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Tsw: Switching In The Subdivision!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think you can guess what I think regarding the QA... but whatever the facts are, with respect to the actual amount of QA done by DTG (if any), you can know this for sure:

    - Some of the first people that took up the offer to purchase this DLC, whatever their expectations were, decided within two to three hours that they were so disgusted that they rushed to get a refund - as the DLC wasn't to spec.


    From this you can conclude that it only takes the average keen DLC purchaser a couple of hours to decide (from their own quality perspective), that the product as publshed did not meet the specification as advertised.

    And consequently you can conclude that either:
    - the product did not meet the specification, but nobody at DTG ever tested to see if it would; or,
    - the product was released out of spec, and they knew this and released it anyway; or,
    - the people that design, build, test, approve and market the product do not talk to each other.

    I know which of the three scenarios I think is most likely. And all I can say is that Disney don't just provide Customer Service training to external clients, but I think that they also have a Team Building and Communication training programme available as well.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  2. John Murphy

    John Murphy Well-Known Member

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    Wow, you actually have a gripe with something? Impossible! This must be a sign of the apocalypse. We're in end times!
     
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  3. John Murphy

    John Murphy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it will keep you busy getting your money back and browsing for something else to spend it on.
     
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  4. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

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    The main (and imho real) problem are the hiddens "end of route" in the harbour area. This looks, to use gentle words, not too professional.

    They can solve with a solution/patch similar at the ECW scenario when our Class 66 is stopped in front of the tunnel by railway staff "segment closed - work in progress". Or something like this.

    Obviously I will glad if they working for a better solution to completing-and/or-expanding the industrial playable area and add a new loco and services. Personally I think that this sort of free roaming scenario it was an owngoal. We need duties in all the harbour area, not to exploring a "death" zone. A new freight add-on will can be the best solution for all (industrial area upgrade for free, new loco and duties/services as add-on).
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  5. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't change the fact that the route that was represented in descriptions and the manual was not exactly what we got on our end.

    I don't think it's confusion, it's misrepresentation of the released product and what is included. Many of us made our pre-order purchase decision based off of the stream, manual, and product description. We bought a product that said content would be included and accessible, and it is clearly not.

    The fact we need to wait days after the release to get an update on missing content and the solution, and therefore are limited in our gameplay because we would not only reduce our chances of getting a refund, but also lose the discount that we got for pre-ordering, troubles me. This is disrespectful to the community that supports this game.
     
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  6. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, the confusion is this. People who have paid money are confused as to why the product is clearly unfinished but released with much hype about the full and free accessibility of those unfinished parts.

    If there is any other confusion it is not on the customers' side.
     
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  7. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    And now add to that, that the last three DLC felt like 3 new lows in a row.
    RRO - short af.
    ECW - short af, and bugged to hell
    OSD - even shorter than f, no branches or alternative routes to make up for it, falsely advertised and also bugged, of course.

    This is how you kill the future of trainsimming. Or at least your future in trainsimming. I'm not feeling comfortable anymore buying anything DTG-published (not limited to DTG-made!), be it TSW, or TS2020. After all, TS20 is heading in the same direction, albeit slower.
     
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  8. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    ECW is not a low I think, is a "mid" (definitely not the 10/10 best route ever as stated by many). It is gradually losing its position in the most used routes, in favor of GWE, (PC, temporarily 'cause of baby bullet), NTP, NEC. We will see in the future.

    RRO? Is anyone playing it still? My statistics say no. And personally is another big buy regret after ECW.
     
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  9. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    The most catastrophic release for TSW and everyone goes home for the weekend? If I was managing a project and the release went this badly, I wouldn't be going home for the weekend, I'd be in the office until things were put right. Every salaried position I've ever had came with the expectation that during times like this extra hours would be put in. It would take about 10 minutes to update the manual with the correct information, but DTG are waiting until Monday, meanwhile they're misleading customers all weekend? A very poor show in my opinion.
     
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  10. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Well the BR422 was decent, that has cushioned the blow for RRO somewhat. The train in fact was the primary reason I'd bought it.
     
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  11. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    A massive up yours from DTG, wait till clocking off time post a few vague sentences that tell you nothing really.
    Meanwhile it's still available to buy with misleading content description to the misguided for a whole weekend.
    That proves to me what they think of the people they rely on to keep them in work, shameless.
    Probably quaffing champagne now having a laugh at us all..
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  12. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    There is no confusion.

    In Dmitri’s defence, don’t shoot the messenger.

    I think even he knows that isn’t true, but isn’t allowed to tell the truth thanks to the higher ups, so he just has to tell us what he was told to say.

    They obviously knew what there were doing and was probably hoping no one would notice. Of course putting the proper map on wouldn’t look as good, and would hurt sales. This is almost scandalous.
     
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  13. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The Oakville Route is only 18 Miles because i saw a Time Schedule Video on YouTube for the entire Route
     
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  14. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Dmitri is probably the last person responsible for this fiasco. Community manager... in other contexts that's called a human shield. I mean, how often did Dovetail's CEO post on the forum? Does anyone even know their name without help from Google?
     
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  15. deki32

    deki32 Active Member

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    Me too. This is the first time ever so far and i hope the last :/. Cheers
     
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  16. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    It's a risk for them (DTG)... and it's for them to assess...and for them to manage, as they see fit. Maybe they have a really good explanation* why things don't match up with OSD. Maybe they take a different view to everyone else. Maybe they don't care what their most devoted fans think. Maybe they have more/different data to guide them (they surely have more data....). Also - some people are quite happy with the route...:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/thank-you-for-the-oakville-dlc-devs.20696/

    I only mention all of that for balance, because, as it happens, I would have taken an approach not that much different to yours, and the matter would have been settled by close of play today, with a clear statement of intention.

    Although..... I would have tested the DLC before releasing it, and would not have allowed buildings to be placed on top of track..... and I would have been a bit more reserved in describing the released content if the content had to become more limited than originally planned (for whatever reason), so this farce would never have happened in the first place.

    *NB: I really do want to hear how they are going to explain this text on Steam......:

    "Operate your trains over a rail network represented how it is today, complete with a multitude of lineside industries that are served day-in, day-out by rail. Reproduced in exquisite detail, every rail yard, signal and milepost feel so real you could almost reach out and touch them."

    ..... when in reality, not only can you not reach out and touch every yard... you can't access them because there are warehouses on top of them (without track access shutter doors...) ... and you're not really even meant to look at them... let alone get near them... or almost touch them. ;-O
     
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  17. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

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    I was gonna try it and refund it anyways but when I saw this I didn’t even buy it lol
     
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  18. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Why is everyone so mean and rude? DTG are not evil monsters for goodness sake. I’m disappointed in you all.
     
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  19. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    People are entitled to their own opinions, Anthony...

    Also, what do you mean “I’m disappointed in you all.” You actually sound like a school teacher or a parent telling their child off.
     
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  20. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think the way DTG treat their customers is rude. No apology or explanation of what has happened.

    Have you ever worked in retail? Try dealing with a customer trying to return a product because it doesn't match the description in the advert, but don't apologise, offer an explaination or say you'll change the description in the advert, just tell them you're going home for the weekend. See what reaction you get, it'll make you reassess your definition of mean and rude.
     
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  21. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    That literally sounds like an episode of Little Britain. :)
     
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  22. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I do not think that is everyone is being mean and rude towards DTG, it's just that we all expected better out of this new route. I was expecting better from them with this being the first Canadian route. But I find things to be so so. Loco's with braking that is not correct, horns that do not match what I can find on the internet.

    We all just want better we can understand small bugs but a lot of is wrong could've been caught in the testing phase before release.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  23. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    Are you really a DTG bot Anthony?
    Do you actually believe what you come out with?
    It seems the words just spill out of your mouth and you expect people to pick them off the floor and believe what you say.
    Poor DTG getting pelters off paying customers after being blatantly lied to at worst or being totally inept in the marketing dept at best.
    How am I supposed to sleep tonight knowing you are disappointed with us..
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  24. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    Can anybody confirm the miles of track included once you subtract the areas that are inaccessible? It’s advertised as having 24 miles of track and if it has less than 24 then that’s solid prove of false advertising even if it wasn’t intentional.
     
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  25. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Anthony

    I will try my best to explain this for you. Firstly - everyone here likes trains, and they like trains on computers just as much as you do. Everyone here, on these Forums, is also very happy that DTG makes games that include trains.

    To make these games takes a lot of work, and people need to be paid to do this work. It is possible to make games like this for free, but if you want the best games, quickly, then you have to pay people to do the work. This means that people that want to play the games have to pay DTG some money for the games.

    Game players therefore need to have money. To get money, most game players have to work. They don't all work on their very best most favourite type of jobs. Some people don't even have jobs that involve trains....! Some people have to wash cars - other people's cars - for three hours, just to make enough money to buy a DLC, like Oakville.

    The reason why people here are so upset is that DTG have said that their work is the bestest that it could be, using words that make it sound like heaven has come down to Earth, and wonderfulness will enter into everyone's hearts, if you buy the DLC. But - this did not turn out to be true. So, all that work done by game players - washing all those cars - was for nothing. And nobody likes to wash other people's cars for nothing.

    Some people here (including me) are disappointed with DTG. Nobody here thinks that DTG are monsters. But when you run a business and tell people that your product is going to be absolutely wonderful, the company should keep their promise. And in this case they didn't keep their promise. And nobody likes to be promised something and then not be given what they have been promised.

    Nobody here wants to be mean. But sometimes, you have to tell people things that they don't always want to hear, to help them understand that they can do better. Everyone here wants DTG to do better, and to keep their promises in the future. Because everyone here likes trains.

    Does that make sense?
     
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  26. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I don't think everyone is being mean and rude. They are showing their understandable disappointment and increasing disillusionment with something that they spend lots of money on and want to enjoy. DTG are not evil monsters at all but they have disappointed a lot of people with the quality of this release when everyone should expect things to be improving.
     
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  27. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    Any scammer in my opinion is a monster. Well, not a monster, but still. I am disappointed you defend a sorrow excuse of a company like them. My hopes with them were high back when Peninsula Corridor released. Unfortunately, what goes up must come down.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  28. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    They aren’t scammers.
     
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  29. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    I checked it with Google maps. The mainline length allone from Oakville Freight Station to Hamilton Freight Station East is around 24 miles long.
     
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  30. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    Well those "wonderful" miles of yards in the new dlc say different.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  31. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    They didn’t do that on purpose.
     
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  32. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    How do you know that? Source?
    Even if they didn't do it on purpose it goes to show how woeful they are in the decisions they make and public relations because sure as night follows day their reputation is in the gutter right now.
     
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  33. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Best case scenario is that the route developers told marketing that they were including all of the trackage around Hamilton Yard and Harbor, then they changed the plan and didn't tell marketing. This means that nobody on the development team saw the marketing materials and corrected the marketing department over the last couple of weeks.

    Given that it's possible to change the Steam page at any time, if it was an honest mistake, you'd assume that they'd correct the marketing information and the manual map ASAP, especially as it's just a few minutes work to make the changes. Instead, they've gone home for the weekend and left everything as is, with people still purchasing the DLC believing all of the trackage around Hamilton Yard and Harbor is included; This to me suggests to me that it's something more than an error in communication.
     
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  34. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    OSD for me is a good route. Yes it would be nice to have access to the complete tracks that are visible in the map and a heavy northamerican diesel locos and a bugfree tankcarloading would be nice too.

    But on the other side even the accessible yardarea is the biggest of any TSW routes so far. It makes so much fun to see trains driving with tank cars in the harborarea. And the most of the time the freight yards and the freight stations are full packed with freigh cars. Bayview looks very nice. And by the way you can see the first time northamercan highways with car traffic. The train length is nice too. I saw one today with 37 cars and in the Hamilton explorer scenarios I will try to build 50+ car trains.

    I also like the humming of the diesel engines.

    My summit:

    Yes there are some cons, DTG probably will improve, but the pros for me have more weight. I'm enjoying to drive the geeps on the OSD.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  35. niveous

    niveous New Member

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    Here's another refund request submitted.

    I stopped playing not long after the original CSX:HH release due to horrible physics. 2 years later this past summer I gave the Peninsula Corridor a shot. Night and day from CSX:HH. Sure it has it's fair share of bugs, but you get that feeling weather pushing or pulling, braking or accelerating that you're actually there. This rekindled my faith that TSW will eventually become the 'simulator' it was advertised as originally.

    Then came the baby-bullet DLC. Anxiously awaiting something that resembled GO trains, and that was it. First ride in the bombardier cab car was exhilarating. Immersive sounds, real feel of speed and total immersion. When I reach San Francisco ready to turn and burn back to San Jose in the MP36, I start setting the engine up for lead operation. To my dismay, I go to run a brake test and not a single whisp of air is exhausted. Recheck all the setup and nope, there really is just no sound. For a fast paced, frequent stop commuter railroad using blended braking, that missing audio just kills the experience.

    As for this mess that is the Oakville sub, living right near the line and providing multiple ATCS feed to the GTHA aggregator for the area, it's saddening that this is the product that was delivered. The bugs are too plentiful to list (control stand exhaust, ridiculously overpowered brakes, missing content, etc).

    I really want to enjoy this game DTG, although it almost seems like you go out of your way to deliver sub-optimal non realistic content.
     
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  36. brandonmc205

    brandonmc205 Member

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    Keep us busy- on the forums complaining.*
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  37. brandonmc205

    brandonmc205 Member

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    How did you get this image?
     
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  38. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Looks like they got scared out of their own forum :)
     
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  39. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Google custom map with rail set to red.
     
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  40. brandonmc205

    brandonmc205 Member

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    Would you be willing to share the link with me? I can't figure out how to do it with custom maps :c
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  41. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    LOL? REALLY? That's not an opinion. It's more like a false statement on purpose.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  42. Mr T

    Mr T Well-Known Member

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    Yep, this appears to be the main issue and the problem for DTG is we have the map in the manual to prove it. It will be very interesting to see what their official response is on this.
    We might be in the minority on here but I agree with Matto140, I've been quite happy with the DLC so far and am still enjoying it. I hope they open up the map but I plan on keeping it even if they don't.
     
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  43. tim7839conrailguy

    tim7839conrailguy New Member

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    Refunded as well.

    Steam has been notified of what's going on.

    I have heard word that authorities are probably getting notified of this scam in the UK as well.

    This will be interesting.
     
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  44. John Murphy

    John Murphy Well-Known Member

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    I really hope this is true. DTG really need to be taught a lesson about listening to their player base, communicating, correctly advertising, and most of all, BASIC QUALITY CONTROL.
     
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  45. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    Okay, let's say they didn't do that on purpose, and it was a mistake. Why then after a full day are we finally getting some acknowledgement that an issue exists between what is advertised/documented, and what the downloaded product is? Why are we all sitting here wondering what the DTG solution will be? Why is that description item still on the store pages?

    Instead, DTG will wait for the weekend to let the issue die down, think about the response, and then tell us that content most likely will not be included.
     
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  46. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Yep....Im expecting a patch will be pushed out removing the inaccessible track sections from the in-game map and the pdf manual updated.

    I too was on the expectation after watching the stream the other day it would be all accessible
     
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  47. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Sorry dad.
     
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  48. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    It's the Google Maps Styling Wizard - if you choose a base map, then choose More Options, you can colour them however you like, then export the JSON if you want to use it anywhere.

    Choose Transit > Line > Geometry > Colour to set it how I had it above.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  49. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Do you have source for that UK investigation?
     
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  50. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the positive people for OSD like us are the silent majority. Somebody should make a Pol thread here, where the members could vote if they are satisfied with OSD. I would definitely vote for yes. Because for me all things in live are not black or white. I jugde things always with comparing pros and cons and than make a summit like above. And for me the cons are more heavy. I know for other people some aspects weight more or less. So that they come to an other conclusion. But that's okay. We are all unique humans with our own unique opinions.
     
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