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Tsw: The Big Reveal...

Discussion in 'News & Updates' started by TrainSim-Martin, May 29, 2018.

  1. nextgenlemon

    nextgenlemon Member

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    You have to remember that FSW was a completely different market, and FSW was competing against a number of other flight simulators. The business model wasn't good enough for competing, which meant FSW was basically a suicide mission.
    TSW is something completely else though, considering it is using some of the latest and most popular technology, unlike FSW, but also because there are no competing train simulators except for their own TS1. But the problem here is, that DTG announced an announcement, and you usually don't do that unless it is some very big news that from a developer's point of view will benefit everybody. The fact that they pre-announced the announcement for these console additions (in the PC forum as well!) made people hype this announcement up a lot, however the majority is left disappointed because it is in fact quite a small announcement in my opinion.
    This is far from a breathtaking new feature or a game, it's an expansion to the core, so they can cover another, and possibly quite small, market. They have basically announced, that they can now make money from another group of people, and pre-advertised this announcement as a "big reveal".

    Moving on to something else, it seems that the mods on the livestream were not too happy to see our responses, making good use of their timeout buttons to quite innocent but point-proving messages. Mine was something along this:
    "This announcement is quite disappointing. It's like if a train operator announced new free wifi service, but it turned out at the end of the day that it was only on this small branch line that nobody uses."
    Anything wrong with that? Not from my point of view, I am just stating my opinion! So I have posted it here now. And as I said as well: Delete my messages all you want, but you cannot delete the truth.
     
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  2. MillerPC

    MillerPC Member

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    I'm sure DTG knows the content we want, especially since we flood the forums and stream chat about it. So when they say "BIG REVEAL/ANNOUNCEMENT" they should obviously know what we're looking for. Don't get me wrong, if you're on console, congrats, you have content to play now. But if you're on PC, you practically got pushed under the train by DTG. As stated above, this should've been thought out more, and better planned. Maybe next time...
     
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  3. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    No Kestrel you don’t get it.

    1. The concept that there are two different development paths, one for PC and one for consoles isn’t going to happen. It’s one product for different platforms.
    2. As another post said earlier in a shared platform the lowest denominator will apply. This game will be limited by what it can do on a console. People may want features but the ‘openess’ of TS on a PC probably isn’t going to apply. What you believe is the target for TSW may not be what DTG’s plan is.
    3. Whatever DTG do people complain. First that DTG aren’t communicative enough, then they say that they don’t communicate well. People complain there’s no one on the forum, then they laugh when the DTG person gets voted down. People’s suggestion is to ‘nuke’ them.
    4. DTG are a commercial company. Someone, a professional, who has access to the figures, finances and resources has decided that including PS4 in the platform was more worthwhile/necessary than other priorities. Their call, their risk. As a commercial company they are not going to share a lot of information with other than their broad plans and near term updates. Do you think all of this ‘horror’ that the news was ONLY an update that a new platform was being added to the product is going to encourage them to be more communicative?

    So, until reality is grasped you are going to be unhappy.
     
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  4. Juxen

    Juxen Active Member

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    nextgenlemon, I'd say they're in similar markets. Both FSX and TSW cater to a small number of people, and there are competitors on each.

    TSW is up against TS201x, Run8, Trainz, and OpenRails. I just bought Diesel Railcar Simulator today, instead of the Somerset Railway expansion, as I think I'll get more for my money out of a sim created by one person who is actually dedicated to making good content. I bought the NEC expansion while it was on the presale ($18), but I've spent $15 today on DRS, and a further $181 on Run8 in recent months. Their market isn't so large that they can afford to turn away a substantial (probably 80%+) of their userbase.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  5. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Juxen I agree 100% that this is very much a niche product, though if TSW is going ‘Console game’ that may be less true. I know that most of the posts here today and on Steam have been negative but do we know that the posters are representative of TS and TSW users? I’d always figured that the posters were for the most part the very involved, long-term (knowledgable if you want) users of the software, sort of the top 1-2% of users. The people who maybe view this as something more than just another game. Influencers let’s say.

    So I’m kind of curious as to how you get to that 80% of the user base. I’m not saying you’re wrong but my guess is that the majority of DTGs revenues come from a large number of casual users who have just a few pieces of DLC and play occasionally, not posters on this board. Why do you think it’s 80% of the userbase?
     
  6. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Why do you say that Kestrel? In the past month I’ve spent around $200 at AP and $80 on Just Trains and maybe $20 at DTG. That’s a far better message for them to consider longer routes and more complex DLC than ‘let’s nuke them’.

    Having a different opinion doesn’t make me a ‘fan boy’
     
  7. Juxen

    Juxen Active Member

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    In this case, I mean that PC users are probably 80% of the userbase. And the reason I think that is because train sims (outside of the mainstream in Japan) have always been on a PC.
     
  8. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    What’s AP Medellnexpat? I’m looking at various downloads etc but like to find out a bit before I buy. I’m finding a lot of scenarios and routes require further content so it’s all a bit confusing tbh..
     
  9. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    AP stands for Armstrong Powerhouse, which is a very high regarded third party developer for Train Simulator. They make enhancement packs for trains, sound packs, and even some all new trains. https://www.armstrongpowerhouse.com/
     
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  10. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the long post but...

    I think we all know DTG don’t owe us anything, It’s a free market and we can all choose whether or not to buy their products. I happen to like Train Sim, I’d seen what I thought was potential in TSW and so have bought all the DLC. My wife would tear me a new one if she knew exactly how much I’ve spent this year on their stuff.

    As a customer in the UK at least, I have the right to complain when a product I buy doesn’t work as advertised or isn’t as I expected it to be. In my opinion, the truth is that TSW isn’t very good. I’ve tried to see it with a cup half full attitude but it still has far too many bugs, the world feels absolutely dead and the simulation aspect of it is killed by missing or incorrectly implemented features. I stand by the fact that I believe it isn’t anywhere near as good as its predecessor, particularly when you start adding in 3rd party stuff from the likes of AP. It is just fundamentally wrong that, for example, the Armstrong Powerhouse HST knocks spots off the TSW version in every respect. That isn’t how it’s meant to be!

    So I think that leaves DTG with a problem. On the whole people have been patient and supportive of them, and have been quietly waiting for some progress with this product. Progress, remember that has been promised over and over again. Close to 1.5 years on from initial release, and going against the grain of every other release so far, they choose to stick an image in the PC section of their forums about a big reveal, and underscored it with “Whatever could it be? The thread is hereby open for theorycrafting!” They have to know that everyone is crying out for an editor, multiplayer, implementation of broken and missing features, better sound, bug fixes etc.

    Seemingly with a straight face though, they tell us that the DLC we’ve all paid money for, and persevered with through some pretty shoddy development is going to be released on consoles at a significantly lower price than we’ve paid, leading in my mind at least, to some serious questions about what TSW is, and where it’s going. Matt P said tonight that all future DLC is to be released as multi-platform content and I think we all know what that means. After today I no longer believe TSW is going to be what I thought it was. I understood it was to be a next-gen sim to eclipse Train Simulator which was how DTG sold it from day 1.

    They are either very deliberately going down this road, or they really are so out of touch with the core support/customer base (that helped grow and expand their business) that they genuinely can’t understand why a lot of people are hacked off. In either case there really is no hope.

    Perhaps this might jog their memory...

     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
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  11. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Juxen yes, you are probably right but perversely that might explain the TSW Console focus. As globally (with some using both) PC and Console gaming is a sort of 55/45 split the fact that consoles are ‘underserved’ with TrainSim games might look like a business opportunity.

    hightower excellent post. Perhaps they think they can keep the existing users on TS and attract new blood on TSW? I’d argued in the past that they should look to moving TS to the Pro definition that some of the DLC has and using TSW as a game platform for new users until it was sophisticated enough to become a TS replacement.
     
  12. Trainmania100

    Trainmania100 Active Member

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    Am I the only person who's looking forward to playing NEC and Dutchybahn on my Xbox?
     
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  13. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    Well, here’s the thing. What may be a big deal to some, isn’t to others. It’s all about perception. Speculation is just a discussion where people are throwing out ideas, theories of something they have no concrete information about.

    You can look at a plate of food and to some one with a small appetite it can be a lot, to someone with a huge appetite it just be considered a snack.

    This community is mostly filled with individuals with huge appetites. And at most times, more than is presented. Granted, hardly anyone new what the big reveal was until it was announced, so there wasn’t that much to go on, therefore those with high expectations (aka huge appetites) were disappointed with the information presented.
     
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  14. Trainmania100

    Trainmania100 Active Member

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    No doubt they're working flat out to get this content on Xbox NEC only came out a few months ago so it's good going.
     
  15. AyrtonS8

    AyrtonS8 Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind them announcing that TSW in now available as a full package for PC, Xbox and PS4. Its the way they built up all this hype and teasing us that I don't like.

    They teased us saying this is 'TSW The Big Reveal'. Passed routes for TSW didn't have this much hype which shows that people were kinda expecting this is be really big, maybe Multiplayer or the Editor Tools. They would of been a big reveal as it would benefit all of the players. To come out and say that the announcement is that you can buy TSW as a package/bundle is not a big reveal, its more informative rather than a big exciting reveal. Its only going to benefit those who don't already have TSW.

    Its sort of looking like DTG enjoy building up the hype too high and see us disappointed after they announce what they want to announce.
     
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  16. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    Well DTG should understand the people they are advertising too. People who are waiting a lot on words and promises and feeling quite neglected, keeping out a vigilant eye for any indication of something happening that they actually want to happen.

    If the marketing people properly realized they were marketing a sim/game/whatever with a lot of very passionate people who want it to go far and wide, and knew how to control their perception of whats up, they would not have encouraged such blind speculation. You don't tell people who want everything to guess what's coming-because they'll say everything is coming.
    The route teasers are usually well done on this front, as they aren't just "something is happening!": they actually have clues, making speculation that is based on logic and fun. This had no clues. No limits to what junk could be produced from the human mind.

    I wholeheartedly think this is DTG's fault. Yeah, the community are the ones who made all these crazy theories-but that did not begin until after the teasing. You didn't see people saying "the editor better be coming tomorrow or I'll be upset" a few weeks ago since there was nothing to provoke this...like saying "speculate away!"
     
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  17. Lombra

    Lombra Member

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    Don't really understand everyone complaining about reduced package price. You've never heard of games getting price reductions or GotY editions or similar?

    Disappointed in the hype.
     
  18. nextgenlemon

    nextgenlemon Member

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    Let's not forget that we on the livestream when expressing our disappointment, that we were being blamed for having too high expectations. Sorry Dovetail, for expecting something big of this "big reveal".
     
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  19. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    The reason is DTG made hype that there was a announcement on June 1st, so we were all expecting the route editor would finally be available. But instead the hype is all about the game being available for all three consoles, when it was already available on two of them. It is nice about price reductions.
     
  20. Shukal

    Shukal Well-Known Member

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    I would have at least expected something like: "If all goes to plan an editor will be available in x weeks/months." and not just nothing at all.
     
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  21. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    I find that DTG tends to avoid any form of even remote commitment on dates they aren’t really sure about, and would probably not even dare estimate when the editors would be ready over worry of the estimate wrong and making people expect the editors when they wouldn’t come...oh wait, that’s ironically what they managed to do just here.

    Situations like this are why they do and will continue to avoid commitment. Even though other stuff is far less likely to be this infuriating. Though the marketing people don’t seem to be too intent on avoiding that regardless.
     
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  22. Shukal

    Shukal Well-Known Member

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    A delay would probably come over better than this PR desaster.
     
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  23. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    They don't need to give dates. Just a developer blog post like 'this week the Route Building Team have been recreating Henley on Thames station for our up coming Thames Valley Branches DLC, check out these screen shots!' or 'The Tools Development Team have been working on the new GUI for the Scenario Editor, what do you think about this aspect of the design?' Just something that lets the community know what's coming and demonstrating progress is being made.

    SCS who make ETS2 and ATS have a good blog: http://blog.scssoft.com/

    Here's what they wrote about the Krone Trailers DLC:
    "Our work on Krone Trailers DLC continues at full pace. We are not yet ready to announce a specific release date other than "later this year," but we hope that these videos will serve as a nice teaser for the project."

    This is how DTG should go about community relations, rather than maintaining radio silence until it's time to flog the next DLC.
     
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  24. Shukal

    Shukal Well-Known Member

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    It's also kinda baffling to me that absolutely no attempt was made to save the situation. They could have probably announced another announcement or whatever and it would have gone over better than this.
     
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  25. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    Well again, pschlik, you have some points there. However, you have other gaming companies that does things like this, some with little hints, and people still running miles of speculation just to find themselves being disappointed when their own personal expecations arent met.

    You see a lot of this all throughout the GTA Community as well. And you probably know just how widely popular that game is. Truth of the matter is, with just about every announcement DTG makes, there is always going to be a number of people who are going to be unhappy.
     
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  26. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    I’m not saying that everyone is going to be happy, of course. It’s just that there are many better approaches to this that could have made less people unhappy...or at least not been telling people “go and do stuff that’ll make you upset.” Though that seems to be what DTGs been good at.
     
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  27. Cherryva

    Cherryva New Member

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    I would like one for the Android phone also. It would be a great idea
     
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  28. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    You’re joking right?
     
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  29. Cherryva

    Cherryva New Member

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    Right, if PS4 is the Big Reveal then Android version would be great
     
  30. 85Leaf

    85Leaf Member

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    That and on the Wii
     
  31. Trainmania100

    Trainmania100 Active Member

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    The Wii is old now, it's Nintendo switch, basically a gaming tablet. Not as powerful as Xbox but still a possibility for the future
     
  32. davejc64

    davejc64 Active Member

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    I'm sure I read somewhere they are going to do a Atari 2600 version. :cool::D
     
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  33. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Well-Known Member

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    yeah i am waiting for the Gameboy Pocket port myself
     
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  34. thealexxc

    thealexxc New Member

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    it may be necessary to stop going wild as it returns to interesting discussions and let time DTG (Google translation)
     
  35. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Active Member

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    This. Sir, you have nailed it. Spot on.

    DTG - Read this!!!
     
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  36. GothicMatt

    GothicMatt Member

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    Consoles dont do sims really? thats why theres sim 1 to 4 on console aswell as the urbz, sim city, cities skylines so u cant say console dont do sim games
     
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  37. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    You'll realise at some point that 'having a life' doesn't constitute working as many hours as you can before you die. I also think that when people spend their hard earned money on a product which is buggy and missing content, they are well within their rights to express some frustration, especially when DTG are exporting that content to other gaming platforms before they have fixed it for the existing gaming platforms.
     
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  38. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    If everyone had that chain of thought...gosh the world would be boring. Work is not life mate, hobbies exist for a reason: because people are passionate about something. Seriously, this entire issue is a lesson in running with a hobby...gotta consider how much people DO care about this stuff when actually making the game in the first place!
     
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  39. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Member

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    Just to throw in my two cents here... I get the need to expand your customer base. It makes sense, as corporations are a profit driven enterprise; and opening the doors to a whole slew of potential new customers is a reasonable thing to expect a company to do. Bundling at the same time, to offer a discount, makes sense, too. Again, I can't fault DTG for trying to bring new revenue streams in. And I have a feeling that it wasn't the developers who decided to go this route--my guess is that corporate said 'this is a huge console with millions of players, see if you can capture some of that market'. I think, basing off YouTube, as poor a metric as that may be, that simulator games are experiencing more popularity and wider appeal, thanks to Let's Plays and the like. So if that appears to be a trend, it just makes economic sense to jump in and try to capitalize on it.

    However, this announcement was not handled well. It's not even funny--okay, it's a little funny--how poorly this was seemingly planned. I'd rank it right up there with Microsoft's Xbox One reveal conference, where nobody in marketing realized that a core audience of gamers, watching a video game console reveal, at a video game conference, might not be overly thrilled to hear 'now you can watch TV on your Xbox,' 'you can now watch cable TV through your Xbox,' 'Xbox is going to be the entertainment center of your home,' and, finally, 'oh yeah, by the way, it also plays games.' In short, this was marketing to entirely the wrong audience.

    I think enough has been said about the actual reveal/announcement itself, so here are some questions--that I, regrettably, doubt DTG will answer--and concerns that I have about the future of TSW, now that it's being shared over three systems.

    First: does this mean that future PC content for TSW is going to be limited by the hardware and, there's no nice way to say it, attention span of console gamers? Console gamers probably aren't as interested in the simulation aspect as they are in just plugging the game in and driving right away--so is that going to impact the design decisions of PC DLC moving forward?

    Second: is PC development going to continue ahead and separately from the consoles, adding richer features, better graphics/lighting/textures, etc., than can be supported by the hardware of the least-powerful console [in this case, the original Xbox One]? Or are future routes/features going to be designed with all three systems in mind?

    Third: does this mean PC support and updates are going to be less frequent and/or [possibly a positive] more comprehensive, as Microsoft and Sony charge for testing and releasing patches/updates to content over their consoles?
     
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  40. MillerPC

    MillerPC Member

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    I didn't know the definition of having a life meant working 5 days a week and having a total of 40 hours! Woah! In all seriousness, working till you drop isn't having a life. Your logic seems to be to allow people who sell you something broken. HOWEVER, We here do not allow that to happen. If someone sold you food and it wasn't made properly you're still gonna eat it or get it fixed? If someone made clothing for you and it wasn't made properly you're still gonna wear it? That's my point.

    We here enjoy the content DTG brings us, which is why we are complaining and ranting this hard. Understand that all of this has SOO MUCH potential but it's all going to waste if we keep getting ignored and DTG has a history of doing this and if we don't express our thoughts now they'll continue to do try to do it to us and TSW will and up in the trash the same way FSW did.
     
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  41. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    heyitspopcorn good post. On your questions my thoughts are

    - TSW to me does look increasingly as if it’s focused towards the console ‘game’ direction. For example take route length. Short routes facilitate the ‘quick’ locked in looped game. You can ride the train, you can drive the train, you can choose what train you get on that’s in the station but I remain unconvinced that you’ll be able to build a consist either soon or perhaps ever.

    Whether it has to be built to the lowest common denominator I don’t know, for example do consoles dial down content if it is too graphically intense? However there’s presumably some base line in terms of say memory that becomes a bottom line constraint. Of course consoles will develop and become more powerful (as will PCs) so over time capabilities could increase.

    In terms of updates you are correct in that now all releases will need to be tested on multiple platforms but then - given that PC specifications are so diverse- in some ways it becomes an easier solution. Train and Flight simulators have of course always been the exception in gaming with huge amounts of DLC. I’d expect with the console base that will change (you’ll be buying content ‘packages’) and so the world of buying a DLC loco might go away.

    I completely agree with you about the corporate decision. One, I think they are trying to move more mainstream, two I think that the see the console market as completely fresh and a totally different user demographic to TS and thirdly I think they want a more global reach. There are consoles all over the world in a country like Colombia where I live consoles far outnumber gaming PCs if for no other reason than the price. In the past they’ve been presumably very dependent on the UK enthuasist market. I’d argue that if you wanted to expand your customer base places like India and China (both with railway cultures) would be obvious targets.

    None of this of course goes in the direction that the existing user base finds useful. A while back I suggested that DTG should do more to differentiate the two products marketing wise. Until they do so TSW looks like the new 64 bit version of TS and people not unreasonably anticipate at LEAST the same functionality. But that may not be DTG’s plan.

    Lastly what DTG are doing in offering a game over multiple platforms isn’t ground breaking. There’s an argument that not including consoles for the new product might have been stranger than doing what they’ve done.
     
  42. Ian1991

    Ian1991 Active Member

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    I just find it funny how in the stream almost every question about future content was answered by 'we would like to but cant answer that'
    They can make routes as long as they like, they can make ANYTHING for TSW but 'it takes alot of time so its something were hoping to improve'
    Basically cant be bothered......we know our routes are short and thats tough.........play the most realistic train simulator *but only a short piece of any route we make*.......urgh
     
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  43. Ninetofive925

    Ninetofive925 Well-Known Member

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    I cannot agree with you more. The dev diaries would be a solution to that problem but sadly they've stopped making those for some reason.
     
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