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Tsw2 New Images...

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Trooper117, Jun 26, 2020.

  1. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Does it matter what makes the sky look better? The fact is the sky will look better. Whether the devs changed which sky system they use, or it’s the way the engine deals with light, or that Bob Ross came in and painted every happy little cloud himself, the sky will be different, not the same, new, better.
     
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  2. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it does matter.

    I keep reading on these threads that people seem to believe TSW2 is a completely new dawn, a new game. The marketing blurb is promising things that won’t be there, implying that they are without actually stating so. With the talk of steam, multiplayer and so on, too many people seem to have seen those words and believe that’s what they’re getting in TSW2. Dynamic skies is just another thing on that list. I’ll admit than when I first read it I read ‘dynamic weather’; seeing or hearing what you want to, rather than what’s written.

    Reading between the lines what you’re getting on release day is two new routes for TSW world, some basic upgrades to SPG, implementation of adhesion physics finally, something that allows you to make your own scenario (but only with the included trains) and an upgrade to the engine (which is welcome, don’t get me wrong). What you’re not getting is anything new. The lighting (other than inherent in the engine), shadow draw distance, lack of life, lack of dynamic weather or events and all the other blah with TSW that we’ve gone over a million times will all be the same. Except now, the hundreds of pounds you’ve spent on DLC in good faith that things would improve has been written off and consigned to history by DTG. You won’t even be able to use all your ‘old’ content in the game on release day. If that doesn’t tell you that this is a half baked and rushed idea then nothing will.

    The game, to all intents and purposes, is the same. In previous years you’ve received all these QoL updates for free but now you’re being asked to stump up for them. DTG are selling people the future all over again, because what you’re actually getting in terms of upgrades is small fry. I’ve absolutely no doubt we’ll see them do exactly the same when they switch to UE5.

    So yeah, little things like that do matter, because whilst the Dev team are clearly making an effort to be more open and honest, the marketing department are up to the same old tricks. Sadly, again, people are clearly falling for it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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  3. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Is that such a big issue for you, whether people are actually looking forward to the game and can’t wait to play it? I’m happy we’re ditching TSW 2020, you could tell it was limiting us. As for my dlc on TSW 2020, I’ve not touched it since TSW 2 was announced. I’m trying to save myself for when it launches on the 6th August, I may go back and play some TSW 2020 routes now and again but right now if I never played them again I don’t think I’d miss them.
     
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  4. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    No doubt you’ll be saying the same thing about TSW2 when TSW3 launches. I’m glad you’re happy to write off everything you’ve previously spent money on, but there are many of us that are pretty hacked off about it. Many of us who bought DLC thinking we were building a collection so that when the editor was released we would be able to create scenarios and routes in a similar way to TS1.

    That aside, you’re neatly making my point for me in saying we’re writing off TSW2020 for TSW2. There is no such thing as TSW2020. Train Sim World is Train Sim World, it’s always been the same game. The ‘2020‘ branding was just that, branding. A marketing re-release with a couple of routes and some QoL upgrades. Sound familiar?

    I’m really not sure how else to say it, TSW2 is the same game as TSW2020 and all the iterations of it before that. The only difference is that this time you’re being asked to pay for the game to get the QoL upgrades that have traditionally been free.

    You’re a marketing mans wet dream.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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  5. _Crash_

    _Crash_ Member

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    Yes it's the same game, just updated engine, I think most people know that.

    Bottom line is you get 2 new routes and CSX and the accompanying trains for 25 notes.
     
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  6. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Looks vaguely interesting. Only Bakerloo Line appeals to me but even then not that much. Maybe for the above ground section and if it includes some engineering trains. Never understood the desire for underground routes. Let's hope they've sorted the tunnel problems (thinking Standedge graphics). Might pick it up in a sale...after watching a few positive review videos...maybe.
     
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  7. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Why all the vitriol?

    If you think it's a scam, walk away.
    They made promises they hoped to fullfill and couldn't.
    They're not the first nor will be the last.

    I still play TSW and even bought a DLC this morning in the sale.
    I loved the editor in TS and really miss it in TSW. The workshop added so much to the enjoyment.
    Even have the Railworks DVD somewhere, but the graphics are uughh!

    Definitely will buy the new game although non of the three routes are of particular interest.
    Who knows I might really like them, and all for a paltry price.
     
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  8. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    If you were referring to me, it’s not vitriol. I don’t think it’s a scam. I do think DTG’s marketing team sometimes blur the lines, but then so do many of others. It’s what they do.

    I’m simply trying to temper expectations of people who are clearly awaiting something they’re not going to get, and who obviously don’t understand DTG’s way of working. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with the way they do things, but clearly many people simply don’t understand it. You still see people now worrying that their content for TS2017 won’t work with TS2018 which might overwrite TS2020 and so on. The same applies to TSW.

    A lot of people seem to somehow think that TSW2 is a new game, in the same way FIFA might change from one year to another; updated graphics, new techniques, new features. Well, it isn’t. It’s the same game, with a couple of updates and some new routes. There’s nothing wrong with that, as long as people understand what they’re getting for their money
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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  9. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    This is what everyone needs to learn - TSW (aka TSW2) is not TS1. It is a completely different sales model. DTG should probably stop using phrases such as "build your collection" - each route in TSW is fundamentally stand-alone.... even the loco DLCs (the worst rip-off being the Class 52 locked-down in self-isolation on WSR) are stand-alone, by default.

    This is broadly right - the annual release is mostly a marketing tool to attract new players with prices that are only sky-high, as opposed to in orbit..... However, TSW2 (or TSW2021...) is slightly different, as it includes more than just a collection of previously released DLC with one new DLC (just about.... it has two/three new routes).

    This is an issue that could be partially fixed, with some clarity regarding TSW2, by DTG answering the following question:

    Q. Do you need to buy the 6th August 2020 release of TSW2 in order to use any DLC that is made available afterwards.?

    If the answer is "no", but you are prepared to pay £25 for a future route, and you don't have to buy the three launch routes for £25, then that would go some way towards addressing the feeling that you are "paying for the game again", as the focus will be on the DLC.

    If the answer is "yes", and you do not want any of the three launch routes.... then the next DLC that you might have bought will suddenly appear to have a price tag of £50...... (or €60 or $60.....)...... And if the decision to buy is in anyway marginal, then the sale will be lost.
     
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  10. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I would only ever buy a product for what it actually contains and knowing what the available accessories are. I bought TSW on the basis that it contained what it contained in the bundle and knowing that there was some other DLC available for it and that more DLC would be released. I’ve never bought a route expecting that a certain train might be in it one day, or bought a train thinking that one day I might be able to use it on a route that wasn’t already stated it would work on. I’ve bought everything for what it actually contains. I’ll buy TSW2 on the same basis. I know exactly what I’m getting.

    People who bought TSW right at the start, saw that the early promises of an editor and multiplayer etc. weren’t fulfilled but continued buying DLC still only on the basis that the editor and multiplayer would come one day are as much to blame for their current disappointment as DTG are.

    Don’t buy the promises, buy the product.
     
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  11. sinnere

    sinnere Member

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    You're exactly the type of consumer I'd want if I were running a business that doesn't fully deliver. :D
     
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  12. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate what you’re both saying, but again I disagree.

    Given the way DTG marketed TSW from the very start (and by including the beta in the purchase of TS2017) it was made abundantly clear that they felt the TS1 engine was reaching the end of its life and TSW was a fresh start. The model, however, would be very similar. Everything that has happened since has backed up that notion until they announced TSW2 and finally came clean about there never being a publicly available TS1 style editor, effectively consigned all the DLC purchased prior to its release to the dustbin and decided to start afresh. Again.

    The marketing blurb is the same, the MO is the same, the promises are the same, the company is the same. I get what you’re saying about buying a product not a promise, but where there is such a strong precedent I don’t think it’s unreasonable that people had made that leap.
     
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  13. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    For anyone expecting full, 3D-styled cloud effects, I wouldn’t get your hopes up.

    I believe it’ll look how it does now, but with some extra layers. So the same, flat, 2D looking milky skies. Just with more ‘variation’.
     
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  14. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly what I've been thinking and I suspect that this is the case. Happy to be proved wrong.
     
  15. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    ps stujoy, I should add I totally agree with re buying the product not a promise. I just feel in this instance, the literal years of precedent led me (at least) to feel TSW was going to work along the same lines as TS.

    I also totally agree with the point above. Having spent hundreds of pounds on TSW, should I wish to keep going with it I have no option but to buy TSW2 (or should we say TSW2021) because without it, going forward, you’re stuffed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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  16. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s clear that a lot of people were given that impression, after TS being well established and the same company making what they said was going to be an improvement, most people would. I can’t say what I would have made of it all if I’d been a long time user of TS and bought into TSW early.

    I came to TSW2020 with only prior experience of Trainz and not knowing anything of the past history of DTG, until joining the forum. After a couple of months of reading the forum posts and hearing ‘no news on the editor’ in live streams, I got the impression that it just wasn’t coming but so many people were still eager for it and expecting that it would come. I was left wondering why some people were still confident it would happen but it was easy for me because I was never invested in it. I doubt I would have still had any hope after six months at the most but can’t say that for sure.

    It’s also a lot easier for me to accept that these things still aren’t coming in TSW2.
     
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  17. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Yeah - I think that they need to clarify the situation, ASAP. Much of the market for TSW is probably aligned to "just/mostly German", or "just/mostly British" or "just/mostly North American", and with a potential price tag of £50 for one desired route, they are in danger of losing a large chunk of those markets (especially at initial pricing).

    I personally think that they should have rolled-out TSW2 as a free update or shell for TSW plus TSW2.... and explained that the new features (like Livery Editor, Scenario Planner, adhesion, etc...) only applied to later routes/locos..... although that's still not an easy message (and there would have been similar complaints).

    We will just have to wait and see if they make the 6th August 2020 release of TSW2 a pre-requisite for all future DLC.... but only DTG will know for sure what that does to future DLC sales..... Maybe we will see TSW2 rapidly fall off in price (to say £10), in order to enable those future DLC sales.
     
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  18. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    In some ways I fell for the same blurb with Flight Sim World (FSW)... it was going to be the next big thing in flight simulation and I bought it hook line and sinker! Look how that ended up, wasted my money :mad:
    Still... it is what it is. You will go for it or you won't. I think with the announcement of TSW2 and the reaction from many, the developers are sitting down and realising that they are going to have to mitigate that reaction somehow... it certainly didn't go as smooth as they had hoped.
    Anyway, to get back roughly on track... for me, I don't give a hoot much about the sky... I don't sit there in the cab moaning about the look of it... I just concentrate on driving the bloody train. ;)
     
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  19. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    This is the sky system used in TSW2.
     
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  20. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    That’s misleading to say as TSW 2 will not take advantage of all these effects. It’ll no doubt be a pretty watered down version of this.
     
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  21. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Don’t buy it, it really is that simple. That’s the beauty in freedom of choice.
     
  22. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Lol no, the clouds look completely different in these preview screenshots compared to TSW's clouds. Again, it's hard to judge the whole new sky system from just these (as these are all light clouds), but it looks promising. It might be a let down at the end, who knows, but at the end it's a new sky system different from the TSW one.

    In the Q&A they said they had made no changes to the graphics OTHER THAN the dynamic skies. An engine update by itself will not give you new skies.
     
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  23. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    If you won’t (or can’t) understand the point I’m making then I give up. I’m not going to repeat it again.
     
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  24. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    They answered this on the Q&A on their website: ‘All Add-Ons released after the launch of Train Sim World 2 work in Train Sim World 2 only’
     
  25. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    I see the point you’re making, I don’t want (or need) you to repeat yourself. I’m exercising my freedom of choice, if you don’t like my choice that’s fine but it’s not an issue for me.
     
  26. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    No - not quite. What you have quoted says that new TSW2 DLCs (2020+) will not work with TSW (2018-20).

    The question I am asking is whether new single DLCs released after the first TSW2 launch product (comprising x3 DLC routes) will require the launch product to work..... or if they will be functional as standalone. That would give people the option of skipping Bakerloo, Koln-Aachen and CSX: HH Redux.... and buying the next DLC that they actually like, thereby saving £25.... or not (effectively) paying £50 for it.

    Every single TSW DLC is really a completely new game with its own settings. They all sit under a very thin umbrella UI application, that displays links to the DLCs and some minimal data about progress with those DLCs. There might also be some substantial widgets that stand apart, like the application that runs the mapping... and various bits the drive the HUD (in-game).

    I think it is easily possible for DTG to release the "base game" (the UI) for TSW2 with future DLCs, for those people that did not want to buy Bakerloo, Koln-Aachen and CSX: HH Redux. The question is whether or not they will do this - it would make a lot of PC players that have CSX already (and only play North American routes).... much happier - as one example cohort of customers.
     
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  27. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The base game for TSW2 will contain more stuff than the base for TSW because it’s got the scenario planner and livery creator included on top of the basic UI. That’s not going to be included in every DLC, just like the TSW UI wasn’t included in every DLC, so you will have to buy the first release, unless you wait a year for the next base bundle.
     
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  28. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    I do understand where you are coming from but I don’t see them doing that. All DLC from GWE onwards required a form of TSW base game to work, whether that was ‘TSW: CSX Heavy Haul’ or after it was rebranded to simply ‘TSW’. I don’t see that changing with TSW2. I remember some of the TS Classic stuff like ‘South London Network’ working without purchasing the TS base game but that was a long time ago.

    What I imagine will happen is that by Christmas TSW2 will be 60% off in the usual Steam sale making it much more appealing to those who aren’t fussed about the base game routes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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  29. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I think that this (your description above) is almost exactly what will happen. But between August and December there will be a lot of annoyed ex-customers that don't want to "buy the game again", especially if it contains routes that they don't care about.
     
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  30. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I dunno, I don't see them giving it more than 25% off. They barely go over 25% off for newer releases, only DLCs more than one year old get 50-60% sometimes.
     
  31. railway12

    railway12 Active Member

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    To make it short the photos look alright, but photos containing bug fixes would be much better. Especially if you start moving on to a new game, it makes the old game look like a mess, which it is. First Fixing, then upgrading, only after these steps TSW2 should come in mind. With looking after "old routes and locos", not dismissing them. And after that you can think of making proper content and doing it afterwards.
     
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  32. PlatChap

    PlatChap Well-Known Member

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    The screenshots look fine. It looks exactly the same as TSW2020 because that's essentially what it is. I couldn't have said it better than hightower did.

    The trains look fantastic. The ICE has never looked better imo but the modeling of the trains themselves has never been the real issue with the game for me anyways. I look forward to see what else they have to share in the future.
     
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  33. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    One thing that will drive people over the edge will be if TSW2 is released and the routes are full of the traditional bugs and broken features. A ‘new start‘ but the same old problems.

    We can already see from the screenshots there are issues;

    - the Bakerloo shot shows the platform is completely empty.
    - The tube cab equipment has blank screens indicating no functionality (surprise surprise)
    - The lighting on the German shot looks exactly the same as TSW, the train on the left (apologies, I can’t remember it’s Class) is lit independently of the surrounding environment.
    - We know the audio has had no changes
    - We know the shadow draw distance is the same.
    - We know there have been no graphical improvements.
    - We know not all the abandoned content will be available from day 1, if ever.

    There are suggestions on Discord that the dev team are under a massive amount of stress trying to get this in sufficient shape to release in August. One thing is for sure, if it’s not ready they won’t do the sensible thing and delay, they will release it broken. Very sadly, a leopard doesn’t change its spots.

    Before TSW2 was announced I saw a video on YouTube regarding DTG’s ‘step forward’ with their fishing franchise. They have effectively done the same thing, charging for the next iteration/update and calling it a new game. The difference being that it looks like that has been a plan for a long time and to be fair, it does look like an entirely new game with way more features and improvements. I reckon the powers that be decided they could do the same with TSW because as we’ve seen, mention a ‘new game’ and people are practically wetting themselves with excitement. In TSW’s case, however, it looks less like a long term plan and more an off-the-cuff decision.

    I can’t find the stream I watched but this gives you an idea...

    https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/fishing-sim-world/articles/article/the-catch-carp-and-coarse
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  34. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    The issue with the "new game" approach is this.... what exactly is the proposition....? Is it:

    1. TS1 style: We are making a game, and every time you buy expensive DLC, you can be sure that the DLC will always work as we develop the game, so you can build your own largely interoperable collection. You are investing in the DLC, and that is respected, so it is for the long term.
    2. Common style: We are making a game which will rapidly become obsolete by a substantially improved new version of the game. We will make DLC for the game over the course of a year or two, but since that DLC will be extremely limited in use and will become obsolete, we will keep DLC prices very low.
    3. TSW style: We are making a game, and every time you buy expensive DLC you can be sure that they will rapidly become obsolete. You have been investing in the DLC thinking we would do something like TSW1... but your investment is not respected, and will be lost. We will keep the prices high, as if the DLC had a long term use, and we will do this for as long as possible, until people realise what we are doing. When we intoduce a new version of the game, it will have a very slightly different engine, but your experience will be exactly the same as before.

    The TSW to TSW2 approach is the worst of both worlds for the customer, and the best of both worlds (in the very short term) for DTG.

    People have to look at TSW and TSW2 as not being like TS1. There is no collection to build and use flexibly across routes. Maybe they will get there in a number of years.... maybe TSW v.6 will be like TS1... But at the moment, they can't even get new DLC on TSW to work correctly with the route that it was specifically designed for (like the Class 31 Cement Circle scenario being broken after introducing the Class 20 on TVL....).
     
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  35. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    It’s funny you mention this as I was just about to post about the very same thing, but I disagree with your analysis. I actually think there is a very good chance that TSW2 will be delayed. Just read between the lines. At the beginning of last week DTG Protagonist let slip that they were finalising a video for release later in the week. That never happened and we got 6 screenshots instead (no blame attached to Sam for this. He already explained he was only relaying what he had been told). Nevertheless what this indicates to me is that if DTG cannot show off any footage a mere 6 weeks before release then this suggests to me that it’s very likely the game is not in good shape and still requires a significant amount of work. It’ll be interesting to see what they give us in this weeks update.

    Therefore it doesn’t surprise me when you say the Devs are feeling the heat getting the game ready for August. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have to put it back.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  36. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    If it’s not ready I hope to God they do for everyone’s sake, least of all theirs!

    Seriously. Do not release the game unless it works!
     
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  37. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    But how on Earth are they supposed to know if it will work before they release it....? Hang on..... ......you are not suggesting.... ...

    No...... Surely not.....? That's just crazy-talk.....!!!!! You are not suggesting that they actually test TSW2 before they release it for sale........? Seriously.......? Do you think that they will actually test it to see if it works - actually spend some time on it.... look at quality issues, etc.....?
     
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  38. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Silly me, I got carried away.

    As I said, a leopard doesn’t change its spots.

    Rumour has it, however, that DTG do actually have a beta testing team. They keep getting thanked in the credits but what for, nobody knows!

    Perhaps it’s merely to point how out how much flak is incoming after release.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  39. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Of course they have a QA team. I know a few people in the beta team.
     
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  40. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    I guess that testing it with a team of people with a few different set ups is one thing... but on release when it goes out to thousands with all that entails is another.
    There will be problems regardless...
     
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  41. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Can you ask them if they work under an ISO 9000 compliant framework....? Has the quality management system been assessed?

    NB: If they answer "What?" then that means "No".
     
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  42. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I don’t doubt they do. Didn’t stop them releasing East Coast Way with a completely broken signalling & AWS system though did it? Their existence is rather pointless if LOVE-ups that size slip through the net! That one took months to fix.

    What will be the major ball drop of TSW2?
     
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  43. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    Keep your fingers crossed for mini balls not major balls being dropped! :o
     
  44. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I suspect "beta team" is DTG code for "customers" and the business model is to get the "beta team" to pay DTG to test their product and report the faults. The miracle is that the model seems to work.
     
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  45. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's us.
     
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  46. ASRGT

    ASRGT Well-Known Member

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    Can I ask where this was confirmed that this is been used ? considering the UDS plugin has support for UE4 4.8 + and been around for some time now i am surprised there only just now using it. If so great as its a decent plugin just interested on where it was mentioned.

    To be fair like it means anything anyway, my time with a certified company (hint its referred to as big blue) that has ISO 9001, ISO 14001, ISO 50001 and ISO 45001 certificates it meant exactly sweet fa to the end results of the total utter trash they delivered on a daily basis.
    All it did do was cost them a crap ton of money in audit time , costs of renewals and added layers of bureaucracy to a company all ready hamstrung by its own blue tape. No offence just don't understand how ISO 9000 equates to better QA in software as in my experience it simply does not.
     
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  47. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Yeah... and in any case it would be over-kill for an operation the size of DTG to get certification, let alone accreditation (since they now have to manage the inputs from the Other Office in Stirling) ..... but actually just implementing the core principles of quality management.... and having some awareness that QA exists as a concept, as an idea that can work.... as something to start thinking about doing..... could be useful to DTG.

    I think it would really help DTG if they did some QA.
     
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  48. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    How do you know?
    Have you seen it?
    You are posting assumptions on what you believe you have been told. Until we see actual gameplay, as opposed to screenshots. Only the developers actually know what we are getting as opposed to what the marketing department want us to think we are getting.
     
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  49. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    The article says Dynamic Skies. That video is showing Dynamic skies...
     
  50. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't guarantee it will be the same in TSW as well. We can't know for sure.
     
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