Discussion in 'News & Updates' started by TrainSim-Martin, May 29, 2018.
How can they release a PS4 version if the Xbox One version does not run fine.
Money! money! money
How much can I be expected to pay for the Xbox digital duluxe edition already owning the GWE? I certainly hope no more than £50...
So what do those who already own the core and routes get?
According to the article; "We're all set"
Sometimes, that’s all that needs to be said.
I had serious hopes that TSW would get to a new level with new features but this is just sad.
DTG consistent as ever in never failing to disappoint.
I'm sorry Martin, but you've really dropped the ball on this one.
To clarify; most of us are not upset that the game is going onto PS4 or being expanded onto Xbox. We're upset because for the last couple of days you've been posting these 'big reveal' teasers when there is really nothing applicable here for the PC community. Sure new players will have a bundle option in the future and that's great for them, but the new players aren't here.
We are; the existing PC community that has been supporting the game for a good while now. Most of us have the DLC options that we want already. Teasing us with a 'big reveal' caused rampant speculation about editors, multiplayer and the Passenger Information System. The hype ran away with itself, as hype usually does, but this shouldn't have been marketed to us in the first place.
You could've built up the whole thing as a 'big reveal' for the Xbox community or been coy and referred to them as the console community. Instead the PC community is now feeling let down or lied too. Not just here but on the Steam Forums and Twitter as well.
I'm happy that Xbox are getting the DLC they've wanted for some time now and I'm alright with the PS4 community coming onboard. I'm just disappointed that any hype was directed at us when it wasn't necessary.
From Discord, and speaking with Matt - the consensus is:
- lied too
- hyped for no reason
- abit screwed over interms of basically buying DLC unaware it was being treat as early access, im now 25 quid worse off for the same product?
- let down, how could you so massively misunderstand and miscommunicate to your community.
Well said, Corvan
DTG will lose their fanbase very quickly. They've lost enough TS fans and now they've ruined the TSW fanbase. DTG, step up your game and listen to us for once.
The 'Big Reveal' was posted to be revealed at 6pm BST, it is not 6pm as yet. Can we be certain this is that? I have to say that if it is I will be extremely disappointed I was hoping for Editor. Still. it is not 6pm.
I wonder what Martin, Steve, Matt etc. thought while reading all those guesses from the community about the "big reveal" lol
Not a single user got even close to this crappy reveal
There may be something else to come, at 18h
From DTGs point of view (if this is the announcement) adding a new console platform IS a big deal for them in terms of commercial opportunities. For people on this forum, who I presume are mainly PC users, it doesn’t represent any sort of leap forward.
Except it does raise the issue of console vs. PC. Is the future of this game more likely console based than PC? We have many threads about what level of PC you need to run TS2018 and TSW effectively. I think we all know that the level of PC specifications and cost is rather out of kilter with playing a train simulator game.
Now I know very little about consoles but does that mean for the fraction of the cost that a suitable PC would be can I run the games at full resolution with decent frame rates and no dumps. Is that the plan?
Now presumably there are downsides to a console that in terms of making your own changes as you can on a PC but then there’s no editor on TSW.
Bottom line is this big news because DTG are focusing more consoles as the best (or at least most cost efficient) platform for TSW? Would that explain things that are missing or don’t seem to be being worked on?
It isn’t going to be easy to pry some of our hands off of our gaming rigs, but is there a chance that we’re missing where this is going and an opportunity to break the ever bigger rig cycle?
I'm sad I was hoping for a Gameboy version
More seriously, this is good news, but very poorly announced
Sorry to say it looks almost certain there will be nothing more. Some guys on the Steam forum are on the Discord with Matt P and he has confirmed to them that this is it.
A big 2 fingers to PC players in general and to those that have bought all the TSW DLC so far.
TSW has expanded its scope to a broader range. Up until this point, the only option for console owners to play TSW when they can't get a PC powerful enough to play on it instead was one single solitary route on Xbox One. I never expected it to come to PS4, let alone giving both PS4 and Xbox One owners to play a British, German and American route in one package. And not only is it digital but its also coming to retail too.
In general terms, this is a BIG announcement. DTG didn't say or do anything to make the PC "community" think it was anything else for them and them alone like editing tools. That was all on the PC community.
I don't think even the Cities: Skylines and Kerbal Space Program community was this toxic when it was announced those games would be going to consoles.
Broadens commercial base of game, handled in an amateurish and incompetent manner. It says something about the lack of cynicism in TSW players that theres actually a level of suprise at todays events.
I hope they eventually do release at least one of the things we want, such as multiplayer, dev tools, etc, the things literally everyone has been going on about. I mean, they know how many people dislike their decision, so maybe something back to us for the people who got lied to.
You just don't get it.
This link is to the Dovetail Forums PC News & Updates. Have a look and tell us what the first post of the thread titled “TSW: The Big Reveal” is...
As Kestrel33 said, I’m not sure you’re getting it.
From the beginning we’ve been sold TSW as a next gen simulator that was going to eclipse Train Sim...what we clearly actually have is a console game that happens to also be on the PC. PC gamers have bought the individual DLC and effectively acted as Beta testers for these console releases. None of the glaring missing features have been fixed, as simulations go it is worse than Train Sim in almost every way and honestly, when you get train sim working to its best on the good routes, I don’t think there’s enough there graphically to differentiate between the two.
These PC - Console ports always end up the same despite what developers say, in that they cater for the lowest common denominator. That will ALWAYS be the console. Consoles don’t do sims, they never have and never will.
I agree with you Hightower. I think existing TS2018 users saw TSW as a replacement (not an unreasonable assumption) whereas it’s a significantly different concept (more simulation game than pure simulation). Putting it another way - as you suggest it’s a console game that works on a PC not a PC game that works on a console. I’m not sure that DTG lied (or gave anyone the finger) but commercially they aren’t going to turn off either console or PC communities at this point. Anyway, it does work on a PC but the issue comes further along when tools that were in TS2018 may not turn up in TSW because they’re not console friendly.
If that is the case then the positive news is that TS2018 might have a longer life than I would have expected because then these two products don’t compete directly. TS2018 is the ‘purist platform’ and TSW the ‘game ready’ route. Perversely because of the newer technology the ‘game’ version may be graphically and functionally more impressive. Part of the answer I think is in VR. Whereas personally I can’t see myself happy with a game controller playing TSW (even if I do sometimes use the keyboard for TS 2018) VR might be a game changer. Moving controls with those new VR gloves would be a huge improvement in immersion. However I’m not sure how many of that type of product exists for consoles at this point, but I would imagine given the size of the market it’s a logical development.
What I fear is that going forward ‘console’ news will be viewed by the PC camp unfavorably. There’s always another view. If I was a new TSW user on a console I’d be asking why the release of DLC was so slow when I could see that there seemed to be so much new product coming out on TS2018, a legacy product.
Basically DTG are running out of cash, so they take all their existing content, rehash it into a heavily discounted bundle and try to flog enough to keep the project afloat for another few weeks. In this last ditch effort the marketing department have managed to alienate pretty much the whole PC user base. Just when you think they couldn't be any more inept, they pull this farce out of the bag!
Edit - Just to state this is my opinion rather than fact, as pointed out below.
All fair points. Maybe the strategy is to eventually let 3rd party developers put the simulation into the PC side of it, whilst DTG essentially take care of the route building and consoles. I could almost get on board with that as, let’s face it, the best bits of Train Sim are almost exclusively by way of third parties.
My fear though is that the limitations of consoles will mean that features that could and should be in the PC version will never appear. It just seems really odd to me that you build your business on one model which has clearly been successful and has allowed the company to grow and attract outside investment. Instead of using those building blocks to develop a new product that keeps and expands your core support to then later branch out, you stick 2 fingers up at the user base that essentially built the business, in favour of a completely untested and notoriously fickle market. I can’t imagine that in general console players fit the demographic of people who are into trains and simulators. Maybe I’m wrong?
Personal opinion is that consoles are great at what they do. What they don’t do is this...at least not well.
Digital Draftsman I know that emotions are running high (sometimes I have to remind myself that we’re talking about a PC/Console game when I read some of the posts) but you know that for a fact, that DTG are running out of cash and that this is a last ditch effort to keep the ‘project afloat’? Because if you don’t know that to be fact you shouldn’t be posting that. It’s one thing not to like their support or DLC it’s quite another to say that a commercial company is running out of cash.
And, if you were running a company that was running out of cash would you be investing the money to support another platform (PS4) or continuing to release new DLC?
Why no comments from Dovetail in this thread? Did everyone cut out early today?
They are all to embarrassed at the mess they have caused!
I did. I have said that it would be that the dlc was going to xbox. Close enough i think
For the first question, it's a fair point you make and I should have been clearer; I don't know it to be fact, it's only my opinion. I've updated my previous post to state this.
As for the second question, yes I would. It's likely cheaper to port existing content onto a new platform than it is to create new content. You also increase your customer base for future DLC by doing so.
What's indicative of a company running out of cash is them bundling all their content together and selling it at a very cheap price. Basically anyone who doesn't have all of the DLC already will now purchase the bundle, anyone who doesn't purchase it now isn't likely to ever buy it. So rather than keep the prices higher to achieve higher profits long term, they are sacrificing higher long term profit for short term cash flow. This combined with FSW recently being cancelled suggests to me that DTG may be struggling to TSW afloat.
Busy getting applications in to other software companies I imagine..
They just lit the blue touch paper and walked away, they will probably return once the flames and sparks have died down.
This is what you consider your big announcement I am disappointed the game is already available on PC and Xbox. It is news that it will be available for PS4 too. But like me I think the rest of us were hoping for GREATER NEWS with such things like the editor now available, or more routes are to come. Couple of others would be rail driver support and multiplayer. Along with bug fixes are being worked on and soon to be released.
I am really hoping that maybe you are holding out on other news to share today during the stream that will wow us and overshadow the console release news.
Michael Newbury, I agree. But I really doubt that they will. They've been doing this huge drum-roll, bad-release cycle for years now.
So much for hoping for an editor, multiplayer, a steam locomotive, or actual physics based on the observable universe. Any of those would have been great.
Just chiming in here to also voice my disappointment about this.
DTG is so incredibly out of touch with their community it's mind boggling. People are creating threads 24/7 criticizing the lack of editor or features any train sim should have but instead of: creating a timeline, posting updates, and actually delivering, they just make empty promises and then end up releasing another overpriced DLC and everyone gets more annoyed thus fueling this cycle.
They desperately need to work on their community relations, that includes more transparency and actually fulfilling features suggestions from us. If they would've been upfront about what this “secret announcement” is, there wouldn't have been nearly as much of a shitshow as there is now. I am getting more and more the impression that they are heavily trying to get a console audience as they are the only train sim in that market.
DTG, it has been said a million times, listen to your community. Even just starting to post regular updates like so many other software developments would be a great first step.
Digital Draftsman on the bundling hasn’t that always been a strategy by DTG to get new users into the platform or buy new DLC. Take the German pack that’s there. Presumably they don’t make money on that but when you have German routes you then may start looking at the other German DLC? On TSW investing in a new product is always risky and a drain on cash but the move to include PS4 is at least an indication of strategy - and it makes more sense to do it now rather than retrofit at a later development point.
On why there’s no response from DTG what do we expect them to say? Sorry you didn’t guess what the release wasn’t about? Remember they’ve said that they are trying to hire a new forum (social media?) resource and until then they’ve got Devs pinch hitting on the task. What could they say that would make everyone happy - answer all of these posts?
Part of the problem, and Steam is far more toxic, is that there are a couple of people who have sold the concept that the more aggressive, rude and extreme you are in your comments the more likely you are to get what you want from DTG. Last night DTG tried to let new users sample TS free and there was clearly some glitch in the release. Now it got resolved a few hours later (and primarily would have impacted the Asia time zone) but its been blown up into an example of everything that is wrong about DTG. Might it have frustrated some new users? Maybe, but provided DTG have that up there for the weekend it’ll serve its commercial purpose. Existing users are then frustrated because they don’t get anything to try for free. Was there ever the indication that was the purpose? They did have a sale on some existing DLC. Wasn’t that focused on existing users? I’m not saying the glitch was a good thing, but go read the threads and some of the comments.
As to whether it was bad marketing to place the announcement on the PC forum if they’d mentioned it on the Console forum and not on the PC one then people would have got upset about that as well. In the end some people will take whatever DTG do and use it against them. With some there’s almost a glee when something bad happens.
So, I’d suggest that DTG aren’t responding is because a) they can’t win and b) there’s no value in them getting into a slanging match on the forum.
I understand that there are frustrations out there but some of the comments (‘greedy devs’) achieve nothing in the way of a solution.
With them having no published or dedicated timeline for any updates, tweaks, or essentials, it's not too far off that they're just telling us about the editor and multiplayer to keep selling us stuff with no expectation to release it. All we hear is "soon" and "hopefully before the end of 20xx". They've been pushing back soft deadlines for useful updates, yet release paid DLC every other month.
Dovetail, if you are reading this, listen to the community. There's been 88 negative posts so far on your company forum in about 12 hours. If you want to make money, take some time to fix existing issues, bring up optimization, and release updates like you promised before TSW even launched 1.25 years ago. Your fanbase is, mildly put, disappointed in you. Churning out crappy DLC's will catch up to you. I think it's safe to say most people on this board won't spend another penny on your products until you actually deliver on your previous promises. Now would be a really good time to work on customer relations, as even the fanboys are starting to turn away. Trust doesn't pay the bills directly, but if you abuse it, you will go under.
Edit: Another point: Your company thrives on a niche group (railfans), and will never be popular in the mainstream environment (simulations have always been). Your business model, while echoing the goldmines of EA, is a bad idea. There's a finite supply of railfans in the world, and most of them have heard of the Train Simulator series. A fair few have tried it. But with every bad DLC or hyped-up nothingburger, you turn your base away. And it's not that big of a base.
Seriously, was that it!?! The BIG announcement
DTG must of have been having a right laugh at the posts of what we were hoping the announcement would be
This went bad...and I feel this could have gone a lot better. I think there is no argument that the execution here on the PC side of things was utterly horrific. On the console side, yeah that was pretty neat for them, but this announcement is very different for PC than for console.
I don’t know who is from marketing. I don’t know if they will ever see this. But here’s some constructive feedback on how you messed up, marketing people:
The main problem: You posted this identical “Big reveal” thing to both the PC and XBOX forums 3 days in advance, which is a problem because....
This implied that both PC and XBOX were getting a similarly big deal change (this is exactly what I was thinking). This was a big reveal for consoles, but it was not a big reveal for PC.
By posting so ahead of time, you purposely built up massive hype on all sides of the community, even explicitly encouraging speculation-which raised expectations for how big of a change this would be far too much.
The announcement comes, and all these expectations you told PC people to have are dashed by something far less revolutionary, which leads to unneeded anger and disappointment that could have been avoided.
To sum it up, what you did was create hype for no other purpose than hype, raising expectations for something that really does not match up to those at all.
Hype may be a good thing. It may be what you marketing folks are trained to do. But you need to manipulate hype in marketing to get expectations around the right place, not make a hype nuke. There are many examples of why a hype nuke of high expectations turns out very bad. (Looking at you No Man’s Sky)
This is simply bad marketing, which is why I’m directing this to the marketing people.
What should have been done: In general, you guys should have reduced the hype and expectations on the PC side, as lower expectations would have lead to less disappointments.
As for how exactly it should have been execuded...I think the “Big reveal” thing should have been posted in just the XBOX forum on Tuesday. The PC forum should then have gotten “We have a bit of a reveal for you too” but only on Thursday/later in the week. As PC is the main problem here, the approach to PC is what needed the most changing, XBOX seems justified though. (This is why people are saying you don’t get the community-did you not realize that what is appropriate hype for consoles is inappropriate for PC?)
This approach would likely help because....
Hype and speculation is being properly directed where it belongs: to the big announcement on consoles. The consoles have a right to get hyped up: they get new DLC! The PC does not have this right because, as the announcement says “You’re all set!”
By making the PC reveal announced later and advertised as not so big, hype has less time to get out of control, and will not grow as quickly as expectations are more in check, but you still let the PC folks know that they aren’t 100% left out.
PC people end up not expecting much from this as it’s a mostly console thing, then are either minorly disappointed that console gets all the attention, or glad to see a bundle of DLC (finally).
To sum that up, don’t equally hype unequal things!!!!!! Give each reveal its due, no more, no less. And, to do that, you gotta be one with the community, know what your audience will and won’t do, and adjust accordingly. You want to make everyone happy, right?
Of course, this is all with a heavy dose of hindsight bias. Yes, different things would have prevented this, but could anyone have predicted this before it all happened? I think so. By the time you saw people saying “if it’s not X I’ll be disappointed” with X being a much bigger thing than a DLC bundle you could have realized this got out of hand and stopped it then. Even before this all started you should have known the community well enough that this would be percieved differently on the XBOX and PC sides. But maybe my expectations of marketing, like this reveal, were too high...
To be honest, yeah, your expectations, like most others, were too high. Though, I do also admit this was well stated and put together and I agree with a lot of the points you made, so you have almost no argument from me.
But, I will say, as I’ve said earlier in the post that having too high of expectations of anything (and especially anyone) outside of yourself will almost always set yourself up for disappointment. I think when more people in this community really understand that and try grasping not that concept, they’ll save themselves from exerting so much negative energy/backlash @ DTG. But you did bring up some pretty valid points.
"Powered by Dovetail Games’ new SimuGraph® vehicle dynamics engine and Unreal Engine 4® technology, Train Sim World uses real-world data to accurately replicate the performance, sounds and feel of real trains."
Perhaps, perhaps not.
As I warned, to me this does not count as a big reveal. I can understand it is a major step for DTG to have all stuff combined in a single code base. This is OK, but as customer playing the game at a PC, I do not care at al about the consoles.
DTG, will please only call something a big reveal if you have really new features to announce? Until that moment, be modest, do your job. You may inform us on progress a little more that keeping your mouth shut completely. We're the fans, remember?
The Big Reveal...
Feels like the days you'd get bowled for a 50 instead of a 47 on a Padd-Oxford.
Pschlik if they had juust made an announcement on the console section wouldn’t there have still been issues? PC users would probably have seen the posting and then the conversations would have started about why there was a release on the console side when all of the PC ‘issues’ haven’t been addressed yet.
For DTG including the PS4 is big news. Some 70 million PS4s have been sold at the end of last year so this is a big market. For me, a PC user who had been considering buying the game it is also useful news. Now I will hold off and see how far along the console route it goes (and consider buying a console in the future). If nothing else this release makes me think this isn’t going to be TS Mark 2, but more game like.
If there’s a marketing error I’d suggest it was having any sort of preannouncement at all. If there’s a sale coming it’s good to know but this announcement doesn’t have anything actionable by the client. Why not just wait until they want to release this to the world?
Generally if you read forum posting people’s expectations of DTG at this point aren’t high. When FSW got canned there was some commentary in the boards that TSW would be next. This is probably the biggest piece of news about TSW since the shuttering of FSW and does suggest that DTG are committed to the product. Now, that doesn’t solve many people’s problems but to say that this doesn’t have anything for the PC crowd isn’t exactly true. TSW must be doing well enough that they got the green light for adding PS4.
Not necessarily; the latest update is another cash-grab DLC pack that brings nothing new that we haven't seen before.
You just really don't get it do you?
They posted in the PC forum about a 'big reveal' and encouraged everyone to speculate as to what the 'big reveal' would be. With previous DLC they didn't say there would be a 'big reveal' and start a count down. So quite reasonably people assumed that it would be a 'big reveal' for the PC and something bigger than just a route or loco DLC. People's expectations were justifiably high. And then DTG informed PC users that the 'big reveal' is that the DLC they paid £75 for will now be available for £40.
On the FSW Facebook on April 11th DTG posted 'We're looking to the future of flight, building a simulation platform for the future', they then went on to boast about the new 'Career Mode' and continued to promote the DLC. A couple of weeks later FSW was scrapped. Given how DTG were claiming the future for FSW was bright just days before it was canned, I don't regard TSW on the PS4 as indicative of success.
Separate names with a comma.