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Tsw2 Baseless Speculation Thread

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by matthewbguilford, Jun 10, 2020.

  1. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    What does this mean? I don’t use Steam, I have the PS4 Pro.
     
  2. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    I’m really liking the new HUD, but what is it telling us. I can’t wait for them to discuss it more. I like that it has a dark background too.
     
  3. Mkdog45

    Mkdog45 Well-Known Member

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    I like the new HUD a lot
     
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  4. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    I think most of the stuff on it is self-explanatory; but for new things added the indicator below the gradient on the right I presume will be the wheel slip indicator. All of the brake gauges have been shrunk down compared to TSW2020

    Personally I don't find it better or worse than the old one....its just 'OK'. I would have liked to see a rolling indicator of the upcoming track speed limits like in TS1. The way it currently is (and how it is going to be in TSW2); is that you only know of next single track speed change....if there are multiple changes in close proximity the HUD doesnt show that at all.
     
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  5. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    As I get older, I find myself less keen on incredibly small fonts.

    I use a 55 inch screen at reasonably close range, and I think that the four numbers on the left and the three at the bottom (in the new HUD) will be quite difficult to see.... and I have quite good eyesight.....! The icons above the numbers in the enclosed circles are completely impossible to make out - so why not lose them.... and use the space of the whole circle to have a larger font for the number instead....?

    It's not as bad as the fonts used in TS1 though....
     
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  6. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    I’m the same. Tiny text is very off putting and causes unnecessary eye strain. I’d rather the text/numbers etc be bigger.
     
  7. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    It certainly has a bit more of a cluttered look compared to the old HUD...overall the HUD may be slightly smaller than the old one due to the shrinkage of those brake gauges. We will hear more about it I'm sure closer to release, hopefully it can be customised (but that may be wishful thinking on my part)
     
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  8. Cuddy_Man

    Cuddy_Man New Member

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    It's quite nice.
     
  9. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Any thoughts on what the ? gauges are below ?

    [​IMG]
     
  10. WonterRail

    WonterRail Active Member

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    It was also mentioned in the q&a but the new German route will come with just 49 services involving both the ICE 3M & the Talent 2 but when MSB & RRO get added to Preserved collection they will add the following:
    • If you have just MSB, the service tally goes up to 110 with RE1 & Freight services added
    • If you have just RRO, the service tally goes up to 161 with S-Bahn and addition freight services involving the inter modal wagons & MRCE 185.5
    • ...and while i don't think it was mentioned, but i have done the maths on this one, if you have both MSB & RRO, the total number of services will be 222
    This is all when both MSB & RRO get added to preserved collection which will be sometime after release.
     
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  11. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’ll say what I think of that new HUD. It is awful. That’s without seeing anything change on it. If it appears the same size on the screen as in the stream then I’m not going to be able to read it. Also there is no need to use segmented display numbering when you have the choice not to, and in this case there is no need for simulating a segmented display, so it is just a bizarre design choice. I hope it’s not like that in the release.

    I also noticed that the menu had tiny writing in a bad font when the scenario planner was demonstrated. Totally unreadable. A backwards step from TSW. Hopefully that was just a dev build and not the menu that the players will see.

    Everything else in the stream was excellent news, including the revelation that preserved content will have services in the new routes, which was totally out of the blue. Not just the scenario planner but actual timetabled services. Wow.
     
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  12. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I prefer the simplicity of the TSW2020 HUD better sofar, but the TSW2 one ain't bad either. And I believe they said you can switch between the two, so it's going be nice to experiement with both and see which I end up with for the long run.

    I was really happy to hear this, though a bit bummed that the Ruhr Sieg Nord route doesn't add any services to it, as that's the only german route I have. Well maybe I will buy one of them later on if I feel like it. Still great news anyway.
     
  13. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    is tsw2 dlc
     
  14. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I think that the three circles (inside curved (brake pad) parentheses) on the bottom are parking brake (stick icon) and direct air (loco) brake application (engine icon) and train brake notch (loco plus carriage icon). I suspect that these will be lit up if on/applied - this will be useful with any sort of challenging grade with wheelslip, etc.

    I would very much prefer the gradient percentage to be in a larger font - this is critical information, but I like the idea of the short slope - which is generally much better than TS1 (although you will have to remember the history of the gradient with individually weighted wagons behind you, which you don't with TS1).

    I assume the number in the square box is an AFB or cruise control target speed. The double arrow next to it is the accelerometer, with a CoG symbol (quartered circle) in the middle - looks nice..... ;-)

    I have no idea what purpose the "camera" icon serves.... you can see what camera you are in depending on what camera you are in.....? It might also be a compass. But I would rather lose this.... and have a properly labelled map.

    I assume that a PZB layer, and a layer for direct mechanical drive gear (Classs 101)... will appear later, and that the Class 101 will be delayed a bit as a result.

    I am very relieved to see the speed limit marked as a floating red line on the speedo dial - that was a massive improvement over TS1 that has been retained.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
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  15. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    I think you could be right about the 3 I wasn't sure of at the bottom -- that makes perfect sense. The number in the square is the notch position...you see that working when Matt moves the AC4400 in the Bakerloo tunnel in today's Q&A

    There will also have to be some sort of provision for LZB/PZB, alerter etc They did say it will have some more tweaks before release...so maybe they are watching this and take your suggestions on board regarding the font sizes :)
     
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  16. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    For me the placement of oncoming speed changes and advance signal warnings should also be folded into the new HUD somehow.
    The whole concept of a hud is to grasp the essentials in a quick glance.
    Having to change your view to a different area of the screen defeats this object.
     
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  17. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    But is it upgraded DLC or just the standard DLC rereleased?
     
  18. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Yes - makes sense - the power notch is next to the accelerometer - that is good contextual design.

    Also - I just realised - that first circle at the bottom doesn't have a "parking brake" handle symbol.... (duh - I was thinking of cars...) - it's an electricity symbol - so it is probably application of electric brake or rheostatic/dynamic braking. So: Dynamic/Direct/Train brakes, for the cluster of three. I think I have convinced myself anyway... I guess it's all marked up for managing Sand Patch Grade..... ;-)

    I will miss the cylinder/reservoir/pipe needle pairs (although there are single needles on the left, which might work out better, when relying on the HUD (those needle pairs were sometimes a bit ropey to interpret in TSW - like on the Class 47....)..

    I really do hope (even if it is a forlorn hope) that they've fixed the distance to objective..... I have been putting more time into RSN with the DB BR 143.... and the whacky distance readout really knocks your timekeeping predictions and AFB management out the window as you approach Hagen..... which gets further away the closer you get to it.... ;-O
     
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  19. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    upgraded DLC
     
  20. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    I think the bottom left is for the dynamic brake, middle is the locomotive brake, and the right is the train brake.
    Even in this expanded view of the HUD, I can barely see Half the stuff on it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
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  21. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Me too.
     
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  22. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    IMHO the first one is the dynamic brake (transforms the energy generated by the movement of the train into magnetic energy that is applied to brake the train), and the second and third are what you said, independent brake and the service brake.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  23. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    very good tsw2 new hud
     
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  24. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    At least the TSW version does not show all features. If you have PZB or ATC turned on, it gives some additional information. Also in the TSW HUD you do not show the accelerator indicator, the cruise control setting and the gear setting. So, it is hard to say anything that makes sense. I also cannot judge readability well. The TSW one is quite good, but misses numeric brake settings. As I stated elsewhere, it is a missed opportunity to integrate next speed limit, next signal state and next instruction in the HUD. My feeling in general is that I would prefer a flatter structure, a bit like TS, but not as big as that one. We need it, but it also spoils the view.

    Luckily it just shows information, but does not have controls and it would be nice if we have quite a lot of control on what we can turn on or off.
     
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  25. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    It’s some time since I’ve posted on here. I left given amount of heat that I got in suggesting that TSW1 wasn’t going to get an editor. However I’d still like Dovetail to do well and for Train Simulation to remain healthy. My comment today is why, of all the dates to choose, the marketing department has chosen August 20th as the release date. On August 18th, in case they hadn’t noticed one of the biggest Sim releases in years is going to occur when Microsoft releases MSFS2020. Now while many rail simulator fans won’t care about a flight sim release (although my guess is that there’s a good crossover between the communities) Microsoft marketing dollars are going to drown out any message Dovetail might have on a new release. A week earlier, a couple of weeks later and they might have got some attention. But two days later?
     
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  26. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    That's a conversation that has been had inside the building, and while there is some crossover between flight and train simulators ultimately rail fans will tend to play the latter as the former tends not to include trains.

    Yes, some people will undoubtedly be drawn to the results of Microsoft's endeavours and that's going to happen no matter what we do.

    The date wasn't chosen by marketing, it's a company-wide decision that has been considered and scrutinised before being settled upon.
     
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  27. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    very good tsw2
     
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  28. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    But DTG Protaganist it’s not about the crossover. You are going to get drowned out by the MS Marketing machine. The fact that there’s a new Train Simulator out there is going to go missing other than for the cognoscenti on boards like this. My guess it that TSW2 is Dovetails last chance to get a successor product to the original Train Simulator franchise. You only get to launch a new product once. Do ever notice that people don’t tend to release movies on the same weekend as blockbusters like the Star Wars franchise?
     
  29. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    star Wars franchise?
     
  30. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    A few years ago I would have said that you were right, but DTG has an advantage nowadays. MSFS will not be on Steam (at least not for launch).
    I don't know if you follow the gaming news lately, but MS, EA, etc ... are starting to sell their games in Steam even when they have their own platforms. You can be sure that they wouldn't do it if they didn't see it would be an astronomical money loss. So don't underestimate the Steam platform.

    What MSFS has on its side is that the air simulation field has not seen any breakthru in a decade. The new MSFS is like lets say TSW1 to Railworks in the train simulation ecosystem.

    TBH, I think the best date for TSW2 would have been the original release date (Aug 6th) but it couldn't be.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  31. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Active Member

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    While this is a valid concern, I believe DTG have the hard data that gives them a clearer picture of just what percentage of their playerbase crosses over to flight simulators. They are probably informed enough to proceed with the set release date. There's also no ground on which to assume that people who will buy MSFS won't also buy TSW2. They are completely different afterall and those who can afford will probably buy both if they are interested in both aircraft and trains.

    On a personal note, MSFS promises fantastic scope and is sure to set a standard, but I personally have no interest in flight simulation, so it's clear where my preferences lie.
     
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  32. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    My guess is that you have judged it about right. But if the launches were taking place closer to Christmas (when funds become more relevant), then avoiding a clash with MS would probably be sensible. It's just a guess - I am not basing this on any data.

    Another point - DTG's model is based on sales of a back catalogue of DLC. So I don't think a surge at launch is normally that important to them. This might be slightly different this time though (just to contradict myself a bit), because TSW2 is the pre-requisite for their back catalogue... um... going forward... Again - just a guess - I have no idea if I am even in the right ballpark.
     
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  33. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    ms is flight simulators game tsw2 is train game
     
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  34. kylel2036

    kylel2036 Well-Known Member

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    What does this have too do with video games I don't think release dates are valid criticism unless they don't live up to it
     
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  35. bsrdj

    bsrdj New Member

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    going to get TSW2 and MSFS2020. getting new i9 pc built for them both:)
     
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  36. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    In case you hadn’t realised, MSTS won’t be launching on either Xbox or PS4 on 18 August so DTGs marketing won’t be ‘drowned out’ on either of those platforms. Added to that the small amount of crossover between flight simmers and train simmers and I think you’ll find your concern is misjudged.

    Good to have you back though Medellinexpat!
     
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  37. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    As the conversation is interesting...

    MS Flight will have far less impact on how well Train Sim World 2 performs than FIFA, Madden, Call of Duty or Cyberpunk. Even if you take PC in isolation, the allure of bright lights, pretty colours and overuse of the word "dude" that comes with smash-hit games is nothing something our players are immune to.

    You can tell a great deal about a game by which it is launched in.
     
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  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think even if you are interested in both genres you will be following both and will know about developments in both and probably looking to buy into both. You might prioritise one over the other and then purchase the other a few days/weeks/months down the line.

    I really don't see it will have much effect at all, certainly not long term.
     
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  39. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    If you’re interested in both and following them then the marketing timing does not matter, as you say, but a big part of marketing is getting the attention of those that didn’t know they were interested in these sims until the marketing pulls them in. Interestingly, it could work out that if the marketing for the flight sim gets people interested in sims for the first time and they look for other types of sim then TSW2 will be there waiting for them in all its glory. The timing might help out somewhat then. I don’t really know, just guessing really.
     
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  40. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes that is a good point too.

    I notice in many towns, for example, if an Estate Agent opens a branch on a particular street, within a fairly short time there are suddenly a couple more in the same street. Even though they are rivals they somehow, unintentionally help each other, I suppose. It could be a similar situation here, or maybe I am just talking nonsense!
     
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  41. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Some thoughts and responses

    1. Long term MSFS is likely more of an issue for TSW than it might be now. There’s a good chance that Microsoft haven’t gone to all this effort and expense just for a flight simulator. The thought is that they are in fact creating a virtual world for gaming that has application beyond flight simulation. So, although I don’t see MS getting back into rail simulation at some point them licensing the technology for other transportation simulation isn’t a wild thought.
    2. In terms of a cross over its true that not many flight simulation fans have rail simulation software. However, looked at it from the other way around I’d bet that quite a few rail simulation fans have other transportation simulation software.
    3. Many of the replies seem to take my original post that the concept is that purchases of MSFS will take business away from TSW2. That’s not really my point. Dovetail really, really need TSW2 to succeed. From a marketing point of view I think it’s a very tough sell. If you come on this forum you know that the principal reason there’s a TSW2 is that the engine needs to change because what’s in TSW1 doesn’t support all of the features that are needed to support (and were promised) for the game. TSW2 will be better but it’s not easy, marketing to the average punter, to convince them that there’s a whole lot of difference between TSW1 and TSW2. Videos might show some visual improvement, but it’s not dramatic. Will TSW1 continue to be marketed? If it is then there’s some argument that for the casual user it’s the better buy. It has a back catalogue of routes if nothing else. If those TSW1 routes are usable in TSW2 will they be marketed as TSW2 add ones? So, if TSW2 is going to get off to a good start then the marketing needs to be really well executed as it’s going to be difficult convincing people what is new that prompts the purchase. None of the routes in the package is a headliner either. GWE would have brought a lot of UK rail fans to TSW1. The Bakerloo line is interesting, but is not quite as iconic as Brunei’s billiard table. Scheduling a release just on top of a major industry player launching a huge new game doesn’t help. It may not be fatal, but why take any risk with what’s at stake?
    4. As for some of the other comments about ‘why do I care’ MSFS is suggested as being a program that will kill off all of the other flightsim rivals. I don’t agree with that. However the old, ex Microsoft legacy program FSX is definitely at risk and third party developers have deserted that en masse. Still don’t care? Well you should do because if you look on Steam at the FSX Stream edition you’ll see that the publisher is none other than our friends at DTG. DTG need a success and hopefully TSW2 will turn things around. But there can be no more strategic mistakes. None.
     
  42. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think the flight sim market is a lot bigger than the train sim market though.

    Personally I would be surprised if they entered the train sim market again. They have already been there once well almost twice with train sims, MSTS was a success I think but it was at a time where there was very little choice, there was Trainz but that was quite different. They released it, did one small upgrade if I recall and that was it. The second one they abandoned not long before release if I recall. The market is getting rather crowded now I would imagine.

    The Flight Sim series they seemed to develop and update more frequently.
     
  43. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Precisely my point about how you look at the crossover between the two hobbies. Train Simulation is more of a niche and is much smaller than Flight Simulation. The concept is that MSFS will grow FS even more. I’m cautious on that, but Train Simulation also has potential.
    Actually Microsoft had deserted the FS market back in about 2012. Their follow onto FSX which was called Flight was a complete disaster. Them coming back with a MSFS was a big surprise. Dovetail of course (after acquiring the FSX rights for home usage) also had a big fail in the flight simulation market with FSW.
    One of the issues Train Simulation (or at least TSW) has to contend with is route length. By the end of TSxxxx you could buy route packages to travel the complete length of the GWR. TSW1 brought us Brighton and the suburbs. Flight simulation allows you to fly the world with (according to MS) with photo realistic scenery. Personally I wonder if the TSxxxx philosophy was more correct. Less detail, but longer route length.
    Flight Simulation has also managed to get its community to put up big bucks for detailed and professional add ons something that Train Simulation still struggles to do.
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, to be honest I have never really been into flight simulators, so wouldn't take so much notice, I hadn't realised they had abandoned it as early as that.

    I suppose flight simulator only needs to have the detail near the airports? I certainly would like to see longer routes in TSW, but I would imagine Microsoft would have the same issue in a modern simulator in trying to put the detail in to the standards now expected, unless they had a "engine" which was much quicker to use. I know very little about these things to be honest.

    It will certainly be interesting to see how the new flight sim is received.
     
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  45. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Actually that’s not true about just needing the detail at the airports. It’s true if you’re flying big jets because above a certain height you loose detail. However if you fly small planes, often you are at altitudes where detail is important. There’s a whole industry supporting packages with that detail. For example there’s a company called Orbx who produce as one of their products coverage of the whole U.K. Currently that’s data you store on disk (so 200 GB packages aren’t unknown) whereas the new MSFS product streams that data to you. That concept of streaming the surrounding scenery is the big leap. Taking that back to Train Simulation remember all of the memory issues that used to exist in TS1 With long routes? Also might development of longer route packages be quicker if you’ve already got the basic scenery available? Now there are issues with that photo realistic scenery when viewed from certain angles close to the ground but simulation is moving quickly with real time weather, seasons etc and in some cases fitting the ‘there’s my house’ request.
    MSFS surprised everyone and whether it works for large scale usage is going to be interesting. But it’s part of the issue for TSW2 about whether, for transport simulation, it’s really going to be state of the art when it’s released.
     
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  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Thank you that is interesting detail. I can see how that would work for a flight sim, I wonder if it could be adapted for a train sim? If you wanted to model for example the Welsh Border GWR branches circa 1950 it might not be suitable I guess.

    If I recall the abandoned MSTS2 was going to have all the tracks in place where scenery could be added if you wanted to model a particular route, I am sure that is correct, I will have to have look on the old forums on UKTS. I don't know how it would have worked if you wanted to model a 1950's period route as I assume they would have been up to date track layouts.
     
  47. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Yes historical would be difficult. Terrain generally stays consistent and I presume their could be some replacement of buildings with those that were time relevant. But if you wanted to do a long contemporary Chinese High Speed route (and there’s likely market for that) Technology is moving in the right direction.
     
  48. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I don't worry about MSFS and a possible future MS train sim.
    I'll buy both as and when.

    Like many simmers I have TSW, TS, several varieties of Trainz. MS flight sim, X plane, DCS, Il2 , Falcon etc..
    All bring something different to the table and we simmers are the ones who benefit.
     
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  49. WonterRail

    WonterRail Active Member

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  50. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    MSFS is a huge improvement over previous simulators, but keep in mind they are showcasing the best areas. They show you the hand made airports, not the ones auto-generated using Bing maps. They show you the large cities like New York, or San Francisco where they have detailed map data. If you go somewhere a bit far from the big cities you won't get the same kind of detail or 3d effects. Remember, satellites only take pics from the sky. You can see the roofs, but not the sides of the buildings, etc ... all of that is added later (to Bing, and from there to MSFS).

    Don't get me wrong, even the not so detailed areas in the new MSFS will look much better than what you can find in any other FS by default today. But don't think that everything will look as good as New York.

    Now, how could this help a rail simulator. First, when creating a route you would "only" need to "remake" the things that are close to rail track. For example, in SPG you wouldn't need to make the mountains and trees far away. The game engine does it for you using satellite data. It would also tell you where the tracks and stations, buildings, etc are, but you would still need to improve them by hand. It takes work, but less than doing it all yourself from scratch.

    PS: Btw, MS is happy to have partners in MSFS that make airports, planes, and what not. If MS made a rail simulator I bet they would do the same thing and let anyone add engines, routes, etc ... If MS provided the base tech for signals, schedulers, security systems, etc.. that kind of stuff, and left route creation to other studios I bet we would get lots of good quality content. It would not be the end of DTG. DTG would also make money adding their own routes and engines to that simulator.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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