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Tsw: Switching In The Subdivision!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, but I don't think you should settle on that. False advertising is a criminal offense. Also, no matter how content I am with I a product I bought, if it's literally just half of what I was promised, that needs to have consequences. After all, it was probably sheer luck the half that was missing is the half I care less about. Who is to say I'll be as lucky next time around?
     
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  2. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

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    And is this a crime also if the false advertising is your? :)

    There are not 2 locos, 4 new cars (plus a ton of "old" cars), about 24 miles (only of main line) of route, and about 4 or 5 miles of industrial area (more of the half of industrial area) are not open and playable? And what about the price, why not 39.99€ like all standard dlc but 29.99€?
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  3. Lombra

    Lombra Active Member

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    What "standard DLC" are you talking about? I'm pretty sure no TSW DLC was ever sold for more than €30.
     
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  4. Lombra

    Lombra Active Member

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    This attitude only hurts yourself and every other customer in the long run. (assuming there is an issue with the product)

    Let's assume Apple releases a new iPhone, advertised as having 2 TB of storage. (with no other configurations available) Everyone buys it, of course. We soon find out that it actually only has 1 TB of storage. Lots of people are upset, while some people (let's say the majority, somehow) go "oh, that's fine, I don't need 2 TB anyway" and "why don't people realise that not everyone needs 2 TB?". Do you see the issue here?
     
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  5. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Glad you got your refund with no issues. But I would like to make a few considered points:

    1. I don't think what has happened with Oakville (OSD) is a "scam" - in the fullest (or normal) sense of the word. If it is on the spectrum of "scam", then it only just about scrapes through... and right at the very lower end.... This is because it's not really quite a fraud or an outright swindle, where you can be absolutely sure that DTG fully intended to be dishonest. That is not to say that what they did was good, in any sense at all. This is just my opinion, and others (with more experience of dealing with DTG, over a longer time-frame) might feel more strongly.

    2. In terms of criminal offence - well, I checked to see if they had done anything that was outrightly prohibited, as a CPUTR 2008 Schedule 1 prohibited activity. If they had (and there are about 30 prohibited activities listed), and you had any evidence at all, then this would be ruled on automatically, and there'd be an unavoidable fine. They hadn't done any of these things - although they appear to have come very close to a "bait and switch" prohibited activity - but there is no clear prospect to prove this (yet) - in my opinion. And I don't think that there ever will be - DTG is obviously an ongoing concern that is trying to make train games, which most people like, most of the time.

    3. If I were a Trading Standards enforcement officer in the UK, then, based on the current evidence, published by DTG themselves, then I could potentially be motivated to investigate whether or not DTG has breached Reg 5 of CPUTR, and carried out a marketing scheme that was misleading (untrue), and misleading through omission. Further, I would note that if such a breach has occurred, that the scale of the breach is currently being made worse and worse the longer they take to correct the issue, by not changing the marketing materials and continuing to put the product on sale - and doing this despite direct concerns being flagged to them - before, during and after such sales have taken place. I think that they might want to address this as a matter of urgency, but it is up to them how much risk they are prepared to continue to bear.

    4. For absolute clarification - although I could report this to Medway Council (the Local Authority covering Chatham - where I believe the Head Office for Railsimulator.com is located).... I have not done this. I also don't intend to, at this current time. This is not my style - my preferred approach is to let DTG know in no uncertain terms that their methods have been noticed - and then give them an opportunity to rectify the situation amicably for all, without enforcement action being taken. In any case, if enforcement action were to be taken right now, and if I were to be the enforcement officer, then I would probably just chat to them, and ask them to change their approach - I might even write them a stern letter, reminding them of the law, and officially telling them to make some changes, or just to confirm that the regulatory contact has taken place.

    5. I don't want to waste the time of a UK Local Authority, because they have better things to do, like stopping people from getting poisoned by dodgy meat-traders, etc. I also don't want to waste DTG's time, right now... I would rather they just get on and make some reasonable changes and behave in a more fair way in the future. But if things do not change... and this all happens yet again, then that would be a completely different matter.

    6. In short - I am merely pointing out (to DTG) that there is no scope left to continue to act in the way that they have done with OSD, and then expect to get away with it with absolutely no sanction. That scope has now been fully exhausted.

    7. Also - as an aside - I would note that every single time that I have personally pursued a complaint to (or with) an enforcement authority, that on every single occasion some enforcement action has been taken - and in some cases, very large companies have decided that it was easier for them to just completely withdraw from the marketplace, rather than continue to defend a case that has no plausible defence.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  6. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    And there were never ever products from a company that advertisements for were over driven and than costumers bought it even with that. If you look at the the so called diesel scandal. If you look at the media's and the internet forums you could think nobody would buy a German car again. And than compare it with the real live. The German car manufacturers go from one selling record to the next. And the reason is that the majority of the people know exactly before that some of the figures in the prospects are not so realistic and for the majority of the people some of these aspects are not so relevant. For example for me it's not a big issue if my car needs 15 percent more diesel like in the prospect.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  7. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I expect there to be some sort of statement from DTG on Monday regarding this issue with the map. It will be interesting to see what will be said.

    Clearly this isn’t an isolated issue, as it affects everyone that has purchased this DLC.
     
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  8. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    This is no scam. What the heck people?!?!
     
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  9. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    IF something is said. Who says they aren't just going to sit it out.
     
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  10. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    By "sit it out", I assume that you mean "no statement, and no rectification of the issue".

    That is a risk that they could take, if they have a real hunger for taking risks.

    And that approach could very seriously compound any complaint that might be made, especially if an enforcement authority subsequently ruled in favour of a complainant.
     
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  11. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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    Well the behavior of DTG falls back on them selves, Oakville already has the second worst rating of a DLC on steam (54%) and it's going down in a free fall.
    I am sure if they made clear before release that only the half of the port area is accessible the rating would be better. They route itself it's ok, but advertising this as a big shunting DLC and trying to make the suggestion you can access everything here and then it's not was a bad idea. The manual, the lifestream and the adversiting makes the impression everything is player accessible.
    The people on DTG responsible for this should think about that for the next DLC to prevent a fail like this in the future.
    Fooling the customers again and again will result in not buying it anymore.
    And it's not the first big fail of DTG adversiting stuff, remember the "big reveal"?
    And now being completely silent about this don't make it better.

    And the response from Dimitri is also not the best. "It's clear that the map is creating some confusion."
    There is no confusion, the map in the manual IS WRONG! There is no misinterpretation of it, it's just wrong and DTGs fault, it is not the customers who are to dumb to read the map!
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  12. A_normal_name

    A_normal_name Member

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    What's the dlc with the worst rating?
     
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  13. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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  14. Mikey_9835

    Mikey_9835 Well-Known Member

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    The whole yard situation is bizarre because its either a bug that somehow nobody at DTG encountered, or it's intentional in which case is most certainly false advertising. I love this game and I want it to succeed, but stuff like this as well as the royalty free horn sounds frustrates me because it feels like no passion was put into this route.

    But even without all the issues, the route lacks variety. ALL routes should have Passenger & Freight services instead of focusing on one thing only. Adding passenger services to this route would be pointless due to it's length since freight was the only focus. DTG have left little room for expansion.

    Look at Peninsula corridor, a mainly passenger focused route, but they didn't forget about freight. You could have picked any section of track that CN operates and implement it into the game, with passenger services in mind, so you still have a freight centric route, but with room for expansion.
     
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  15. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    My initial thought was that it was just a case of the collision detection being in the wrong place. But if you look at the area it's only got basic scenery carelessly placed with buildings interfering with the tracks. So this area was not intended for the player to use, despite the marketing info and manual saying otherwise.

    I agree with your other points. The freight cars are reused, the sounds are reused, the GP38-2 is reused. The route itself is very short compared to previous offerings. The only new content aside from the route is the GP9RU, but even that has recycled sounds from Railworks. There's also a lack of attention to detail, for example the crossbucks are US ones recycled from previous DLC, rather than the red trimmed Canadian ones found on the real route, a quick reskin was all that was needed. Apparently DTG couldn't get the GO license, so it looks like the stations will go unused anyway.

    Overall, very little new content, poor attention to detail and blatant falsehoods in the advertising and manual. If anyone wants to buy a DLC for this weekend, the Baby Bullet is a much better option.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  16. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    This DLC is just a meme at this point. That's the only way I can put it. I had a feeling it would be a piece of trash when I first heard the reused sounds. Deep down inside, I actually had some hope, but when I heard those sounds I lost most of it. When I actually played it, it was hilariously bad. The locomotive was all set up and suddenly it would only move in notch 8, the sounds were awful, the first scenario was boring, the rolling stock was reused, and there was no challenge to the switching. I feel as if this DLC just can't be saved anymore. There's just too much broken for DTG to fix all of it. They'd have to make new models for the rolling stock, source better sounds, fix the physics, (possibly) edit the scenarios and, of course, let us explore the industrial areas in Hamilton that they were bragging about pre-release. I don't want DTG to get sued or anything, I just want them to learn their lesson by way of angry fans and terrible reviews.
     
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  17. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

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    Like general package the Peninsula Corridor (or the TransPennine with freight addon included) is absolutely better. But like artistical impact and landscape details (all we can see around the railway) CN Oakville route is really impressive!
     
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  18. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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  19. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes - I hear that the Baby Bullet (which has no manual) is a really nice DLC, for those that like that sort of thing. I can't buy it though, because whenever I try to purchase it, my bank sends me a message that reads "The DB BR 155 on RSN has still not been fixed, so this payment cannot be authorised."

    More seriously.... if people want to buy the Baby Bullet for PS4 - then please note that the Baby Bullet DLC must be searched for on PlayStation Store - it is not currently listed under TSW on the PS4 XMB, or associated with the TSW game page - but it can be purchased.
     
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  20. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

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    Im the only Ontario-fan who prefer and asking for the other ruote side? From Oakville (Hamilton West Harbour, St.Catherine, Niagara Falls ON) to Niagara Falls NY? It will be also an easiest work for DTG (instead Oakville-Toronto Union).

    Toronto Union station its not easy because 1) is on the heart of the city 2) don't give technical tricks -like NY Penn underground or San Francisco with the city skyline far from the station- to developers. A serious problem for our Cpu.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  21. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    3pz4lc.jpg
     
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  22. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    It's probably not be a scam, but it’s clear there was some mishap that occurred at DTG. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say it wasn’t done intentionally, but that doesn’t change the fact that the team that wrote the manual clearly had a miscommunication with the development team on what was and what was not going to be represented in the map. Also, the fact that the preview stream seemed to coincidently avoid the misrepresented areas on the free roam scenario does raise some suspension on who knew what before the release.
     
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  23. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Just to provide a bit of counterpoint here: yesterday, I drove the TT G86921-05 Aldershot-Oakline service yesterday. After arriving in the Oakville yards, I shut down the engine and walked to what I think is the Oakville Assembly Complex, where the 2D map showed an idle engine. After carrying out the start-up procedures described in the user manual, I could not get the engine moving, but had no problems accessing the area. Perhaps I should have uncoupled from the freight wagons and driving my engine into that area or spawned into that yard.. I'll try again soon. The purpose of this post, however, is to balance some of the claims made in this snarl of a thread about inaccessible areas, which make me wonder whether the posters on questioned have actually visited supposedly inaccessible spaces. Be that as it may, along the way from Aldershot to Oakville I passed several yard areas that may or may not be involved in the scenarios and sessions included in this DLC package.

    Further information soon, I hope.
     
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  24. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    They surely didn’t intentionally not put the full harbor area in. They probably couldn’t finish it by the deadline. The manual and route description were probably already written, and were forgotten to be updated. It’s not a scam.
     
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  25. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    The inacessible area in question is the Hamilton steel works, not the car factory at the other end of the route.
     
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  26. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    Either way, the damage is already done. And many people in here aren't very satisfied with how it turns out in the end, no matter how you view the route entirely. And we won't know what really happened until Monday. So, let the madness continue, as always.
     
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  27. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Everybody: Hey WTF is this?! The car you sold me has its rear seats missing! In fact, the rear doors don't even open! Freakn welded shut!
    Manufacturer fanboys: It's OK! Look, it has headlights and wipers and cupholders! And it's a nice color too, isn't it? Do you know how hard it is to make a car?

    TSW community in a nutshell.
     
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  28. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    If that is true, then this is why all departments need to talk to each other and make sure all information is correct before being published. All this could have been avoided if they got their advertising right.

    Its like a company advertising for a phone which features X, Y and Z specs but only includes X and Z specs in reality.

    Mind you this isn’t the first time DTG marketing and advertising have made a c0ck up of things...
     
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  29. metr0p0litain

    metr0p0litain Member

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    So, it wasn't possible to point this out by saying that only a part of the yards is reachable? Even on Thursday, when this article https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/train-sim-world/articles/article/switching-in-the-subdivision was published, it says:

    For me, this sounds like the exact opposite of what is really possible. And people get disappointed, because the route is pretty short and complaints about this were downplayed with the explanation, that it can't be compared to other routes, because you get so many tracks in the yards. And that's obviously not true.
     
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  30. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    So, we're back to this again (which I originally posted kind of tongue in cheek in the BB missing manual thread) with some slight modifications for this instance..

    It's...
    Create DLC -> Test DLC -> Fix bugs -> Write manual -> Set release date -> Marketing -> Release DLC and manual
    vs...
    Set release date -> Marketing -> Write Manual -> Mad panic trying to get DLC finished -> That'll have to do -> No time for testing -> Forget to update the manual or marketing blurb -> Release DLC -> read feedback about the mess -> Sod it, we'll leave it on sale over the weekend in its broken form and have a look on Monday morning, or afternoon, or whatever.
     
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  31. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    What stopped them updating the map in the manual and product description yesterday? There's nothing to stop them uploading a new manual and the changes to the store page can be made visible instantly after editing. If it was an innocent mistake why leave it all weekend?
     
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  32. AlexNL

    AlexNL Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this is a scam either, but the handling of this mess feels rather clumsy.

    The DLC released on Thursday and the first feedback started pouring in on Thursday as well (here, on Discord, and probably elsewhere). DTG should've been watching initial feedback and hurried to rectify the issues with the manual and marketing blurbs ASAP. Instead, they stayed mostly silent and only posted "We'll look at this after the weekend," that's just not good enough.
     
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  33. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    This is too true. They're way too lenient. You're paying $30 for a route, so you should really have decent expectations. These people blow off giant bugs and problems like they're nothing.
     
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  34. tim7839conrailguy

    tim7839conrailguy New Member

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    I dont. I just heard it on another forum. Im just hopeful it's true. They need accountability!

    This is beyond contempt. Even if it wasnt the plan to release this in a botched state, it's absurd to say it wasnt "intentional" as Anthony has repeatedly done. Of COURSE what happened was intentional. The alternative is that they're so incompetent they cant even figure out that 2+2 doesnt equal 5? That the finished product is fatally bugged and misshapen? That's an insane statement to make and one that would never hold up in the courts.

    The fact is they released this product that had gross non-conformance to the previously stated advertised specifications, nor the specifications included in the manuals. They acknowledged the community claims and deferred action.

    This has to attract serious attention.
     
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  35. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    It didn't affect Matt, who chatted on Discord today.

    MattPeddlesdenToday at 5:46 pm
    Unless you mean go away from the pc :)

    DominusEdwardiusToday at 5:46 pm
    basically using more or less the same amount of fuel as at idle

    Fluorite (Junko) Today at 5:46 pm
    Awwh
    yeah

    MattPeddlesdenToday at 5:46 pm
    Put indy brake on, rest up against buffers and then crank the power on hah. What could go wrong.

    Fluorite (Junko) Today at 5:47 pm
    DTG employee advocating damaging locos: smile:

    MattPeddlesdenToday at 5:47 pm
    Never said a word that was my cat stole my phone.
    Whistles innocently
     
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  36. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    They really don't seem to care.
    All is good.
     
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  37. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

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    Matt is enjoying discussions on his own in an unofficial place.
     
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  38. kalteVollmilch

    kalteVollmilch Well-Known Member

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    You both do realize that it is not Matt who decides when someone at DTG has to work or not?
    Besides, it is weekend. Why would Matt not be on Discord and chat with the community, when he wants to? It's his own freetime.

    And please stop blaming single individuals for what happened with OSD. We "know" a handful of people from these forums, there are just two or three more that work at DTG, whom we do not know. We have no idea who is responsible for all of this
     
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  39. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    One of the problems that I find, quite often, is that some businesses are so unaware of the regulatory framework, that they assume that nothing that they are doing is subject to any Regulation. Some larger companies (with dedicated legal compliance departments) know that they are regulated, but draw comfort from the fact that nobody else (their customers) know this.

    I agree with you - some attention must be brought to this DLC marketing issue - and I want DTG to know that all of this nonsense is now coming to an end. DTG might have thought, for the last 14 years, that they can get away with pretty much anything.... they might have thought - "And so what - it's not like anyone will do anything about it....!" Well....people can actually do something about it. It's been noticed. And this is why I have contributed to this thread in such stark terms.

    Something now has to change.

    That isn't just someone hoping that "Something now has to change" - it's a literal statement of fact. If nothing changes, then action will follow. And although I do not want to do anything right now, except give DTG one last chance, I'd be very happy to be at the forefront of future action - should this become necessary.

    If someone else is taking forward a complaint to Medway Council, right now, then I wish them luck, as maybe it is better to start the process now, rather than later. But if I have to get involved, because DTG does nothing at all, then I can assure you that this will get 100% of my attention, until the changes required have demonstrably taken place.
     
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  40. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I really appreciate your talent for brevity (yet still saying so much...).... I think I need to pick up a few lessons from you.... ;-)
     
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  41. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    So make a new deadline. I'd rather wait for a finished project then pay for half a job at full price. DTG dug themselves into this hole, and so far haven't attempted to get out of it.
     
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  42. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Tell that to management.
     
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  43. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    I'd rather explain why the dlc is late then why it's not making profit.
     
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  44. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    But, I do see your point. I would like to see the difference in DTG if the main management was different.
     
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  45. AlexNL

    AlexNL Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind that the TSC Discord is not an official DTG communication channel. Matt is not there in an official position and he is not allowed to speak freely about all sorts of matters.
     
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  46. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    I guess so. those who are satisfied and they are silent and those who are not satisfied write here.
    Is quite convinced that most people are reasonably satisfied with it.

    I know what i bought before and it fits well with what I got. That pieces are missing industrial areas I don't care.
    But of course I wanted better sounds in engines ( brakes that match reality ) longer and more exciting train track. Longer trains.

    I can only hope This simulator is still being developed or another company is starting to make a new train simulator.
    but that an English company should be able to do routes in the America is not easy
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  47. brandonmc205

    brandonmc205 Member

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    It’s a scam by not clearly stating that it was intended to be in the game originally but will now not be due to time constraints.

    It’s their fault that they “forgot” to tidy up loose ends.

    Hopefully they learn their lesson on quality control and end user impression by taking care of this stuff BEFORE they release something.

    What a bunch of clowns.
     
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  48. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Development time.

    I'm absolutely convinced that's what the excuse for that will be.
     
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  49. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    DTG definitely bit off more than they could chew. If we had access to the blocked industrial areas, I'd bet they aren't fully modeled. They seem to put too much effort into marketing than they do developing. If they focused more on developing or were willing to delay the addon, it wouldn't be awful like it is now. They delayed GWE so why didn't they delay this?
     
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  50. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    You can tell by how low the rating on Steam is that a lot more people are not as satisfied with it than previous DLCs. 37% of the reviews are negative, compare it to the last two DLCs, the Baby Bullet has only 6% negative reviews, ECW only 8% negative reviews. That could represent 30% less in terms of sales for OSD compared to ECW, which is a significant blow in terms of income.
     
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