Tsw2 Vr Support Release Date.

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by chieflongshin, Jan 3, 2021.

  1. boebsie

    boebsie New Member

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    Seriously? This reminds me a little bit of the mobile phone. If you would ask people in the past if they need a mobile phone they all said no.
    VR will be without a doubt universally the standard in gaming. It's the difference between looking at a relatively small screen and actually being there, you do the math.

    As for being shut off from the world, most VR glasses already have cameras, altho not so good yet. So you press a button and can see the world. And in gaming, the whole point is partly being shut off from the world and being immersed.....
    It's just a matter of time when you have good hand tracking with tactile feedback for the mass market and you can actually touch all the buttons in your cockpit. Now you are telling me people will still use their mouse and keyboard and look at a 2d screen, instead of being there and actually touching all the bells and whistles? That doesn't make sense.

    I understand dovetails choice based on what the community wants and maybe financial reasons, but from a purely technological perspective and curiosity, it is a missed oppurtinity. But again they have good reasons not to invest at the moment.

    Eventually, VR will come to the masses, devs better prepare and get experience. Devs like rockstar and Valve are already making specific VR titles because they know it's the future.
     
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  2. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    VR for TSW would definitely be one of the best possible features as it so immensely improves the immersion.... but only if you own a VR headset. Not many people have one so games aren't developed for it and because VR games are rare people don't invest in a headset (as it's not exactly cheap). So it didn't end up on the bottom of the list because it's an unwanted feature but because not many would be able to use it.
    If TSW had VR I'd definitely save up for a headset as it's quite a game-changer and I still hope that it will arrive in the far future.

    I'm pretty sure it's bound to be the norm for gaming anyway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
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  3. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I've always thought Augmented Reality a slightly better prospect in the long term, as people have said VR can be very alienating and the beauty of AR is you get all the things described without that.

    So for example you can see the virtual cab infront of you and press the buttons with touch feedback while still being able to see your family or what is happening elsewhere.

    It is somewhere in the middle and still gets you more than a flat screen without getting completely enveloped. It is interesting they now put cameras on the outside of headsets for the same reason, but there you have to choose between the two, AR has some of each.
     
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  4. boebsie

    boebsie New Member

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    Yeah AR is really interesting, also for professional training purposes. The future AR/VR developments are really amazing.
     
  5. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Oculus has just released hand tracking so you can see and touch things without controllers. Very new and I’ve not used it much but it’s interesting.

    It has a pass through function also so you can see what’s happening around you. They’re definitely pushing the tech.
     
  6. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I saw the stream where Sam said VR is too 'Niche', I don't buy it myself it seems like just another excuse to ignore it. I was disappointed with the GWE route, where we in effect only got half of it and they try to say we will make longer routes if they are interesting. Unless of course DTG are saying Reading to Bristol and then South Wales isn't interesting?

    Isn't owning a train sim 'Niche' as well? Some people mentioned about having eye problems and wearing glasses. I am older and have a brain condition and one of the side effects is double vision which is a real pain. I do have glasses with Prisms in which helps a lot but the lenses are thicker. I have used various head sets, WMR, Quest, PS and the view in VR actually helps, without glasses I still see overlapping images but if I'm not tired I can really enjoy it, played beatsaber a while back an got to hard level, lol.

    I could see VR being a big plus for TSW 2 especially for Steam Trains if they ever come, it would be good for the Tube as well and when you are on foot. For me I would just like it for viewing the game and using the Rail driver to control the train. Realistically though it would never happen, how would DTG make money out of it? IMO they would want to charge for it. I think they will sell more copies of the game but knowing DTG they would want to make profit on it straight away.

    I also can see the argument for fixing other stuff first and TBH I fall into this category as well. There are just so many more problems with the other routes that need addressing first before VR. Getting the Raildriver fixed up and available for other routes would be nice, fixing the frame stutter for the people affected is another one but it would be nice, perhaps a third party could do it in the near future?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
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  7. martinoc

    martinoc New Member

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    I never saw the survey myself but I'm only an occasional player. I totally understand the arguments for and against VR being on the development roadmap. I would argue that VR is no longer niche (maybe its niche as a subset of people who use a train sim?) - it's particularly popular in flight simulation and as others have said it's hard to go back to the flat screen after enjoying the immersion of VR. I know nothing about software development so I don't know what the options are/what is feasible but prior to the release of Flight Sim 2020 I was using FSX with a 3rd party add on called Flyinside.

    If the developer worked with a 3rd party VR could be sold as an add on (Flyinside was £30 and well worth it).

    I would be willing to pay into a Kickstarter for this (either to the developer or a partnering 3rd party). This could be a way to guarantee the return on the required additional effort.

    VR is much less costly these days and these forums show there is a will. If you haven't tried VR on a really good sim it's hard to get your head around how much better it is and therefore it has little chance of scoring highly on a poll of existing users.

    I would say I was an early of VR adopter 3 to 4 years ago - but sales of headsets like the Quest 2 have brought it much closer to the masses.

    Maybe some food for thought?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
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  8. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I’ve used it on two sim games now, new to it this year.

    Flight sim 2020

    My first experience in this was trying the landing challenges. I took a small Cessna and being able to look around the cockpit was incredible. Watching all the gauges whirl into life, looking into the back of the plane over my shoulder etc. Flying was a joy, I had a little motion sickness initially as I got used to it but you soon learn what motions cause it and get ready. It’s a beautiful eye opener looking out the window, experiencing the rain on the cockpit glass and watching the rain clouds and light blooms. I then tried a Boeing 747 and suddenly I am immersed in a huge flight deck able to read every switch. This great behemoth feels more alive than a flat screen ever portrays and far bigger. I’m in it after all. This blew my mind.

    Assetto Corsa

    As a petrol head this was my primary reason for buying vr. Couple of stand outs here. Trying old formula 1 cars from the 70s I could sit inside the cockpit looking at my virtual malnourished legs and see the gear shift happen, the Rev counter springing to life. I peeked behind me and could see the carburettors, the engine rocking as I revved it.

    As anyone who played assetto corsa knows tracks and cars are nigh on unlimited in scope. Since vr I’ve sat in ferraris, formula trucks, top fuel dragsters, the back to the future delorean and drift cars. These are the immersive things that I may never do in real life and I find now I tend to dip i into a lap or two rather than races like a kid walking round a sweet shop trying everything until I’m sick. The races are frantic and yes as we all know you need a good rig to run max settings (I see slowdown and drop in quality on a 10900 2080ti and 32gb of ram) but I can see past that for the experience.

    Half life Alyx

    My first walk into this universe and my god. Walking round my office and this being replicated in the real world is crazy. Picking up markers and writing on windows, smashing bottles, using both hands to reload guns , panicking mid fire fight are all insane. I’ve hit the wall with my hand, broke a £90 oculus cable when it wrapped round me like a serpent as I was in a sewer fighting off face huggers. It’s truly incredible peeking around a corner with your body, gun drawn , only to be drawn into a firefight as the hairs on your legs spring into action.


    Now this leads me onto train sim......

    My vision for this was to be sat in a class 66, looking out the windows, seeing the scope of the world properly, pulling levers, pushing buttons, battling aws.
    Imagine looking out on sand patch as you work out what locomotive needs its air brakes changing to get its 4000t load moving. Running the German services through the beautiful countryside trying to spot when to start the Pzb dance as the line changes.

    There are so many opportunities here for all to enjoy something spectacular if implemented correctly. I know it would be hard to implement the walking mechanics into the game but there must be a way.



    Personally I always thought VR was a fad and would die a death but having tried it I, sure those that have used it would unanimously agree that it doesn’t matter how many times people tell your about it you will never understand how amazing it is until you see if through your own eyes.

    I now feel like a VR preacher but thank you to everyone that’s replied here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
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  9. martinoc

    martinoc New Member

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    This post got me playing about with Virtual Desktop and Opentrack again to get a fake VR experience going. Using a huge curved screen in VR works quite well but the head tracking isn't quite working in opentrack. I used my 3d scanner as an Intel realsense camera to track my head moves (facial recognition) and mapped them to the mouse and that worked amazingly. The only problem is that the facial recognition doesn't work when you then put a headset over your face. Interesting experiment but not a solution.
     
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  10. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

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    I'm a proud VR preacher. DTG have a very rigid business model. Route, Route, Route, new title, Route Route Route new title (TSWX, TS20XX etc.)
    Given that TSW has been out for 3 years, we haven't had any actual 'extensions/,major upgrades' to routes. What you get is what you get. If you have 3 or 4 routes in Germany that could be connected together, but aren't so be it. If a traffic layer is added then that's a bonus. Not having a dig, this kind of stuff was never promised so fair play to them.

    developing VR would be work without profit for the most part. I would love it if DTG stop developing routes and rolling stock and just concentrated on core tech and left the routes and RS to 2nd/3rd party developers who have a obsessive passion for the exact product they're producing and are happy to spend 12 - 18 developing it. It would give DTG the time required to develop other features and work mostly as an integrator to 3rd party products.

    TSW desperately needs competition to draw out these kind of innovative features. TSW is lovely, but I never feel like you have enough 'access' to the game. Timetable and layering was terrific and certainly put the 'world' into TS World. VR would certainly go someway to delivering a immersive world.

    Going further in VR preaching and sticking up for the underdog feature (that is VR); Us VR die hard's don't scour the forums finding topics suggesting features that we don't want. I find it funny when there is a VR thread hopelessly trying convince the unbelievers and someone will pipe up "I don't want VR because blind/get travel sick/Lancastrian/don't like gravy etc. etc.' Alright then, don't buy a head set. I don't come on to your thread and pee on your chips when your asking for a variant of a EMU which is already in the game but not the one with the right number of riviets.

    One day, they'll be a computer in every village.

    peace out.
     
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  11. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s not really a for or against VR thread but the naysayers like myself are more concerned with DTG devoting time and resources into adding VR support for the benefit of the twelve people who would use it (exaggeration intended). That’s the issue. It becomes a VR for TSW, yes or no argument based on the relatively small numbers of users. The personal reasons for not using/liking/wanting VR just add to the story, as do the vivid descriptions of why VR is the best thing ever from those fans who are saying it should be supported. They want it purely for themselves because they have VR equipment. No amount of saying how much you like it is going to convince people that it should be supported in TSW.
     
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  12. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Hypothetical question: What % of TSW2 players own a Raildriver controller? My guess it isn't alot and esp so considering it is PC only.

    I think adding VR support (which is a niche segment like the Raildriver is); is mostly down to how much DTG want it in the game themselves rather than the resources required....as we are now seeing RD support.

    If they want it bad enough they'll find a way to do it (whether it comes in TSW2 or TSW10 remains to be seen).
     
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  13. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    The Raildriver analogy is a fair one. I also don't know how many RD users there are. The support for RD goes back several years with DTG and TS20XX. In addition, RD is supported by pretty much every other train simulator, so it would not be smart to ignore it with TSW2. I have the impression that the RD beta is a bit of kite flying and, if it proves successful, support for other external hardware will follow. VR, I'm sure, will be in that mix, so I don't think VR fans will have to wait too long for support. At my age, I don't think it's for me, but those who do want it have a valid case.
     
  14. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Raildrivers a valid point. I personally have zero interest in buying a big plastic peripheral for my desk but I think it’s incredible, looks very interesting and I’m pleased it’s in the game for the people that play it. I am however happy looking bonkers in a headset with a steering wheel set up .

    That said I wonder what a VR survey result would look like if they showed a demo of the game running with in some sort of VR. In the same way raildriver, a phone etc is a tangible end result you can see I’d wonder how different a VR one would be.

    I for one would take a second look at VR and Raildriver working in tandem. I’m only one person of many though.
     
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  15. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Get a Raildriver and you can push and pull real knobs and turn real buttons :). Seriously, I can understand why you would like VR and if I could use it without throwing up I probably would too. However, I think adding VR to a game isn't too likely to work, if we take TSW2 for example it has a very limited field of view (the worst in any train simulator where you are the driver rather than the train IMHO - check our RUN8 for those who think otherwise) and this would severely limit your ability to engage in a VR world. Now that said, the underlyin Unreal Engine does support VR so it might be possible to engineer a different version of the game dedicated to VR but as others have said this would have to be economically viable.

    Paul
     
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  16. martinoc

    martinoc New Member

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    I genuinely think a Kickstarter campaign would be a great way to do VR with minimal risk to all sides. I suppose the developer would need to understand how much work is involve and cost it up. Like others, I agree thats it's likely to be the norm for all Sims in future.
     
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  17. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

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    That's a great point. DTG have said all along they want absolute parity with consoles, however the inclusion of Rail Driver for PC is inconsistent with this aim. Admittedly configuring inputs might be a lot easier than developing VR.

    When voting for features in surveys, it's not always clear precisely what you are actually voting for (stick with).
    E.g Multiplayer. Do I want want multiplier? Yes of course. But not any multiplayer. What constitutes as multiplayer is analogues to the ideal length of string. Do you want a fully integrated system where you can play as signaler, driver, shunter, guard with dedicated and detailed control panels accurately portrayed to each individual route - that's the multiplayer.

    However equally, multiplayer could also constitute all manner of drivel. If the feature hasn't been fully defined, it's hard to know what it is your voting for. Back to VR.

    How many people voting on it have tried it?
    How many people are putting it at the bottom of 'wants' haven't tried it?
    How many people understand what it actually is and what it isn't?

    I put Multiplayer at the bottom of my player Survey, just to give some perspective. MP in my opinion wouldn't give any higher level of immersion unless it was done in a very comprehensive fashion and became almost core to the game it's self, not just a half hearted feature. Can you see DTG doing this for free? If I knew what was on the table, MP could even have been 2nd... Right after VR ;)

    Rock and roll on the dole.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
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  18. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    I would go out on a limb and say there are more TSW2 players who own a VR headset than own a Raildriver controller (Simply because VR headsets can be used across multiple games whereas the RD is limited to a handful of Train Sims). That being true, it is more economically viable to add VR support than RD support (If they were to say charge for it in a new iteration of TSW)

    Due to console parity though, they would probably want to get it working with PSVR in tandem (and if MS were to release a VR solution for their consoles; on that as well)...so it is considerably more work which is why we haven't seen it yet.
     
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  19. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    For something that was low on agenda it’s prompted a lot of discussion
     
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  20. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    It is certainly possible. I don't know where RD scored in the surveys.

    RD works with most train sims - either directly like it does with TSW2, RUN8, World of Subways 2 and 3 or indirectly through an external program like it works with nearly all other simulators.
    I have seen a guy who built a setup to use RD to fly planes in Flight Simulator :).

    We've got a Vive Cosmos headset here that's how I know what happens to me when I use it. High end headsets like the professional one that Microsoft make for industry training don't make me sick but they're also $25K and are not supported by games.

    Keep the discussion going or better yet get one for TrainSim-Matt as a present to boost his enthusiasm :)

    Paul
     
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  21. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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  22. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

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    Certainly encouraging news. Lets hope it's on DTG's radar.
     
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  23. BigPebble

    BigPebble New Member

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    I get that DTG sees VR as a niche market, but it won't be for much longer and you can either lead or follow. I personally find the game more difficult to enjoy because of the lack of VR immersion. FS 2020, X-Plane, and DCS have it and if you try it once you will only NOT use VR when you are not interested in a full experience like while watching TV.
     
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  24. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    VR is a pretty niche market everwhere EXCEPT within simulators. Out of all game types, sims are the one where VR has gotten the most traction and adoption, to the point that developing a driving or flight game for PC without VR support has become a disadvantage. The only reason this doesn't apply to train sims yet, IMO, is because there is little competition and only derail valley, which isn't really much of a sim, has done it.
     
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  25. RedBandit#9000

    RedBandit#9000 Member

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    Imagine you open up TSW10 (or whatever the damn next version will be) and you set up the whole layout of a 465/9 on your desk, now put on a VR headset combined with the game and sit in your chair and boom, you are driving a train. Hopefully, this happens one day.
     
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  26. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I'm a huge fan of VR. I don't play many games now that aren't VR except TSW of course. For me, the immersion of being completely consumed by the experience is one of the key things that draws me to it. Additionally then, the presence of the motion tracked controllers is another huge win, and a VR game which leverages these well (Lone Echo, and Stormlands, I'm looking at you) is an utterly absorbing experience - I have found myself think "hmm, im a bit hungry, maybe its lunchtime" only to find it's 3am... Only the once, though, I got in too much trouble with the family, so I set an alarm now :)

    That said - train simulations are a niche. VR is a niche. The minute you combine those, you have a niche within a niche and that's tiny.

    I am absolutely *not* surprised that player feedback (which came from a huge number of people) placed VR at the bottom of the pile. I'm disappointed by that, but I'm not surprised in the slightest. There are just too many other things to do that will benefit the whole audience - and I don't mean just PC vs Console, I mean those who want VR vs those who want "anything".

    I've seen Raildriver mentioned as being a "well... that's a bit inconsistent isnt it?" - well, not really... a) it's a dedicated bit of hardware specifically for this genre of game and is supported by every other game in the genre. It's also relatively straight forward to implement it, whereas VR really isn't. It also introduces no extra load on your PC, where as VR majorly increases the load to where the game needs to be smarter about how it cuts scenes back to keep FPS up - and great FPS is not just important on VR, it's absolutely crucial. You really want to be running 45-60fps when IN VR, which means that outside of it, you need to be pulling 70-90fps really - so there's a degree of tuning and setting up needed to find the right set of settings to allow the game to hit those levels WITHOUT affecting the experience of those who don't want VR and want to keep their beautiful settings thank-you-very-much.

    "But... Derail Valley!!" - I hear you cry. It's great, I love it, I play it too (I play all Train games, just to be clear, this is my hobby and personal interest not just my career :) ) - it has a great VR experience and I love how it's been done. Check out it's player numbers though and then go talk to general gamers who play it and you'll find that most of them are playing it in pancake mode, NOT in VR. I have numerous friends on Discord who play it and not a single one who plays it in VR.

    For those that think it's trivial to implement VR in UE4, and just this is just an excuse for not doing it... all I can say is, it's not just a case of "turning VR on". There is a command which enables it, but then it all needs tuning, movement mechanics need adding, motion controller tracking and interfacing needs implementing, all the UI overlays need entirely re-thinking to work in a VR environment as do general menus and so forth. It's far from trivial.

    For my own personal wishes I hope that in due course VR will come to Train Sim World, but I would rather that we deliver updates and improvements that the majority want first. This is what surveys are for, so make sure you've signed up for mailing lists so that when notices go out you don't miss them, and then make sure you fill them in.

    Matt.
     
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  27. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I can see where Matt is coming from and introducing VR is far from a 'walk in the park'. I do think some of the changes would help the move to VR, such as using a controller the mapping needed for the VR controllers is easier or I would think it is easier.

    There is no doubt in my mind I think VR would be a big plus for DTG as imo you would attract new customers who would not have bothered in it's standard form. But I do understand that things need to be fixed in the main game before you even think about it and one thing you said gives me hope, in that you said implementing RailDriver is relatively straightforward, is there any news on fixes? Preserved routes?
     
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  28. Coastway trainspotter

    Coastway trainspotter Well-Known Member

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  29. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I think that's good context Matt. How about we meet halfway and TSW implement TrackIR which even TS2021 has had for years. :-D
     
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  30. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I know, I'm the one who added it :)

    TrackIR is on the list, it will be got to at some point.
     
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  31. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I feel like Matts fighting an internal “would love vr” vs “commercial viability” battle.

    I’m secretly hoping at some point vr wins in DTG and with an audience uptake. Keep up the good work sir 1A38C190-421A-4E35-848D-8C487B90401F.jpeg disclaimer, it’s not me and I wish I could grow such a beard
     
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  32. smoothchat

    smoothchat New Member

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    IMHO, VR is kinda like a dishwasher. You don't find the need for one, until you have one, and then can't imagine being without it.

    VR was virtually (excuse the pun) number one on the wishlist for the new MS flight simulator, and they delivered with great excitement from the user community. With the relatively accessible Quest2 in terms of price and quality, VR is within reach of more and more people, and is quickly losing it's "geeky" status, and once used, often finds people unwilling to return to a flat screen.

    For those VR sceptics, I say, find a friend with a headset and ask him to show you "Derail Valley" on steam. Once you are able to walk around the cab as you shunt cars about (no switching cameras, just lean out the window), you might see the potential for DTG sims.

    So it goes without saying that I would welcome the addition of VR support, and at 65, I couldn't be accused of being a techno geek, (even though I am ;-)
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
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  33. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    That’s a really valid point smoothchat

    I went with the quest 2. Takes some juice to run it but I happily take a hit in flight sim on my frame rate just to experience it. VR games have consumed my play time in last few months and I’m already thinking what can I upgrade on pc and keeping an eye quest 3.

    £300 (potentially £400 with quest cable) isn’t cheap to everyone but by lord is it a game changer.

    I need to investigate derail
     
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  34. hypospray

    hypospray Member

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    Its exactly like Matt already pointed put. VR is a very small niche within a niche. On top of that it won't apply to consoles. I honestly don't see how this would ever pay out for the investment of additional developing VR support.
     
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  35. Coastway trainspotter

    Coastway trainspotter Well-Known Member

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    I made a YouTube video of a way that is quick and affordable - you might like it but might not
     
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  36. Coastway trainspotter

    Coastway trainspotter Well-Known Member

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    It is only on Xbox tho
     
  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Playstation has vr as well which sony developed which is cool. Not everybody owns vr and not everybody owns raildriver so it's just a case if dtg wants to make vr or not. Yes raildriver may be easier to implement but that is a niche product as well. So perhaps vr support will come in the future for those who want it
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
  38. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

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    Isn't every route DTG produce a Niche within a Niche?

    I'm adding more fuel here!
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Train simulation is a niche product overall. It's not as popular as flight sims or truck sims
     
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  40. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I may have to disagree. 1.3million steam VR users whilst in the scope of overall pc gamers may be small but it’s far from it on,y being 50k users.

    https://www.roadtovr.com/analysis-monthly-connected-vr-headsets-on-steam-record-high/

    5 millions psvr headsets sold before we even factor in the more powerful consoles and generations so I’m not sure how it won’t apply to consoles unless you’re an Xbox user??

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/987693/psvr-unit-sales/

    I saw another thread about trackir being implemented. I would imagine that’s because it’s easier than vr but not likely to be more than the 6.3million units vr has.

    I agree it’s a niche within a niche but it’s still a huge and evidenced growing market. VR is a niche market most of the time (not always) to people who haven’t used it and to a developer that has to make a lot of changes and marketing to remain commercially viable which is understandable.

    That said for a niche market it’s generated some dialect.
     
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  41. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Is VR available on the ever elusive PS5?
     
  42. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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  43. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Taking the PS4 as an example, 5 million units isn't bad. We have no idea how many are used once the novelty wears off - it'll be a lot lower than that I guarantee it. That's out of 115 million PS4's. It's a 4% uptake, that's not high at all.

    Now, imagine Train sim interest scales equally (we have no evidence to say whether it would index higher or lower so let's split the difference) - there's going to be a small percentage of that 115 million PS4 owners that play TSW (very small). Take that same very small percentage, and make it the same percentage now of 5 million instead of 115 million.

    Make that same calculation with the PC market. Estimates i've seen put the PC gamer count around 1.5 billion. Looking at a few sources, the estimated sales in 2019 were around 2.2 million units in total. For 2020 that rises to 68 million - which demonstrates some really impressive growth. Let's pretend all those are PC headsets (a good number will pc the PS4 but we don't know how many in 2020 so let's just ignore it and err on the side that makes the numbers bigger). 68 million headsets, out of 1.5 billion gamers. Interestingly, it's around 4% as well, hot damn. Of course if it's just 1.3 million on steam, let's say 2.6 million to bring in Oculus, that 4% becomes just 0.17%.

    So, it seems, guesstimate your PC or PS4 gaming audience for a game, cut it down to either 4% or 0.17% depending on your preference and you guesstimate your VR audience for a game.

    There's lots of room for errors in this, e.g. VR enthusiasts will probably own multiple headsets as they upgrade (even i've got 3 but I only use 1). Newbies might try it and not get on with it - i'm sure it happens more than we might like to think.

    That is what a niche within a niche is.

    It's very easy to get swept away in the magic of "millions!" but you need to ground yourself in the bigger picture.

    End of last year, Half Life Alyx, which is probably the biggest selling VR game of all time (second, perhaps, to Beat Saber but not by much), passed 2 million sales. Half Life 2 sold 12 million, Half Life 1 sold 9 million. Garry's Mod - 18 million.

    2 million sales of a VR exclusive game is actually quite impressive, but this is for an absolute blockbuster release that is widely considered the must-have game to own if you have a VR headset - but these are still the kinds of numbers that mean if you want to put a VR game out you need it to be *broad* interest, not niche. Volumes are not there to support niches yet.

    They'll come, i'm completely convinced of that. But they're not there yet.

    Matt.
     
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  44. hypospray

    hypospray Member

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    VR is not mainstream ready yet for at least a couple more years, and it problably never will get a wide acceptance within gamers, given the current state of it's technical development ( pricing , clunky VR goggles .. and so on... plays into this as well ).
    The porn industry trying push vR and other physical attachments for years ... with barely any success.

    Right now I can only see a potential value for train sims in system like the Tobii Eye tracker, or TrackIR - but not as full vR Experience.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  45. smoothchat

    smoothchat New Member

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    I wonder if VorpX could support it, if only with existing keyboard/Raildriver support (and no need to touch the mouse interface).

    It's not on their list.

    They might consider TWS2 to be too niche for their solution.

    Rather ironic really!
     
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  46. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

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    I've had it working with Vorpex. Never again!

    If they manage to code a propper mod for it, then I'd be happy to give it another go.
     
  47. AVeryFatElf

    AVeryFatElf New Member

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    I definitely have to echo what others have said or touched on, i realise looking at the cold hard data makes it not look like a viable direction but you've also gotta surely look at the market trends for affordability in VR which is getting lower and lower each year and there must be a trend of people picking up the likes of Quest 2 headsets etc. Anyways, DTG should stay ahead of the game and try to create the reason people buy a VR headset. Sure train sims are a bit of a niche but so was Flight simulator for a long time and now people use it to either use properly or mess about in.
     
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  48. Kazick

    Kazick Member

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    Just looking at the base numbers, some rough back of the napkin math, I give VR an estimated 550,000 user's on steam. That not counting all the non steam users since they are also a huger part of the market.
    In a Road to VR article from April of this year, they showed the PSVR sales from 2017 to January 2020. From just 1 million units sold by April of 2017 to just over 5 million by Jan 2020. That same graph shows a much steeper estimated growth of sale over the same span of time, not time frame, for the Quest 2. From Q1 of this year already past the estimated 2 million mark, with Q2 on track to be just under 3 million units sold.

    ( https://www.roadtovr.com/quest-2-unit-sales-estimate-psvr-unit-sales/ )

    Hel, even Facebook/Oculs is like "Look the Quest 2 has out sold all over Oculs headsets combined."

    Yes the argument can be made that the number of people who have VR and have TSW is low. And that would be valid. Counter argument is that you shouldn't look at adding VR support only to cater to the people who already own TSW. But add VR support for the whole who own VR and not TSW. Yes it would benefit the people who have both TSW and VR, and yes it wouldn't bring anything to the people who own TSW but don't own VR. But it would very likely interest people who do have VR and want more simulator experience's.

    And I think I have said this before, but it doesn't have to be full motion controller support. I've played Derail Valley and the motion controls felt lacking. Let me have my view in VR but still drive my train with my Xbox controller, or if it ever get fully implemented my Raildriver.
     
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  49. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I imagine Kazick since you want to use your controller or Raildriver that you might be thinking of AR rather than VR so you can still see the controller or would you envisage the controller appearing in game and you use your VR hands on the VR version of the real life controller that are guiding your real hands to the real controller?

    Its an interesting thing, if there was VR you wouldn't actually need the physical controllers because you could just (at least in theory) use the train controls.

    Paul
     
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  50. Kazick

    Kazick Member

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    No thats not AR, thats still VR. I picture it working much like using VR in flight sims or racing sims where you have the VR headset to look around, but still have a HOTAS/Yoke or wheel to control your vehicle.

    Its hard to see in this video, but I am using VR to look around my plane and the carrier deck, but I have my hands on my HOTAS to control the plane.


    Its true that I cant see it. But much like most people don't need to look at their hand when driving a real car because you know where your wheel is and you know where your hands are in relation to your body. If I was playing a train sim and using my Raildriver I know the layout of it that I could easily control my train with out looking at the Raildriver. And the same is true if I was using an Xbox controller. I've played iRacing in VR and I have my wheel in game lined up with my controller wheel. And the same for my H shifter. So when I am looking at them in game, I am facing them. I know with a Raildirver this isn't an easy thing to do, since the layout of a locomotive is different between each make and model. But its still a works.

    As I test I loaded up another train sim, then using another program put that view in VR. It wasn't a proper VR experience by a long shot. But I was able to at least see what I was doing in game in my VR. Using my Raildriver I was then able to still move the train with out having to peak though the headset. This was due to the fact that I know the layout of the Raildriver enough that I can run the controls with out looking, but also because I had it placed in a spot where muscle memory would remember it. If I had more time tonight, I'd make a video showing what I am talking about.
     
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