1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Tsw: Switching In The Subdivision!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2019
    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    349
    Maybe they always work this way, set the budget and release date in stone, the devs work until the budget/ time runs out, dlc released in whatever state it's reached. It would explain why we don't go to Bishop Auckland on the Tees Valley and why there are unused freight locations on the Tees Valley map, namely Darlington Rail Maintenance Yard and Saltburn on Sea. Unless a future release will use them. The line to Stockton-on-Tees is modelled but fizzles out before getting there. Was it going to be the Stockton and Darlington Railway? Who knows?
     
    • Like Like x 5
  2. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Messages:
    379
    Likes Received:
    566
    Screenshot 2020-02-22 at 21.40.01.png
     
    • Like Like x 7
  3. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2018
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    538
    Yeah. What this guy said.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2018
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    I think he needs a full body aloe treatment after that burn. My phones sizzling from it.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  5. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2017
    Messages:
    365
    Likes Received:
    604
    The funny thing with that theory is DTG has sometimes done the complete opposite. They modeled miles of track and scenery on MSB that was not electrified in real life so no current in game trains could take advantage of it. We’ve yet to see a dlc that makes use of that part of MSB. We also see this a little bit in LIRR. The track and scenery to the Long Island City Branch is there, but no services use it and only one scenario makes use of it. Also in NEC the freight yards around Newark are of no use in service mode or in scenarios.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  6. John Murphy

    John Murphy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2018
    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    575
    You know, I just thought of something. DTG was originally founded by the former vice president of EA. No wonder the company's sketchy if it's in a way the spawn of EA. What's next? Will you need to buy loot boxcars in order to finish scenarios?
     
    • Like Like x 4
  7. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    191
    I agree this is not the best route they done.
    I think it is mostly very short and it is mostly a long straight. But this I know beforehand. The longest trains is maybe 20-30 wagons.....
    But Dovetails still succeeds anyway. They have no competition right now almost. In consoles they are alone I think.
    Pc they have OpenRails Run8 Trainz. But none of them is a real competitor.
    That they should make the same route to both consoles and to pc may sound smart money way, but it does not seem so good in practice.
    Look at this Link PS4 And Pc it is constantly increasing.
    I think it is under 1 percent of those who have even been to this forum. and fewer writes, so what is said here does not weigh heavily in dovetail
    What weighs heavily is what is sold and that is what drives their business
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  8. So the last path is incomplete both on PC, both on PS4, and on Xbox.
    In my part it is said: "Mal Comune Mezzo Gaudio" = "bad common, half satisfaction".
     
  9. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    184
    Here we answer: "These Dicks!"

    Dalla foto sembri molto interessante, lol :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    134
    I've always said I don't mind the shorter routes providing there is plenty to do, but even I thought DTG were pushing their luck with the end to end length of this one, Never mind, I thought all the development time has gone into all of those yards, It will be something with a different style of gameplay.

    I did buy it and the short time I've played it so far, I did enjoy what I was seeing. Upon taking a brief look at the freeroam scenario I did wonder why all the exit markers were clustered around the centre of the map. I now know why!!

    At no point was it mentioned that many of the yards were not accessible, it fact the complete opposite impression was given. Does it alter the overall gameplay, I'm not sure. But I will say one word "TRUST".

    I've been finding it increasing difficult to justify spending on TSW content especially when you see what other developers are releasing for the old TS and to be honest I think that's me done with buying any further full price content for the this game when its released.

    Everything that DTG seems to be releasing seems rushed, unfinished and broken.
     
    • Like Like x 12
  11. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2018
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    465
    Both Matt the senior producer and Dmitri the community manager hosted a livestream before release knowing full well the limitations of the dlc and didn't say a damn word about it.
    Both are complicit in pulling the wool over customers eyes and both have gone down in my estimation, once the trust has gone that's it I'll never believe a word DTG say again.
    For them to wait until the latest possible time on Friday to release a vague statement saying thanks for the feedback but we're not going to do anything about it until Monday at the earliest while keeping it on sale a whole weekend with misleading blurb not changed ripping people off is unforgivable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    • Like Like x 10
  12. dark-rabbit

    dark-rabbit New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2019
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2
    This is the first time I get a dlc refunded, and it makes me a little sad ... but I'm willing to buy it back if DTG makes a 30% discount! This line is not finished, it would be normal for the price to be offered lower than the other dlc...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. mrchuck

    mrchuck Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2018
    Messages:
    739
    Likes Received:
    574
    yeah I totally would definitely like to see more service and scenarios around Long Island city maybe add some Freight or the Dual mode diesel locomotives into the Lirr Dlc.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    2,641
    The marketing people are not the same preppy as the developers.
     
  15. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    184
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    • Like Like x 3
  16. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2018
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    465
    So the developers and marketing people don't communicate with each other?!
    That shows what a unprofessional shoddy company they really are.
    By railfans for railfans..feel the detail..hahahaha
     
    • Like Like x 11
  17. PlatChap

    PlatChap Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2017
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    492
    DTG has lost a lot of goodwill here with a good majority of their customer base, "yes men" aside. You want your weekend? Take it .. but come Monday morning there better be something done. Accountability needs to be taken and a proper response needs to be issued. What I am about to say here may seem dramatic but I come from an earnest place of someone who loves this franchise and has supported it from day 1.

    Something has to change here. This is not a sustainable business model and it's quite frankly insulting. I don't believe this is a "scam" as others have stated but this unequivocally proves to me there is gross mismanagement and that inter-company communication is sorely deficient; and it HAS to change. I can only speak for myself in this post but I will be waiting for a response and holding off any further purchases until I'm satisfied that these shortcomings have been rectified as well as mitigated for the future and the respect for the customer base has been reestablished.

    Like Blizzard CEO preached in November "we failed to live up to the high expectations we set for ourselves" and "our actions will speak louder than our words going forward" before the company subsequently released the debacle that is Warcraft 3 Reforged and gave their customer base the finger with their custom games policy; just like this .. your actions will also be a reflection on you DTG. I urge you to set an example here and do the right thing for your customer base and for your business.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    • Like Like x 15
  18. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2019
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    1,311
    Unfortunately, what you have said is probably a pretty good summary. Doesn't look very good at all, does it?

    What I find surprising though - genuinely surprising - is that there is no real counter-narrative on the Forums from people that have bought OSD, played it, and absolutely loved it... fawning over it... posting lots of screenshots... etc... There are a few posts that do this on other threads, but they are very few and far between..... So - I put this out as a suggestion to anyone out there that loves OSD - let people know.... we need to know if there is any sort of balancing argument*....

    *and I'd ask others (that are less convinced) to give any completely saitisfied customers the space to do that - if we don't hear from them, then we won't learn anything more....
     
    • Like Like x 5
  19. Matto140

    Matto140 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2017
    Messages:
    382
    Likes Received:
    499
    Jobs for OSD works fine!
    At least, this will not be the subject of complaints.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  20. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2019
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    1,311
    Oh dear - just after posting that more hopefully encouraging reply to your post... I spotted another thread (see link below). But first, here is a quick summary of the argument so far:

    Customer (C): Oh look, this is a short route, with no passenger stuff.... how can the routes be getting shorter and shorter, with less and less content...?
    Dovetail (D): Ah, it might be slightly shorter, but we've included "countless industries", with all the yards to explore, and that could all be considered to be "a route unto itself" - you are getting two routes with this DLC.....and this time it's a special route for freight with lots of stuff to do; it will be really exciting and interesting, and has new SUPER COOL features.....
    C: Oh that sounds good for some people that like switching and shunting; can we see these yards...?
    D: Sure - look at all of the miles and miles and miles and miles and miles (and kilometres, if you like) .....of trackage that we spent all of our time on, you can see it on the map view - loads of it.....
    C: Oh - wow - that kinda looks different, starting to understand it now.... cool - something a bit different....!
    -
    (a few hours later, after release... ... )
    -
    C: WTF - you can't access the yards...? ...most of them... at all...?..... and the new tank loader is broken...?..... and..... some of the industry scenery looks like it was slapped into place by a blind elk..., using its antlers to control the mouse and keyboard...?
    D: Aaah - you noticed those things...um...can we talk about it next week..... we didn't actually expect anyone to find out... um... actually....don't call us, we'll call you..... You should check out the next DLC... it will be fabulous....! And whatever you might think, we know what we've done is good, and has helped to provide valuable work experience to the elk community in Canadia, because we love to give something back to the community - see how wonderful we are...? Pleeease....?


    Anyway.... - back to topic - the other thread I saw..... Well... we've seen the initial map posted with yards crossed out, but this one is even clearer because it shows the "exit" markers (the real extent of the playable area, compared to the "track area"):

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/osd-industries.20759/

    It's quite damning.... in my humble opinion.... A picture says a thousand words... (hmmm... maybe I should talk in pictures in the future....LOL....)....
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    • Like Like x 12
  21. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2018
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    465
    Even the basics are wrong for example you can start the gp9 engine with fuel pump turned off, the engine fed compressor works with the engine turned off and more and my friend found these faults within minutes of purchasing it!
    Glad for him he got a prompt refund, he certainly won't be purchasing dlc again.
    And judging by the response on some other forums by people who are local to the route the dlc is poor and that's the polite word is far removed as can be for the real life operations.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  22. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2017
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    639
    It's funny you mentioned that because I thought the exact same thing just a couple of days ago, and was even talking to one of my fellow colleagues about this very thing. I have to agree, they may have separated themselves from EA, but they sure have carried on some of their practices. And if this is how they continue doing content the way they do, saying that this title could be going the way of FSW wouldn't be entirely far fetched.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  23. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2018
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    465
    I read a book about constructive criticism once and believe me it was cRap.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  24. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    411
    For anyone just realizing that Paul Jackson, a former employee of EA, is the CEO of DTG, that's nothing new and the comments being made here about the similarities to EA have been made for years. This is nothing new.

    We've continuously asked for decent, tested content before release. I look at DLC like the Arrow III for TS2020, and how that was broken upon release. I think DTG has a lot of capability, I just would rather see some content postponed so it is more well rounded upon release. Over the last two years, if not more, I know the idea that holding off on DLC for TSW so fixes could be made have been proposed, which will not make DTG money, but earn then a lot of respect from the community.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  25. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2019
    Messages:
    322
    Likes Received:
    461
    I have no first hand experience of this dlc but if even half of what im reading is factually correct then its a very poor situation and does not indicate an improving situation for our hobby, the situation at DTG or the future of the product. Quite the reverse in fact. Definately not the start to 2020 many of us were hoping for.
    As someone who doesnt use discord, whats the general mood over there like regarding this dlc?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  26. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2018
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    DTG has plenty of potential, but they don't use it. TSW could be a great game, but instead DTG make this out of it.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  27. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    672
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    I hate to say it but I personally think as long as DTG are solely in charge of things, TSW will never reach its full potential.

    This is evident in TS1. The quality of DTG content vs third party and community content is a world apart.

    I believe in the content creators of DTG, however I have no faith in the management. They simply squash any hope of others making progress and improvements.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    • Like Like x 17
  28. doc_woods

    doc_woods Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2019
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    110
    Have you submitted those to the screenshot competition? Because if not, you should.
     
    • Like Like x 12
  29. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    191
    I agree. TSW have lot of potential but they not use it.
    It is massive critic against this route OSD. Not only here but in all forums that I read.
    What does that depend on. Why people are incredibly upset now
    • Of course of this route. It very short, missing stuff, boring and so on. Most exiting stuff is to fill the tank wagons..........
    • First Freight route in America after CSX Heavy Haul. it came 2017. Now 3 year ago we got OSD....
      People had expectations that it would be much better than this.
    • We miss Editor so we are totally dependent on what dovetail does to us.
      We cant do anything now almost.
    • If there was a real competitor we would have been there already and bought their stuff.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  30. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2017
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    639
    I don't recall it being broken upon release. Or if it was, it was addressed rather quickly. But I wouldn't have used that DLC as an example, as it worked fine for the most part. I do know that there was a lighting issue, but that was fairly minor as it would correct itself, fiddling with camera views.

    You have the MP36 and Even the F40 for the Penninsula Corridor Extension which were both broken. And probably still to this very day, has not been fixed. If you wanna use an example, those would be the perfect candidate(s).
     
    • Like Like x 3
  31. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2017
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    639
    That last bullet point is the most important thing. It's one of the things I've been saying for years now. They know, as well as the community knows there isn't any strong competition out there, which is what enables them to do business and push out content in the condition they're shipped in. I have personally never witnessed so much content under one umbrella having issues across both of their titles. I can sort of forgive the TSW franchise because it's still fairly new, however, certain aspects they should have mastered by now. TS1... I mean how old is the game again? How many years have they been working on content? Or even better yet, what is the employee turnover like? Because at this stage, a lot of these issues should not still be a problem, especially not at the asking price for a good amount of the content still currently offered.

    The lack of strong competition is one of DTG's biggest problems. Without it, or the consumers' refusal to keep supporting them with their wallets, they will continue this trend as long as they're enabled.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    • Like Like x 6
  32. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2017
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    639
    Well, being it is moderated, it's basically borderline fascism there. Despite having one of my comments on here deleted/hidden, though still evident that it was written, thanks to someone quoting it, you can get away with venting on here as opposed to there. Blunt honesty isn't something that can be handled. You'd have to pretend you're apart of a Mr. Roger-esque server.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  33. paulgregs

    paulgregs Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2019
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    128
    Its all a bit of a shame reading through all this. Feel a bit depressed to be honest.....
     
    • Like Like x 4
  34. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2018
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    538
    Anyone wanna start a new next gen train sim and do it right?
     
    • Like Like x 6
  35. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2018
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Lol. I wish.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  36. A_normal_name

    A_normal_name Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2020
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    78
    *cough* Microsoft *couch*
     
    • Like Like x 6
  37. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2019
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    1,311
    How about something like this:

    Title:Project Trains
    Platform: Windows 10, Playstation 5, XBox
    Funding: Crowd sourced funding/investment of about £4 million (initial)
    Dev: Distributed development model including dev in US, UK, Germany, Japan, France, Australasia, India and Russia
    Dev platform: Updated UE, built from ground up, to keep with progress updates
    Scope: x60 routes in x12 national territories, with x250 types of rolling stock
    Basic rule: Nothing is released for sale until it has been tested
     
    • Like Like x 5
  38. bobsr

    bobsr Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    72
    • Like Like x 5
    • Helpful Helpful x 3
  39. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2018
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    163
    Feels like DTG are being ripped a new one in here. My decision to not purchase this DLC was made long before release... but damn.
    With the "yardgate" situation and the lie over multiplayer (referencing that first trailer that mentioned the game would have MP)... my trust in DTG has dropped dramatically.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  40. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    326
    You will not get 4 million (whatever currency) via fundings for a train simulator. And if you would get it, you will not be able to do your list with that little amount of money. The overall consensus on all these topics here is, you guys don't understand what DTG is making happen to us train simulator players/fans, even if you don't like it at all. Try to do it by yourself and you will maybe get the idea why you should thank DTG for doing it instead of bashing them down with every post. Honestly!
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  41. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    990
    Likes Received:
    1,297
    That's some fine quality route building right there! :D

    Screenshot-2020-02-23-at-20.52.21.jpg Screenshot-2020-02-23-at-20.52.24A.jpg Screenshot-2020-02-23-at-20.52.46A.jpg Screenshot-2020-02-23-at-20.52.59A.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 13
  42. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    901
    Likes Received:
    2,861
    All they needed to do was to drop the hype on all the yards and industries, have an accurate map in the manual and then recognised the short length of the route by charging £19.99 instead of £24.99.
    Watching that makes you realise just how much trackage is actually unfinished and locked out, it's not just the odd siding, it's a huge amount of the trackage around Hamilton.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  43. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    901
    Likes Received:
    2,861
    • Like Like x 6
  44. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Messages:
    379
    Likes Received:
    566
    • Like Like x 2
  45. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2018
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Hey another anthony. Hey Anthony number 2.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  46. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2019
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    1,311

    Slightly Mad Studios
    did exactly what I suggested here.... less than ten years ago with Project Cars. Although, yes - you might need £5 million now. And if you get a couple of high capital investors, like Mssrs. Holland and Waterman on board..., then anything is possible.

    I fully appreciate that TSW has great potential - and I am very grateful to DTG for creating it in the first place. But I am not really convinced that they are particularly efficient. They are certainly not robust in their approach. If a worldwide group of developers/investors got together, with the right incentives in place, then I believe 100% that such an organisation could pull off something like Project Cars, but for Trains, with an initial kick-start, in the right direction, if there is a unified vision.

    And yes - I believe that you could make all of the content that I outlined for £5 million, but not just the content, but an actual core for an effective simulator and game, that could be built upon. And then you could sell it to Microsoft for £30 million... LOL... ;-)

    The problem with DTG is that they are continuously looking backwards, at Railworks, trying with every step to replicate everything that holds them back, and prevents them from even seeing, let alone having a vision. To put this in context - I predict that next week, despite everything that has gone wrong with the OSD DLC (and the painful patch update nightmare that preceeded it...), that DTG will hold a firm line in saying that absolutely nothing is wrong.

    They will do this.... not to be difficult, or to blur the issue, or because they are bad people, but because this is what they actually believe. They are literally blind to it all - they see nothing wrong at all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    • Like Like x 7
  47. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2019
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    1,311
    Sadly, as much as I really don't want to agree with you - I fully agree with you.... ;-O

    All of the mayhem would have been avoided, if there was just a trace of humility regarding what the route really represented - some of which is apparently quite beautiful.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  48. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2019
    Messages:
    773
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    It's pretty evident that DTG set their release date before they finished building, seeing as they laid the track and put some buildings in the locked areas. I guess they intended to make them accessible but ran out of time to build and instead of postponing release just released it in an unfinished state.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  49. Mr T

    Mr T Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2018
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    334
    Yardgate, love it (the name, that is.. not the situation we're in).

    I like the route but no one can refute the fact that DTG have done the wrong thing and deceived their customers, whether intentional or not and no matter who knew about it and who didn't.

    In my opinion the right thing for DTG to do would be to:
    1) Apologise for deceiving people
    2) Fix the situation by finishing the map properly and opening it up
    3) Provide a timeline for #2

    Or they might decide to do the wrong thing and get into some semantics about how the whole of the bay area doesn't include the restricted areas or some other nonsense like that.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  50. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2019
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    1,311
    Well, you say that the "semantics" approach would be "wrong", but what do you mean by wrong? I mean, "wrong" is fairly subjective, and it depends on the operational value judgment parameters in the base referential societal framework, where the so-called "wrong" activity, might, or might not have taken place. So you can't talk about these sorts of things in absolutes, or set up a false dialectic.....

    ....LOL... just pulling your Yardgate open a bit... ;-)
     

Share This Page