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Tsw: Switching In The Subdivision!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well - thank you for this very well articulated post. (Seriously, I have worked across the whole of Europe, and your writing is absolutely fine.)

    Your post does make me think. And I didn't want to speculate (see my earlier post) about why the build-out of OSD was dramatically rushed in the end (and well under specification), before release... (in my opinion). But I did actually consider buying all of the remaining DLC on PS4, plus (for the first time) copies of TSW on PC and TS2020 on PC, and a few DLCs... I am talking about a few hundred GBP in total... for three reasons:

    1. To check out the difference with the PC products (and I can afford to...)
    2. To do my bit to boost the coffers (sorry - purse/treasury) at DTG
    3. To buy the stuff now, in case it suddenly becomes unavailable for purchase... ;-O

    But you also have to draw the line somewhere, no matter how much of a fan you are. You can't keep on supporting unfinished and broken content (that remains unfixed years later)... for years and years... or that's what you'll continue to get.... for years and years. Although - maybe that is better than nothing....? ;-(

    Re communication - I do think that they should say something and soon, but what do you want them to say? What will be enough...?

    Finally - as I have posted on another thread (the positive one...) - the PS4 ratings for OSD are a little higher than 4.5 /5 stars (about x100 sample size). So, those buying on PS4, that can be bothered to rate the DLC... really do like it. Makes you think, doesn't it....?
     
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  2. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    One thing to consider, based on my time working in the arts, is that there are probably a lot of people within DTG that are as frustrated and disappointed with final products entering the marketplace in semi-finished state due to deadlines and pressure from management, or things just not going to plan. A lot of DTG's workforce are creative people and creative people care a great deal about the quality of their work, and I'm sure a lot of them would want a better product than this going out.
     
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  3. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    I've said enough about casual console kiddies over the time... thanks for confirming my prejudices once again.
     
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  4. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes. They must be heartbroken (spoken earnestly). When the creatives fully join with the techs, you get something like TVL (or MSB), which is a joy to behold... Maybe TVL will be the pinnacle of what DTG achieve,... but I do hope they go on to do even greater things.....
     
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  5. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    They have the power to change that if they really wanted to. If like you say, a lot of DTG’s workforce care a great deal they should speak with management addressing their and our concerns and explain that taking more time to produce a quality product pays dividends in the long run rather than a half arsed product.

    Everyone wants money now but to ensure a long term product continually makes money you’ve got to take time now to ensure you get to the “long term”. If DTG continue with this way then it’ll be bye bye.
     
  6. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Given the backlash on here it may be worth them saying, "Ok, we've messed up. The route released wasn't the route we wanted to create, it's not the route we marketed, and it's not the route that our loyal fanbase deserves. So, here's what we're going to do; the development resource on our next DLC is going to be postponed by a month to allow our team to finish and open up all of the yards. We'll update the DLC to include all of the illustrated tracks when we're finished. We're sorry, it won't happen again."

    Then, when the next DLC comes out and it does happen again – because that leopard ain't changing its spots – we'll have the option of saying either:

    a) They've done it again, let's go through the whole process again and demonstrate we're not happy with this to get them to finish it, or
    b) They've done it again, let's keep quiet or they'll delay the next half-finished DLC by a month again and I can't wait to give them my money.
     
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  7. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Well-Known Member

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    Hi everyone!

    Following on from our previous post, we wanted to take a moment to discuss the concerns you’ve raised with us about the representation of the map in Oakville.


    We’ve briefly talked before, in previous articles, how we make our routes but to provide a basic recap: Typically, we have a clear idea of the route we want to make and, as a starting point, highlight the key areas that are important to delivering an experience our players will find interesting. In the course of that planning work and building the foundation, it’s not always clear what the player will see from the driving/walking perspective and so, it’s not until we build out that scenery we have an idea on what areas of the route need additional effort. This is to ensure there are no empty spaces where there shouldn’t be such as making sure key buildings are where they’re supposed to be. Once that work is in place we then define the areas that are important for the gameplay we want to represent – i.e. areas of background scenery that are there to fill in the blank spaces between what’s next to the track and further away.


    Oakville inherently contains a large amount of trackwork that we originally did not intend to include. We felt that much of the interesting operational area and important aspects of the route are represented. However, in building out the scenery, we were unable to avoid including other areas and, wrongly, considered this to be entirely background scenery. We appreciate that there are several things we could have done a better job with, such as ensuring the map was clearer from the outset, highlighting what is included, just as a starting point.

    We hold our hands up to this and our team is already working on the representation of accessible areas on maps for Oakville and factoring the concerns raised for all future add-ons so they remain clear and informative. We'll be back with an update when we're ready.

    We certainly regret any disappointment caused and we’ll try to do a better job in future.

    A patch is available today that fixes a couple of other issues that have been raised since launch. Patch notes can be found here: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-pc-updates.15077/
     
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  8. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well - the console market is the market that will probably save both TSW and TS2020, for those that are interested in keeping it all alive...
     
  9. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Nice to hear!
     
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  10. zane88

    zane88 Active Member

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    Oh WOW, Anthony's "boyfriend" has decided to join the show.

    I could"poke" so many holes in your remarks it's not even funny.
    But unfortunately your post is completely void of any logic or sense so i won't bother.

    Something tells me Anthony can take care of himself.

    He is JUST as able as anyone to express himself or "opine" any way he wants.
    No one denies him that.

    And speaking of opining, you sound like someone who just wants to shout at someone because you are bored and petty.
     
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  11. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    That’s fundamentally the opposite of what happens. DTG was built on the PC market and consoles were just a way to expand their market and profit margins. Consoles will greatly contribute to the future of DTG, but eventually PC players, and more importantly the third party developers, will ultimately keep the game alive over the next decade just as they are keeping TS2020 alive as we speak.
     
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  12. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    At least an apology, good.
     
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  13. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's a good starting point.

    Me: Let's hope they update the DLC to include all of those areas, and don't just update the map in the manual to remove them.
    DTG: We're updating the map in the manual.
     
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  14. adamant365

    adamant365 New Member

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    I'll be interested to see what exactly this means. Will it mean building out those areas fully or removing the tracks and/or adding buffer stops so we don't get booted if we stray too far?

    I'm going to remain optimistic for now.
     
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  15. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I think it means updating the manual.
     
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  16. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Dmitri

    Setting aside the misrepresentation of the OSD product, and the quality of the scenery/track build-out at Hamilton.... have the team at DTG had any thoughts about testing DLC before release - in the future? Or to put it more directly...

    Will the next DLC be tested before it is released?

    I set the question out so starkly, because I could not help but notice the sheer amount of bugs, errors, and build quality concerns that were flagged up by players, within just a few hours of the release of OSD. And I wondered, if the product had been tested, even briefly, whether or not these issues could have been picked up and dealt with, before deploying the final build of the DLC for sale...?
     
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  17. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Of course the DLCs get tested!
     
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  18. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Anthony

    Thank you for your comments, but my question was explicitly directed to Dmitri, and I would like an answer from DTG, at some point in the future, on this issue (when they are ready).

    But since you responded - I think that you might be a little optimistic with your view (on testing), and the evidence clearly bears this out. Not even the key new features in OSD worked (ethanol tanker animations).

    However, regarding your earlier post (on the OSD manual).... I think that you are quite likely to be correct..... I get the impression that the drawing of the map in the manual..... for OSD.... will be updated. This is possibly partly to resolve an outstanding legal issue. If OSD owners are lucky, then maybe the redundant track in the Hamilton area will be removed from under the building scenery, and/or will no longer be highlighted on the in-game map (say, if the track is just "switched off" from the view of the mapping widget). It all depends on just how much work/time it will take, to clean it all up... to the satisfaction of DTG's QA/QC people...
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
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  19. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty disappointing that they're only going to update the manual/in-game map, but not too surprising, I guess.

    The strange thing to me is that there IS a tiny portion of trackage (near Bayview junction IIRC) marked as "represented railway, non-player accessible" in the manual, so obviously someone took the time to make that distinction- how was there not a follow-up conversation of "are we sure this is the only inaccessible trackage?"

    Perhaps it's a result of crunch, or people wearing too many hats? We did have a loco DLC and a route DLC release one week apart, which perhaps has happened before, but I don't remember a specific instance. It's hard not to think that OSD was rushed a bit, considering the Baby Bullet DLC is at a much higher standard. Clearly management needs to do some work here to improve the process.

    I still think the route is good (not great!) despite it's faults, and I've put quite a few hours into it doing journey mode. As I've said before, I really like the industrial setting and focus on freight and switching, so perhaps that makes me a little more forgiving than I would be otherwise. I'm slightly optimistic that they got an update out pretty quickly for some of the more egregious bugs, but I really hope we see better Quality Control going forward. I also think a generous (e.g. free or very cheap) follow-on DLC for this route could go some ways towards mending fences with the community, but I understand the view of those who are just done at this point.
     
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  20. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Every DLC gets tested by QA and others. I can promise you that as an active 3th party and 2nd party developer for TS. So please stop your guessing on if things get tested. But you can also imagine, that there is not a 500 people testing team available that plays 12hr a day TS/TSW. Even QA testers doing mistakes or just being bit blind by testing the same stuff every day. No idea what kind of people doing the QA and testings, but they do it. I 'love' these reports that i get every time when my products are in QA. And i believe it is the same with every DLC for TS/TSW. I said earlier exactly that what Dimitri was writing later. It was a mistake in the manual, and it was not intended to make these areas accessable. Tracks get often layed further than needed. Common thing in TS for years. There are many routes for TS out there where you have tracks layed in blank areas. Nothing really new yet.
     
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  21. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your response. Maybe the question should have been: Will the next DLC be tested effectively, before it is released?

    But.... I actually quite like my original question, which I still think is a completely fair question: Will the next DLC be tested before it is released?

    The answer might be a simple "Yes". And that would, of course, be perfectly satisfactory. I am just making a suggestion. I think it would be really helpful to test things before publication - it just looks better to have a tried and tested product. That's all I am suggesting. Nothing controversial.
     
  22. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Dmitri.

    This answers one of the questions everybody here wanted to know, as in whether the inaccessible tracks were ever meant to be accessible. It appears that they were not.

    This still leaves the issue with the marketing including phrases like "Indeed, the expansive industrial trackage around the Hamilton area is virtually a route unto itself!" because it implies that the whole Hamilton area will be included as part of the playable route, which we now know was never the plan This is not a result of a mistake or omission, it is misleading advertising. That's my personal disappointment while looking at this route for a future purchase.
     
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  23. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yep. I think this is just the kind of stuff that would be useful to debate in a "continuous improvement learning point quality circle" internal seminar, sometime later in the year, after a testing programme has been introduced. Might be useful to have the marketing person in the room as well. And a lawyer, to keep the marketing person on the right track....so to speak.
     
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  24. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    im sure when i watched the pre release stream we was told we could go anywhere on the map except on the mainline when doing the free roam thats what made me buy this game not the manual
     
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  25. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I have a funny feeling that the DevStream video that you saw will be taken down, at some point soon, if that hasn't already happened. Just a feeling.
     
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  26. A_normal_name

    A_normal_name Member

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    Sorry but you can't count to infinity
     
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  27. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I’m not really involved in this (except as a concerned TSW fan) as this DLC simply doesn’t appeal to me.

    Just an observation however...if that track is actually removed from the map doesn’t that make the route crazy short? I thought the whole point of this switching business (& the justification for the length of the route) was that all the actual mileage was concentrated in yards with greater detail. If a huge chunk of those yards are not actually available, how many miles of usable track will this DLC actually contain?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
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  28. Oystein

    Oystein New Member

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    Sorry if this has already been answered..
    Is the locked part of the route included in the calculation of the route lenght?
    "24 mile (41 km) route of the Oakville Subdivision between Hamilton and Oakville"
     
  29. Lombra

    Lombra Active Member

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    I don't know what this means. Are you saying that you originally intended for the route to have even less track than it currently does, or that you're going to include more track?
     
  30. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    It means the amount of inaccessible track (as it stands) was intended from the outset.

    He is saying the real life route contains alot of trackwork which was then represented in-game (albeit in an inaccessible state).

    The issue ended up being...the inaccessible sections were poorly communicated to the player in-game, in the manual and prerelease info
     
  31. EMD645E3

    EMD645E3 New Member

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    I hope I am not breaking any rules about speaking out on this if so DTG can delete it but, the issue is not about things being tested its more about DTG having the will to change things when told while testing. Rest assured all the scenery problems with the route have been brought up and brought up again. Yet there is so much we can do. We can't make the edits ourselves so we try to get their attention and hope they take the feedback and use it. The Peninsula Corridor suffers from this as well. Prime example look at the north-end of San Mateo. Not even close as a representation to the area. Or even look at Bayshore. Or Peninsula Corridor itself. A lot of reused assets, very few custom scenery items besides the stations, static grade crossings, etc. All these things have been brought up by testers during development. Yet usually anything that requires rework of scenery or rework of the model gets ignored. Then eventually myself and other testers become extremely frustrated and tired. There is times though were things do get changed but it is a rare case. I have advocated for DTG for a long long time. Heavy supporter. I try to help them where I can in production. They have a lot of capable bodies and is even proven in some of their work visually. Such as for example the MP36 DLC. Best recreation of a locomotive and cab car I have seen to-date. Yet it looks great but it is only that, eye candy. They do not in its current state represent fully on how they function and how they sound. I've worked for the railroad and have been graced with having the opportunity to being able to be inside of similar equipment and know how they function and sound. They are loud, rattly, and fast equipment but not as fast as they are being represented. Nor do they sound like anything that they put out so as a beta tester this information is relayed to them. Still nothing was changed so we continued to relay the issues over and over and over again to the point were I and others become frustrated. Eventually we just give up and let it be. Quality control is a problem with this company. And it is sad that it took for this DLC to come out and people to finally realize that this is not the quality we want nor want to pay for. We need more out outspokenness on the quality of DLC that is being fed to us. DTG needs to slow down and take their time. Take into account as to what their beta testers are saying and actually do something about it. If more time and resources can be allocated to projects then a lot of these DLCs could be masterpieces.
     
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  32. JonnE

    JonnE Member

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    Speaking for myself I try to find out how many hours I probably enjoy a game / DLC I'm willing to buy and how much it costs. If its at about 1€ per possible playing hour it seems like a reasonable purchase for me. I read about that price per value - ratio in a german gaming magazine about 15 years ago and am more or less successfully trying to adopt it since then. :)

    The feedback on this DLC also seems to be better on other platforms as well. In the FB console group many people also seem to enjoy it. I remember this contrary mood during the release of ECW too. But I think this is due to the higher amount of casual users on FB because...

    ... there might as well be grown up train enthusiasts using a console on whatever reason, I know at least one of them ;)

    What could explain the higher ratings is the lack of any alternatives on consoles though. So many people tend to be happy with the offered content because there wasn't any at all before TSW.

    I find myself being a bit less critical as well - because I really like the opportunity to play a train sim since MSTS on PC. :)
     
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  33. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the Forum....!

    This is the most interesting first posting by a Forum Member that I have ever seen.... Thank You for de-lurking... ;-)
     
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  34. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    I think you’re mixing apple and oranges here. When you advertise a product, and put a price range on it, where people spend money on it, they expect to get every bit of what was mentioned in the product description.
    You’d go to a restaurant where they advertise a dish you found to look delicious and got something you didn’t expect. Wouldn’t you be displeased? Or shrug it off as if you got the very thing you went there for and then say you’ll make a return there?

    Something went very wrong here, somebody behind the scenes is certainly to blame. It may not have been the team or not the whole team. It may have been due to poor management. But clearly, someone is more concerned about profit margins, and not the quality of the product put out. So for those who have paid their money to support a product and not gotten entirely what was marketed, deserves answers. Because if this how content is going to be distributed, then TSW is in a lot of trouble.

    The sniping.. Ha. No shame on my part in saying I took part in that. But, when one seemingly has an answer or objection for everything that doesn’t fall in line with their perspective and thinks everyone is supposed to be on board with how they see and view things. That is a sign of not respecting opinions. So Yeah, they’re opening themselves up for it.

    People are allowed to have opinions. And while some of us a bit blunter than others. What needs to be understood it’s not okay to try to act as if it’s a crime that others have objections, especially when they’re valid.

    Anthony needs to learn that he can love something all he wants. But it doesn’t mean everyone has to, or that it’s wrong if they are speaking some level of truth he chooses to ignore or make excuses for.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
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  35. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    So - anyway. Here's a thought....

    Does anyone think that by the time we get to 1st March 2020 (so just over four days from now), that this whole OSD thing will have blown over... and become a faded memory of bygone days.....?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
  36. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    DTG will hope that’s true, especially once they announce the next route. OSD will be a bad memory come whatever the next route is announced, then there is a whole new chapter of bugs to deal with. I don’t envy their job but they don’t seem to make it easy for themselves either.
     
  37. JonnE

    JonnE Member

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    Maybe not that fast but at the latest when the release of TSW 2021 is nearby I would say so. Or, hopefully not, some other catastrophe in a similar extent happens...
     
  38. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Well-Known Member

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    A little care that opinions dont become devalued as a result of an entrenched point of view might be in order..
     
  39. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I would like to agree with you but if the route had been tested like you say it has then while I was walking the route I would not have fallen through a hole in the world. I think that only pick and test what they feel that needs to be tested and nothing more.
     
  40. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Here he goes again!

    I’ve got a console, and I’m also a Chartered Member of the British Computer Society. certainly not a ‘console kiddy’ Then again I’m possibly also prejudiced about keyboard warriors on their pc’s making out that they are the lifeblood of the Train Sim community over and over again until everyone’s sick of hearing the same old crap
     
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  41. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Catastrophe is an exaggeration...it was more poor communication on DTGs part on the represented trackage (which they have acknowledged).

    I will say the backlash may have been less severe if the end to end route length was longer than it ended up being. Most were compensating for this short length with the yardage at Hamilton...
     
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  42. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I entirely agree with your whole post. I have snipped your quote down to the above sentence, because it speaks volumes. This isn't complicated stuff.... If the proposition for OSD was clearly made, then some people would have bought OSD and some wouldn't. Those that bought it would then be raving about it a bit more (and posting lovely pictures)... and some more people would have bought it. Not complicated....

    But then DTG made it way too complicated.... by:

    - making vague hyperbolic statements about how much there was to do, when they could have just given the numbers: six industries, two plants, five yards (or whatever the numbers really are)
    - talking about expansive yards making up for short route length, when they are not actuallly real
    - demonstrating the fake yards on DevStream and clearly telling people you could use all of them to your heart's content under "Hamilton Explorer" and "no-one will judge you" for it, when this was absolutely untrue
    - not (effectively) testing the key feature content
    - not making any attempt at all to optimise the track/scenery in the Hamilton area
    - not proof-reading their own documentation
    - hoping that they would get away with it (over the weekend)

    It's a complete process failure, end-to-end. Shocking really.
     
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  43. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Hi Dimtri,

    Thank you to you and the team for the apology I know is wasn't easy to do but it is a big step in the right direction order to make TSW what it should be. Looking forward to further updates and progress for the Oakville route and anything new down the line.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
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  44. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    How could we forget the strict "no fun" rule on the forums? To be fair the first joke was a little to far but that doesn't mean we can't have some fun.
     
  45. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    My personal view is that as soon as the next DLC is announced, that some simple direct questions should be asked, such as:

    - Have you tested the DLC on a PC, PS4 and XBox?
    - When you do a DevStream, would it be okay if one of the followers randomly chooses a Scenario for you to demonstrate?
    - Are you telling the truth about the scope of the track area?
    - Have you checked that the manual is correct? Will there be a manual?
    - If you put a Press Release on the Forums, will you make someone available to do a Q&A on it, before you start selling the DLC?
    - etc.

    The next DLC must be bullet-proof.
     
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  46. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    BTW there’s an update for TSW especially for Oakville DLC only on PS4
     
  47. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It’s for all platforms.
     
  48. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I meant that he isn’t good at making jokes.
     
  49. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Nothing is ever 100% bug free. Ever
     
  50. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Your next post must be.... not being written at all :) -> i think you got it, if not, hmmm....well....... Your "mission" here will not bring you what you are dreaming of by all your "output" over the last days. It gets anoying, really.
     
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