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Tsw: The Tees Type Two

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    How many Locos, EMU & DMU’s have DTG made for this game thus far? It may be as many as 20, possibly more. Personally, I think they are getting pretty good at it and have seriously upped their game from the vast majority of their TS1 offerings (that’s not to say that some of them couldn’t be better in some areas, or that I’d not like to see them push the boat out a bit with some of the features), but on the whole I’m happy with the content they’re releasing.

    With that said, I find it highly implausible that all of a sudden this one offering has massive memory issues preventing it from being used alongside a certain DLC. Of course, I could be completely wrong but I’m not so sure that I am.

    It is undeniable that DTG are making strides with TSW. I do question the logic behind some of what they do (in what I’d hope is a constructive way - the query re scenarios being an example), but you can’t be critical of the game now, based upon your opinion of where it was 18 months ago.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
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  2. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    In response to the posts made whilst I was typing, I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Anthony!

    Matt has clearly said why the 31 can’t be included in service mode on NTP. It sounds like there’s a known but as yet un-identified issue with memory usage on the route, where adding another layer to service mode would risk tipping it over the edge.

    I would still question why that should mean a number of NTP scenarios couldn’t be bundled into the 31 pack however. I’ve no doubt DTG could have 5 people create a scenario each over a single day (2 at most) and hey presto, more attractive pack = more revenue.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
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  3. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Agree hightower but it is quite annoying that other people automatically assume it’s a console issue. If they give evidence to support that I’m fine with it
     
  4. fpriotto520

    fpriotto520 New Member

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    You probably don't understand the meaning of the speech.
    When a person is obtuse there is little to do.
     
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  5. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Me too, as it’s an assumption repeatedly made but not backed up with any evidence, as you say.

    Matt has said time and again that the console side of things does not affect the PC. I have a PS4 and given it’s age it’s still an impressive piece of kit. Given the lack of any proof to the contrary, I’m inclined to trust what Matt says.
     
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  6. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    yep and I’m now level 331 so I’ve put a few hours into TSW. I have not suffered by being on console so not sure why people are accusing people of being ‘obtuse’ when if they read what they themselves wrote they are doing exactly the same and completely narrow minded
     
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  7. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    I suppose the only person that could really clear this up is Matt. My take on Matts response was that due to a memory issue going on with NTP currently (unresolved). The DTG team are looking for a needle in a haystack. Its not that the 31 means armageddon for NTP. He just doesn't want to add more hay to that haystack whilst the programmers look for the problem. My worry is that once we’ve bought the 31. After solving the NTP issue. The class 31 layer will stay on the low priority pile. As new dlcs come along.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
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  8. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    It’s not the Class 31 per se, it’s the addition of an extra layer to service mode. It can’t be substituted into current service layers for the reasons given.

    I take it that he’s saying he could attempt to add another service layer with any other loco and it would risk the same problem with memory usage on NTP.

    Scenarios on the other hand...
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
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  9. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    The Class 31’s physics are the biggest issue. It isn’t sting enough to pull the trains on NTP on its own, and it can’t substitute with two locos.
     
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  10. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    It could pull the 12t van service. Or the 5 coach Huddersfield to leeds? Or have it land as a sub for the 33 on WSR by mistake.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
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  11. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Doesn’t stop scenarios being created though, does it?
     
  12. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Locos are never just put in scenarios, always service mode and scenarios. It’s all or nothing.
     
  13. Manfonse

    Manfonse Member

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    Here’s a solution, PC gamers should switch to consoles. Stop frigging about with your keyboards and your mouses and sit back and recline with a game controller and chill with a beer and a kebab.
     
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  14. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly if it was high priority, I think NTP memory patches would be imminent. (Who knows maybe with the 31 prep patch there will be) I think they're busy doing other things, making sure a route is ready for Christmas maybe. Looking back the 33 came in only as a straight swap for the 47 and 3 scenarios. It wasnt until the 52 dlc that the route was revised and populated.
     
  15. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Just because it hasn’t been done before doesn’t mean it can’t be done now. It’s going into service mode on TVL anyhow.
     
  16. Mikey_9835

    Mikey_9835 Active Member

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    I really hope TVL gets a Journey mode with the 31.
     
  17. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    I think the 31 would probably do okay on the news/TPO, expresses, 12T van stuff and probably the empty oil trains. It won't do them especially quickly but it will probably do them... just.
     
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  18. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    1 mph. :p
     
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  19. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Would be nice to find out!
     
  20. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    I know it will do them, heck I've got a picture of a 31 on 20 odd empty Newspaper coaches returning from Heaton (about 700T) crossing Saddleworth viaduct. I think the longest and heaviest of those lot ingame are the News at I think 14 or 16 coaches (455-520T ish), quite how well it would keep time though is another matter and one I cannot really predict :P
     
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  21. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Think the van collection service is around 8 vans (96 tons). Less than a single TEA tanker. Easy!
    How do you reckon it would handle a double headed rake of tanks as a 31 leading a 40, DominusEdwardius if that was a possibilty in tsw?
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  22. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    That is why I started my post with 'If I was to speculate...' ;)

    Consoles affecting PC development is not an assumption, it's just something that happens during the development of multi-platform games.

    It's a fact that consoles are behind the PC version of the game as the PC version has CSX:HH, superior textures and a greater quantity of AI. So I think it's a fair assumption that if there is a performance issue then it's likely down to the consoles as they have a static minimum spec where as PCs have a dynamic minimum spec. As an example TS2016 required a minimum of 2GB of RAM, TS2019 required a minimum of 4GB of RAM. Consoles games don't have the option of increasing the RAM requirement beyond that which is supplied with the console until a new version of the console is released, this also assumes that the new console will have legacy capability, which on release the Xbox One didn't for Xbox 360 games.

    For Matt to say that the performance of consoles has no bearing on the PC development is just untrue. Of course developers will take into account the hardware of both consoles and PCs and make some compromises, it's a normal part of development, ask any developer who isn't expressing themselves through PR spin. Certainly during the development of the various DLCs there will be a feature which hasn't been implemented because it wasn't possible to implement it on both PC and console; as someone who develops software I don't see that as a controversial statement, it's just the way multi-platform games are developed.

    I should say that I own PCs and consoles and each have positives and negatives, so it's not as though I'm trying to put down consoles.
     
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  23. fpriotto520

    fpriotto520 New Member

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    Exactly.
    I also owned PCs and consoles until recently. But here every reasoning is taken as a personal attack.
    In the end it is a problem of general culture.
     
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  24. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    How it would cope on the double headed oil trains if it was leading (or trailing) a 40.... it wouldn't. I'm fairly confident it would slip itself to a stand on Miles Platting bank
     
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  25. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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  26. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    In all likelihood that probably wouldn't be going via the Standedge line but probably via the Calder valley which means it could take the much shallower graded line via Red Bank, it also may be empty and certainly not 18 wagons long :D

    edit: it even says it is empty in the description
    "31170 runs empty oil tankers eastbound through Manchester Victoria"
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  27. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Looks like it's well on the power to get up Miles Platting. Some blur and quite a bit of clag so wouldn't have thought it was about to hit the curve for Red Bank. But yes, empty so maybe not that much of a problem.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  28. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    Regardless 9 or so empty tanks is probably more than fine for a 31, empty tanks are only 27 tons apiece.
     
  29. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. So an easy sub on NTP. However, I think it would be unusual for the empties to be hauled by anything different than the loaded tanks.
     
  30. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Don't think its a big deal not having the 31s on tanks, as they weren't that common a sight. The 47s and 56’s were the preferred option for these services.
     
  31. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree. It would also make sense to do it for NTP from a business point of view as NTP is far more popular than TVL. We know that NTP is more popular because it's rated higher on Steam, on Steam Charts it had higher average and peak players on release, and this poll on the forum also shows it to be the most popular TSW route at the moment; five times more popular than TVL.

    With Christmas on the horizon and NTP at peak popularity compared to the other routes, I bet there's some management at DTG bitterly disapointed that development team couldn't get the 31 to work with NTP.

    If it was released for NTP I'd have bought it, but for TVL I won't or at least not until it has a significant discount. I'm sure many others will feel the same.
     
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  32. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    But the class 31 (I have since found out) is a more useful locomotive for the TVL rather than NTP so why would they release it for that route? Also we haven't had any DLC for TVL released yet so I don't know how you can say that with such certainty!

    I will get it as I think TVL needs some more variety and am happy to wait for it to one day be available on NTP.
     
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  33. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    It's only more useful on TVL in the context of substituting one-for-one with 40, 45 and 47 services on NTP. If it was supplied with the appropriate stock to haul solo as well as the option to substitute on a two-for-one basis with 40, 45 and 47 hauled services on NTP, the pre-refurb BR Blue Class 31 would be a more appropriate locomotive on NTP rather than the TVL.

    If we had a post-refurb Rf Grey Class 31 then I'd believe it was planned for TVL. Also, if the rollingstock provided with the pre-refurb BR Blue 31 was engineering wagons, I may also entertain the idea it was planned for TVL.

    Let's not forget, DTG is a business, why would they choose to create DLC for a less popular route when creating it for the most popular route would result in more sales?

    Everything points to this DLC having been intended for NTP.
     
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  34. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I would guess that you would need to ask BR, as 31s were used on the route.

    It's definitely an '83 vintage 31 in a supposedly '89 TVL which would have used very different looking machines on the cement traffic.
     
  35. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    upload_2019-11-5_13-47-57.png

    31139 was converted to a 31/4 (31438) in March 1984.
     
  36. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Does it really matter?

    It looks like a good loco...TVL is a nice route and this pack will really enhance it. Sure, it’d be good to see the 31 usable on NTP sometime (soon please!) but it’s not the end of the world that it’s only on TVL for now. I’ve no doubt someone will reskin it in double time for those that want it.

    It’d be a nice touch to see journey mode and mastery added to TVL as part of this release cycle but either way, it’ll be a nice addition to the game.
     
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  37. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Like everything, it will matter to some and not to others. I don't think it will stop many from buying it. It doesn't bode well for NTP though if its incapable of having more loco DLC without some re-work....which might happen some time.
     
  38. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Strange one that. The PCA tank dosent instantly strike as something for NTP though. Ahead of say, subbing the HEAs across to be hauled by a 47. So if the 31 had come in for NTP and not TVL. I would imagine different rolling stock. Or loco only and specific layers.
    I suppose it could be a case of what locos are available at what time, but if it was TVL I wanted to offer DLC for, It would be a Pacer, Sprinter or 56. Possibly with HAAs, the PCAs or Ballast wagons? If access to these wasnt possible and the 31 was being held up for NTP. I perhaps would have gone for a comprehensive 1989 class 47 pack (already got the research on North Star WSR) featuring BR big logo blue, Postal, Railfreight and Railfreight sub sector. Could park a Postal 47 up at Darlington as the case at Leeds on NTP.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  39. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I’m sure Muff can hack the 31 onto NTP.
     
  40. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it matters either way and I don't know what is trying to be proved here.

    There are pictures of blue class 31/1's at Thornaby depot as late as 1991 so for me it is fine. The only 80's refurbishments I was aware of were conversion of some 31/1's to 31/4's and some 31/4's to 31/5's so I don't know what difference there would be from a 1983 class 31/1 in blue to a 1989 one, I would be happy to be informed, however I don't think it will make any difference as far as I am concerned.
     
  41. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. However I think the point of the 31/1 picture was to ask if this 31 was planned for NTP then changed to TVL due to being unable to add layers on NTP at this time. This particular loco becomes 31438 featured in quite a few web images hauling BGAs and Transpenine coaches in the 80s. Its also in preservation in the BR Blue livery Epping railway. WSR gala visitor?
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  42. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Let me answer some of the questions that have been raised...

    Class 31 was always intended for TVL, but we have also wanted to run it on NTP in the future - which is why we chose BR Blue livery, so that it'd be flexible nicely for both.

    To be clear, the class 31 itself is not a memory hog, any more than any other loco, the issue is high peaks in memory usage generally since the heavy freight pack DLC was added - though again, at this point I don't know if that's just surfaced the issue or if it was the cause of it. There is an engineer looking into it and then we'll determine the next steps to take.

    Why no scenarios? Because it's not just 1 day per scenario (honestly, a 1 day scenario doesn't do much), and we don't have 5 people to make scenarios anyway :) Scenarios that come in our packs have to go through localisation as well, adding a couple of extra days and some extra work for other people outside the game dev team, as well as additional localisation QA and test. In short, you can't just chuck in 5 more scenarios like they're free. However, there are no technical reasons why such a thing couldn't be done - since within a scenario you can have much more control over memory usage by controlling what is used and when. The "free for all" substitution and layering of Service mode makes a worst-case pretty much all the time, as to why NTP is highlighting an issue suddenly where no other route is, that's what the key part of the investigation is, other routes like the German ones have 8 or more locos on them without issue.

    Did I miss any more questions? - let me know.

    Matt.
     
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  43. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Just one Matt.. could you please clear up that the PC guys are not held back because TSW is on consoles and you have to build routes to a console capable spec.
     
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  44. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Refurbished 31s had the bodyside strip and the buffer beam valance removed and the headcode box plated over. If they weren't being converted to 31/4 at the same time, they were generally turned-out in RF grey as per this pic of 31184 (again) and most had high intensity headlights fitted:

    [​IMG]31184 at Doncaster Works by Awwalker1, on Flickr
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  45. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I understand the logic, but how difficult would it be to make it a refurb 31 in RF grey for TVL and then backdate for NTP? I think there are a few on here that are longing for a break from BR and BR blue in particular. I think I could hear the sighs through my speakers.
     
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  46. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    I'm never going to be able to clear that one up, everywhere I turn someone is professing that consoles this, and consoles that :)

    We design and build routes and locos that we think we can do to work on both. Is that holding one back? I'll let you all privately debate that.

    Route length is NOT held back by consoles because we only load the tiles up around you anyway. Indeed the theoretical maximum route length for TSW on Console or PC ought to be significantly bigger than TS1. Route length is mostly hindered by the fact that it just simply takes longer to make a TSW route due to the extra detail required.

    Loco functionality and complexity is NOT held back by consoles, because the controller has access to everything that the keyboard and mouse warriors do.

    Gameplay functionality is NOT held back by consoles.

    Route scenery complexity is GUIDED by all platforms, and as we did with wuppertal - where we find something isn't working so well performance-wise (trees), we develop new techniques that allow us to solve that problem for everyone.

    Generally our solution for things like numbers of trains and lengths of trains is to have separate timetables - the core game allows us to run a completely different set of timetable movements on each individual platform, so if an average PC can do more than a console - then potentially we can do that and put more in each one, and indeed we did, GWE has a cut down timetable on Consoles compared to PC (though may not in future, general core optimisations since GWE seem to be making it so that the full PC timetable is working well on consoles now it seems). NEC used to, but no longer does since the Switcher update where we combined them together again. So again, consoles are not holding back the PC, we just author content to fit the platform.

    It's often ignored, but should be frequently remembered, that not everyone has a £2000 whizzo gaming PC - and things that don't run well on consoles often don't run well on low-mid range PC's - which a LOT of people have got.

    Where we find things that don't run well on lower end hardware (PC's included) our goal is to improve the core engine, optimise the content and make it so that everyone can take part in the improved experience rather than spending tons of extra time on super detailing that a small percentage of the audience can actually appreciate.

    Sand Patch Grade does not currently run on consoles not because it's oh-so-super-detailed but because it's been built comparatively inefficiently compared to how locos and routes are built these days. GWE we were able to bring in line and that's why it was the first, and Leipzig was the first one really built thinking about all platforms at the same time. We learned a lot making Sand Patch Grade, most of which was "how not to do it". It was something like 3-4 weeks work to rebuild the GP38-2 from SPG to make the Peninsula Corridor Union Pacific GP38-2 for example, these are not quick fixes.

    I'm sure that doesn't answer the question, but I can't think of anything else to say :)

    Matt.
     
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  47. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    As you're here Matt. Why are so few liveries included with loco DLCs? The Class 31 could wear BR blue, Rf Grey and Sector livery, all appropriate for the era TVL is set in. Same goes for the 37s in TVL, they could wear Rf and other sector liveries. All being property of BR I imagine there would be no issue with licensing and it's technically possible as demonstrated else where (Class 66 in EWS and DB red.) I know that the livery is small part of the locomotive development, so to add an extra livery or two seems like an easy way to add variety and value to your products. Cheers.
     
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  48. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Invariably a new livery means differences in the physical model - that grate was plated up, they re-riveted all of these in a new way, new headlights, something different in the cab, etc etc. Plus, for each additional livery you add more testing time, multiply up the fixing time etc. What the community is happy with from a freeware reskin, is not what they are happy with from official paid content - and rightly so.

    When I used to head up the "marketplace" team back in the early days of Marketplace, the original goal of that was to leverage the opportunity for reskins and create a lot of easy packs at a low cost that would bring out lots of livery variations. I don't think a single one managed to get to release without requiring modifications to the model and in more cases than enough they were substantial.

    Indeed, the phrase "Just a Reskin" is on the swear-jar.

    That said, I definitely want to find a way to get more livery variations out in some form.

    Matt.
     
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  49. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that reply Matt is very detailed and explains things very well.
     
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  50. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It is good to see matters put into context by a member of the team so thanks to Matt for that response.
     

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