSW has Journey mode where you progress through a related set of tasks over chapters on your route(s) of choice.

    You can play it whatever way makes you happy.

    Paul
     
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  45. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Genuine question, where is MSFS missing ‘realism’?
     
  46. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    The way Journey Mode's done doesn't have that random factor you mention though. You have a list you pick from whatever you want to do on the route, I decide what to play. Now that's not bad per say, but as you mention that's not realistic, in real life the company decides what tasks your given, and you have to do those tasks. It's not a list of stuff where you get to decide. You can't just forgo your little yard shunting job to flag down and drive the local passenger service. If you try and do that in real life you'll most likely not be driving any locomotive ever again.

    Also in real life if you don't do the job at a adequate level there's broader consequences for your career. For example if you're breaking couplings regularly because you keep driving into them at 10 MPH I would at least assume that you'd get a warning, and eventually they'd fire you if you weren't improving. So even if the jobs themselves are random the fact is there's still a broader connection in that you need to keep doing them well in order to keep working.

    Hope that's helped explain what I was trying to get across, my apologies if my walls of text are getting a bit boring.
    My first point was lack of a more structured career mode, free roam's fun, but it's undeniable that it's unrealistic. Even if I were as rich as Bill Gates I couldn't just decide to get in a 747 and buzz the tower at Area 51. Not that ETS2's career system's the ultimate thing in realism or anything, but I do think it's objectively more realistic than pure free roam.

    My second point wasn't that MSFS is unrealistic but that SCS' choice to go with a smaller world isn't necessarily less realistic. Yes the raw distance is not realistic, and MSFS has that over ETS2. But in order to do a full full scale map that would be at high enough detail to drive though it would require either a ridiculous amount of manpower, or AI autogen that's well beyond what we currently have. In that respect choosing to scale down the driving distance allowed them to make a truck sim with a lot more true to life detail. The alternative would've been to make something at the correct scale, but with little to no detail, or that's restricted to a very small portion to the world.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2022
  47. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Oddly I think we're saying the same thing but with different words.

    Note in journey mode, while you do have choice to bounce around, the intention is that you play them all in order and that is your journey. In that way it is much like real shifts.

    Paul
     
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  48. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Yes it's a bit bare and despite what some might say, despite the superior physics you do start to notice it, especially in the endless desert. Cane Creek in TSW actually does it much better and with more colour! And while Run 8 does generally have good physics, they're not perfect - I have had almost instant brake release on a long consist where the reality would be several minutes. And having to stop the train to access the dispatcher boards, or risk doing so on the move, to set up your route and check progress of any AI trains is most definitely not an accurate simulation of real life. The industry implementation would be nice to see in TSW though.
     
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  49. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    There's more than 1 way to make a simulation and what one person thinks is important for the simulation may not be thought of as so important by the 2nd person.
    Taking PMDG's NGX for example. Huge amount of systems complexity but they didn't bother with much on the flight model side. It accelerates and climbs at about the right rate but it feels like it is on rails (yes, it is in FSX/P3D, but then so are A2A's products and they don't feel to be on rails).
    I'm not having a go at PMDG, just saying that not everyone thinks of the same things as important in a simulation. Not everyone worries about the flight model in an airliner. Not everyone needs a physical cockpit model (such as that built by the OP'er). On the other hand, some people need full-motion built-in as well.
    Look at Derail Valley. Of the 3 locos in it, 2 aren't even simulations of specific locos as I understand it, but there's still some aspects of simulation where it is quite strong.
     
  50. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The coupling and uncoupling is more involved, particularly having to screw up the couplings and open the air cocks.
     
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