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Tsw: Trans-pennine And Editor Post-stream Discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Juxen, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Rudolf

    Rudolf Active Member

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    I can recommend to view a bunch of tutorials on the Unreal Engine. There is a lot of scripting you can do without any programming in traditional programming languages, just connecting blocks and configuring them. Still not easy, but useful. I now watched 47 tutorials of this series:



    Maybe not enough to learn the ropes, but it shows a lot how the Unreal engine works and how easy it is to create a number of effects. I am not sure how hard it is to add this type of base stuff to TSW, but it looks like it opens a lot of possibilities. Some things that come into my mind:

    - A station master that is actually coming to your train and having contact
    - Set up nice fireworks or a big fire
    - Maybe even actually unloading or loading box cars
    ...

    I think even creating your own route will be much easier than it is now, though creating rolling stock is more complicated.

    Really looking forward to the editing tools.
     
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  2. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

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    Virtually every commercially operating railroad/railway in the world uses electric motors to operate the vast majority of switches. These switches are not locally operable by the driver or engineer - they are fundamentally locked in the last set position (or the defined 'safe' position) and cannot be forcibly moved even by the train itself due to how the switching mechanism works (though there are differing mechanisms that do allow trains to push through them to avoid damage/derailment when approached from the trailing side). They can only be operated remotely by the signalling/route control systems (which are often in a building miles from the actual switch) and is only set once a train has been routed and cleared to proceed. Essentially this is exactly what the Dispatcher does in TSW - it acts as the signaller and operates switches as is required for route setting and control as per real world operation - only manual switches can be operated by the driver/engineer (i.e. those with a lever frame).

    To answer your questions Sam:
    1. Whilst you can't build off of an existing route of ours, there's nothing stopping you from rebuilding an area (such as Reading) and then building along from that. Essentially all you're doing is creating a completely new route that simply uses the 3D assets from our route - something that we've already said we're aiming for.
    2. Yes, though in TSW you can both have trains stack up in portals to enter the world and also exit the world. In TS19, portals are only really meant for trains leaving the world, using them for trains entering the world is not really their purpose though I have known people to do it with varying levels of success.
    Hope this helps.

    Best, Steve
     
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  3. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    All the point motors on depots I've worked on have a manual method of working them, the same goes for points on the mainlines. The process to work them manually would be as follows:
    • Usually there's a flap which is secured by a padlock, once the padlock is removed and the flap opened it reveals the manual controls.
    • In the centre is a selector switch which you have to move to the 'manual' position from the default 'power' position.
    • Then there's a "gear stick" style switch to the left which must be moved either right and forward for the 'normal' or right and to the back for the 'reverse' position.
    • To the right is a slot with tube into which you insert the Point Pump Handle, it's basically a metal rod with rubber handle one end. You then move the handle back/forth to pump the mechasim moving the points into the required position.
    • You finally insert a scotch and apply a point clip to ensure it doesn't move.
    It would nice to have this implemented in TSW so we can fully explore the routes.
     
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  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    How long would it take to manually set points like this from Paddington to OOC?
     
  5. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Not long if you just click on the map to throw the points rather than manually change them all on foot. I don't think anyone would argue against at least have the option of throwing all the points on the route. My point (excuse the pun) was that using the excuse that powered points can't be thrown locally as the reason behind limiting the player's ability to explore the route doesn't make sense, as in reality they can in fact be thrown locally.
     
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  6. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    You can’t edit existing routes.
     
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  7. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    If that can be done then why not just answer the question?
    The answer is that it would be prohibitive and a waste of time...
     
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  8. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    They can’t.
     
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  9. LT586

    LT586 Active Member

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    UE4 is a can do engine, so I am stoked for the editor. NPCs should do more we should be seeing more intelligent NPCs that you find on Console etc PCs can do it just can they program it is the question? I heard Matt say the team get exasperated when asked to add more features.

    Give the community the editor, they'll produce something far beyond
     
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  10. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

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    Would be nice but that kind of control is not really standard operating practice for drivers in regular operating service. However, giving ultimate control to players to manage switches that are currently locked by the Dispatcher system is something that was always on our feature list. The missing part of the equation was actually a planned feature from the start that we haven't discussed with you yet - more on that at a later date.

    I think once you actually see all the missing pieces of the puzzle, you'll be able to see where we were going and the reasons behind why things are the way they are right now. Naturally, I'm not able to discuss those with you but I think it would make a lot of sense to everyone.

    However, all that aside, once you get into the Editor Tools, I think it will open up the routes in a way that means it will be less important overall but I still think it's a feature we all still want to see in TSW.

    Best, Steve
     
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  11. LT586

    LT586 Active Member

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    Thee majority of people playing these simulators are hardcore enthusiasts, the average gamer is just looking for graphical detail and 60FPS. Whatever features DTG are bringing I look forward to just as long as we the hardcore enthusiast see some more elements which reflect the real world, announcements on the train, guard checking tickets maybe, I dont know but maybe.

    Platform screens which work, or enabled so we can program them. Surely LED screens can be replicated and fonts can be designed, UE4 must be able to do what can be done from years ago
     
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  12. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Unreal Engine 4 is certainly possible of doing all this. In fact I downloaded a demo map for UE4 which displayed scrolling LED text beautifully without any issues.

    Unfortunately we cannot tell or know what is a priority for DTG so it’s a simple case of ‘it’ll come when we have enough time/if we think it is and important feature/priority’

    Until they can get more time/resources I think we’ll see pretty much the same lifeless station environments for new DLC’s for the foreseeable, which is a shame.
     
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  13. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Member

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    Well, thank you for that information, Steve, we will all have to wait until the official announcements come along as to where we go from here. I appreciate that you can't tell us any more at the moment.
     
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  14. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Member

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    Agree. Looks like everything is the same as it was in TS1 where Dovetail just covered the bare necessities, but it was up to 3rd party to truly innovate like Armstrong Powerhouse ect with safety system, destination displays, robust startup procedures ect. Hopefully Unreal Engine will unlock the doors for the true innovators once these tools come out.
     
  15. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Dovetail will be doing the destination displays when they get the chance.
     
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  16. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    To be fair it was never Dovetail who went into the details in TS1. They only did the barebones stuff whilst third party and the community did the far more in detail, in depth stuff. This was applicable to level of details both on the route itself as well the the trains, as well as sounds and physics.

    We all know DTG loves to recycle their already bad sounds for various different trains.

    A leopard never changes its spots and all that, I still think it is applicable to DTG this day. Unless something is specifically asked for or requested, we won’t get it and shouldn’t have our expectations set high.

    It’ll be the third party developers which really surprise us, who will come out with new, game changing features.

    Until then, we can pretty much expect see what we’re seeing today for future DLCs by DTG, which to put simply, is nothing amazing.
     
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  17. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Member

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    OK, but DTG would produce at least one new locomotive or some simple freight wagon, such as an Eaos. What are they doing? They sleep?
     
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  18. Nick_Brad

    Nick_Brad Member

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    Right now, they're working on the editor, something we've all asked for. The general consensus is that we don't want more dlc, until they can fix the issues that have plagued the current dlcs. At the current time, not many people are willing to pay for extra locos or wagons, until the editor is here and we can use them on whatever routes we like.
     
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  19. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Member

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    I see. In fact, not being able to use the trains where one believes best, or not being able to create a convoy according to one's taste is really an unforgivable lack.
     
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  20. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Nick_Brad do you know that to be true? I don’t doubt that they’re working on the editor but I’d guess not to the exclusion of everything else. If nothing else the production editor is months away; what they’re doing now is preparing for a beta release. Even if there’s a consensus (is there?) that more DLC isn’t wanted it would be most un-DTG like for them not to have a new route (or three) in the pipeline.

    As for extra locos and the like I thought that the Class 33 was quite well received. Isn’t that true?

    Bottom line this and other forums have had lots of things that there has been consensus on but it’s rare, if ever, that it’s diverted DTG from what they were focused on. There were lots of issues with TS1 DLCs that the forums wanted DTG to dedicate resources to fixing (even if it meant less new releases) but DTG ignored those requests. I’m not convinced, unless there’s some evidence, that they’ve changed course and seen the way of righteousness.
     
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  21. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Member

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    I would imagine that DTG staff are doing the editor upgrade and the new TSW team are creating DLC, such as the Class 45/47 and the DMU Class 101 in the Trans-Pennine release. Stephen Dark is the Gentleman behind the voice in the tutorials within the game, and I'm sure he and his colleagues are busy beavering away to develop more content for the community this year.
     
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  22. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Member

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    I also imagine and, I always hope, that the DTG Team works hard to fix the bugs, to develop new content, and for the editor. However, we are almost at the end of January, and the program seems to be mired inside the quicksand of a swamp.
     
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  23. PlatChap

    PlatChap Active Member

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    I can't help but agree with this. I've had my expectations reeled in for DTG releases and in some ways they have managed to pleasantly surprise me, like with NTP. I feel a lot of 3rd party content are going to be passion projects so I'm expecting really great things there.
     
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  24. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    For an engine which you can do virtually much anything you want to do, I feel like most routes are sub-standard and scenery placement and density could be a lot better.

    For example, on some routes, there’s barely any scenery away from the trackside and hills and mountains can look very plain ans basic, almost is if they are one texture.

    For DTG it’s get the route out by X date regardless of the state of the route and how it looks but for third party/free routes I think a lot of attention will be focused on the quality of the routes by taking advantage of this next gen engine.
     
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  25. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It’s due to the time constraints that they have. If they were given more time, the routes would probably be more detailed. There was much more time between WSR and RSN, and RSN is a very detailed route.
     
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  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    DTG had already said that they had three routes in development a while back, but you also have to consider that with each release they have a catalog of assets available, and improved methodologies to implement them across the systems they use.
    It's very much normal that some things improve over time whilst other things degrade as they try to find quicker ways of doing the same things
     
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  27. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    Not going to lie, as neutral as I am currently feeling about this title as a whole if they dropped an ES44AC or ET44C4 on me right now I'd buy one just to look at it in the intro screen.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
  28. Nick_Brad

    Nick_Brad Member

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    If they dropped a class 60 and TEAs into the game, i'd probably grab them as soon as I could, plus a set for a streamer I support, but as a rule, I think most people are looking for quality over quantity right now.

    I'm not sure what earned the downvote above, we know that they are working on the editor, so not sitting idle and I didn't claim this was to the exclusion of all else, merely stated that generally people would like improvements to quality before we get more dlc, which the comments on this forum support.

    I think the class 33 was generally well received as a quality loco etc, but a lot of comments focus on the fact it has limited use being tied to the WSR and didn't come with any additional rolling stock, like the US loco that was released for Sandpatch.

    As for DTG seeing the way of righteousness, only they can answer that one, we can hope, but I wouldn't advise anyone holding their breath at this stage.
     
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  29. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Member

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    Are people looking for quality over quantity?
    It seems to me that neither one nor the other arrives!
    Originally TSW was designed as an expanding program, or have the plans changed?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
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  30. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    I think that's where the commentary swirls around here...

    Disappointment =
    ( What people want the game to be) - Where it is.
    (What the game can realistically achieve)

    There are a lot of passionate, knowledgeable people in here who have been patiently waiting for this flower to blossom into something. The question remains as to why it hasn't: Did the soil start off sour or did it gradually turn?
     
  31. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Member

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    Possibly because most British flowers don't blossom in January.........
     
  32. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    Or 2018...
     
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  33. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Member

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    Even 2019 would seem a dry year ...
     
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  34. Juxen

    Juxen Member

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    I agree. It's been very quiet since the new year began. Are they still out for the holidays?
     
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  35. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Member

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    We hope that the return from the holidays employees have not found a lock at the door ...
    DTG becomes more mysterious every day ... mah!:(
    If it continues, I stop following TSW and I dedicate myself to another hobby.
     
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  36. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    No. They have been back for a while.
     
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  37. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Member

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    Well, it's not the usual DTG folks that is doing the development is it on TSW, it's another team with Adam Lucas as Senior Producer, so, unsure if they will do another development video for any new DLC add-ons, we'll probably just get the usual marketing blurb on their Facebook page if any Twitch streams are due, I can't see another route being announced for a few months.
     
  38. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    We are working on new TS19 and TSW content pretty much constantly. We do not talk about our releases until they are about to go live, for many reasons. But there is certainly nothing to worry about with regards to new content.
     
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  39. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Member

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    Listen dear friend.
    I just wanted to let you know that I will not be waiting forever.
     
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  40. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Content takes time to make.
     
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  41. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro you’re not wrong about content taking time to make, but again you’re being rather kind to DTG.

    If there is demand for more content, and this board seems to suggest there is, then DTG should be widening the bandwidth to make more content. I think they’ve said that they’re working on three routes at any one time. That’s not a law of nature, that’s driven by the number of people working in the effort. You get more content by applying more resources.

    Equally it’s generally agreed that third parties need an editor to start to contribute to making more content available. DTG are solely responsible for the scheduling of the editor release. If they’d prioritized making the editor available earlier then there would be more content coming online.

    What DTG aren’t very good at is managing expectations. TrainSim-Dmitri suggests above that they keep their cards pretty close to their chests; their prerogative. But if they were to open the curtain a little and say ‘our plans are to release about 6 new routes this year’ they wouldn’t be revealing trade secrets but they’d be managing expectations. In fact this forum is set up,in some ways NOT to manage expectations. Some days we probably get as many new content suggestions (some of one line) as the likely output of DTG in a year.

    Let’s say at present we’re getting one new Route every two months. You can argue whether it’s too much or too little. TrainSim-Dmitri could agree that is roughly correct, or could suggest that it might be a little less or even that they were ‘hoping’ to do a little better. No big commitment, no trade secrets released, just a little bit of expectation management.
     
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  42. Juxen

    Juxen Member

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    I think part of the expectations here comes from the host of recent releases; Ruhr-Sieg released in August of 2018. Long Island in late November. The Class 33 a week after. Manchester-Leeds released in the middle of December.

    When you see that three routes and a loco released (probably coincidentally) within a four-month period, you can kind of see where you'd think that that rate of progress would continue. But it's also probably coincidental that three routes (with three dev teams) all wrapped up at nearly the same time (just in time for the end of the tax season).
     
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  43. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It’s also important to note that it’s good to have longer periods between dlc releases, because it means that they are taking there time on them.
     
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  44. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    Hi Medellinexpat,
    First of all, I acknowledge your feedback regarding our openness (or lack of thereof) towards new releases. I am sure we could do a little bit more in terms of revealing our plans for the near future.

    Despite this, as I said, there are many reasons why we refrain from revealing our new content shortly before it's released. One of the reasons is that our schedule is prone to changes, especially when we are talking about partnering with 3rd party developers. There are also many other factors, from obtaining licenses for certain livery elements to fixing critical bugs, that affect our schedule. We have to take this into account when revealing new content.

    I think the last thing you would want is for us to announce new content and then delay it by two months for technical or other reasons. That will not make anyone happy in the community.

    I am not sure if simply saying that we are planning to have 6 releases this year will make a big difference to you. You can get this sort of data by looking at the rate of our previous releases. Besides, I cannot fully agree with you on.

    as we are also getting a lot of comments along the lines of 'Instead of making new content, you should be fixing bugs'. I would also like to point out that TSW was designed with long-term support in mind, similarly to TS1. That's why I think that we currently have a pretty good balance of quality and quantity, although any feedback is still very important for us. We do have plans for being more open and community-oriented starting from this year, so I appreciate your input.

    I do believe that more openness is necessary as the last thing we want is to appear 'mysterious' to the community. I am here to combat this, as I am on your side with regards to a lot of questions, but I would like to see things happening outside the forums as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
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  45. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Member

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    You could even close the discussion here so nothing comes out of nothing.
    This is the last time I waste my time here.
     
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  46. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    TrainSim-Dmitri I don’t disagree with you when you say that some on here suggest that resolving issues on existing releases or taking more time on new ones to avoid problems is more important that churning out new faulty ones.

    But slowing the rate of content release does hold dangers for DTG and TSW. One disadvantage that TSW has is that it’s older sibling competitor TS1 has a LOT of content. So, for example, if someone loves the Rivera line, TS1 is still the place to go. To increase migration to TSW more content is going to be key. Take the idea of six releases a year. Given the current levels of division that would add, over the next two years, four U.K., four German and four US routes. That doesn’t deal with requests from China, Australia, Canada or other European countries. So will that be enough new content to drive growth?

    I understand that issues may come up that might delay the release of a DLC but then again you can manage those things. Why even cut code until you have licensing issues resolved? Why have resource competition between bug fixing and new content - just set aside resources for bug fixing outside of the development teams. If third parties are missing their commitments tighten up the contracts and payment conditions to focus them on agreed timetables. In the end rejig the pipeline a DLC goes through to remove, to the extent possible, the uncertainty.
     
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  47. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    You don’t want rushed DLC, do you?
     
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  48. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to announce a release date, a 'coming soon' is adequate and would allow the community to give you feedback based on the media you publish as well as giving you the flexibility to move the release date forward/back. By doing this you'll get an idea of what features players would like to have in this DLC as well as information which would allow you to correct things; An example being the appearance of the Class 101 in the NTP DLC, it was highlighted by the community that front windows and destination board were wrong, but by the time the announcement had been made the DLC would already have been submitted to Steam.

    I understand there may be limitations imposed by the process of obtaining a licence to use a company's branding, but still, I doubt very much that the licence would only be granted just a couple of weeks before release. Companies may require you run any media past them before making it public, but they want their branding to be used in a successful product, so I'm sure they'd allow you to post WIP media if the situation was adequately explained to them.

    Right now, someone has £30 to spend on a new game, do they wait an unspecified period of time for an unknown TSW DLC, or do they spend their £30 on another game/DLC which is has already been announced/released? I'm excited for the Washington State DLC for American Truck Simulator, so that's where my cash will be going as I have no idea what the next TSW DLC is or when it's coming. With regards to ATS, check out SCS's blog, DTG could learn a lot from SCS.

    The bottom line is, announce what's coming up, get people excited, implement their feedback and create better DLCs based on the community's feeback.
     
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  49. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro I’m not sure where in my post I’m suggesting ‘rushed’ DLCs.

    You are making a guess about the reason that the DLCs have issues is that they’re ‘rushed’. It’s an oft repeated criticism of DTG that management push the teams into releasing content before it’s ready. However I’m not sure anyone has any hard evidence of the fact. It’s a simple conjecture to what may be a complex problem.

    There are many other reasons why we might be seeing DLCs released with issues. For example the issues may be with testing or the integration of fixes for discovered bugs back into the release. Rather than being rushed maybe the teams aren’t big enough or have some inexperience or key skills missing. Maybe the process around the QA before release isn’t working properly. Perhaps some aspects of the planning (included features) are too ambitious. Perhaps there’s turn over of staff that impacts the release. Maybe the development team gives the content to the testers too late jamming them into an issue. Perhaps the same people who do the coding do the testing and therefore don’t uncover their own errors. Maybe development team members keep being pulled off to work on other things. Who knows?

    In reality it’s probably a bit of everything but suggesting - at least in my experience - that if you just give everyone more time everything will be just fine rarely, if ever, works.
     
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  50. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    You made it sound like you wanted DLC more often. In order to have good quality content, it has to take time.
     
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