Upcoming German Route Speculation With Border Crossing

There's only one NS 1500 left and that's in a museum; and emulating the Dutch rail network from back when they were active, would mean building a lot of old trains like the MAT64 and MAT54. I don't think DTG is up for that for a first route in a new country.

The NS1600 is currently only ran by third party operators as freight locos. The NS1700 is only still running because the new German ICE-Ls were delayed. The only units left (I think about four of them? Correct me if I'm wrong) are held together with duct tape and tie wraps - heck, the graffiti on the locos must be part of the structural integrity by now.

The Vectron (NS BR193) however, could be an option. They sometimes run on that route with the Amsterdam - Berlin IC when the NS1700 break down once again (although generally used for the NightJet services).

Dutchy here too.

The problem with NS, at least with all the routes listed so far, is that DTG would have to build completely new trains. NS only uses a couple "off the shelve" trains - most trains on those routes are either VIRM(m) or Koploper, which would have to built from scratch. The NS trains that are common in other parts of Europe (BR186, Flirt and SLT with a bit of imagination) don't run near the German border crossings.

For the TSW Marseille route, they didn't bother with the "non LGV" 25kV catenary either - they simply used the LGV catenary for the whole route. In reality, the TGVs switch from 1500VDC to 25kV to 25kV LGV on that route.

The Flirts might be possible, but would have to built from scratch (they're quite different to the ones included with the Swiss S-bahn route). But I'm afraid licensing will get in the way, as the BR1429's you're referring too are actually ET25s (BR2429) and run by VIAS (who currently isn’t a licensing partner for DTG) and not DB.

Also, for Zevenaar - Arnhem, a license deal with ARRIVA would have to be made even if they choose not to include the ARRIVA regional trains in the game (as all the stations have the ARRIVA signs on them).
For Arnhem - Utrecht you'd again need VIRM(m) and at least SNG to make a varied driving experience.

Any electrified Dutch route set after 1996 that doesn’t have VIRM(m)s on them, is unrealistic

For freight, remember that freight trains are diverted onto the Betuwelijn just after the border crossing. So freight trains would be unrealistic (besides, there currently aren’t any electric freight locos in the game that can run in the Netherlands, so DTG would have to introduce the BR186 or BR189).

 

Thanks for the information and licensing issue for Hollandstrecke Duisburg/Bochum Oberhausen Emmerich am Rhein Zevenaar Arnhem Utrecht. Regarding DB Baureihe 189 the come in two versions regular buffers and Chains and C-Akv kupplung sides have yellow warning triangles

 

That is country-to-country, and DTG would surely market it as such.
They make a huge point about CCL/EDN being Scottish, so a cross-border route would likely get similar treatment.

 

On the TSW4 streams, Lukas has mentioned a recording trip to Kufstein. Since Kufstein is 182 km away from Bregenz (Vorarlberg line), could the new border / Austrian route be Munich-Rosenheim-Kufstein-Wörgl-Jenbach-Innsbruck (or parts of it as the route may be a bit too long)? DB101 layers could easily be used for EuroCity trains etc.

 

They went to Kufstein because that's where they recorded the Vectron.

 

My point exactly. If the Vectron runs on the Vorarlberg route, why travel all the way to Kufstein for an audio recording, if they weren't gathering / recording data for a future route? That's the equivalent of going to Glossop / Manchester to record Class 323 audio for Birmingham Cross Country!

 

Because Kufstein is where the depot is; it was there they got the loan of a loco and a driver.

 

There are not so many freight service the most on run freight run via Forbach and not Strasbourg and we need 3 New trains

Br 407 or 406 ICEMF
TGV 2N2 or PoS and maybe a New freight locomotive th BR 186 by freight SNCF Or BB 37000 it's more realistic

 

If you use the Austrian ÖBB Baureihe numbers that meant they used an ÖBB Baureihe 1293 the Vectron for sounds. At the same time they should have simply recorded and go inside an ÖBB Baureihe 1016/1116 Taurus locomotive and then clone them to become base locomotives for DB Verkehrsrot 182 MRCE 182 & Dispolok Baureihe 182 instead of the other way around RT182 to make Dispolok MRCE 182 and the ÖBB Baureihe 1016/1116. Imagine having the 1016/1116 having issues that plague the 182 which is Cruise control auto shut down from save.

 

It wasn't OBB, it was Railpool. OBB doesn't have a depot at Kufstein.

 

OK then at least they can make the 1293 at a later date

 

Yeah I’ve also speculated that at some point we could get a longer version of the route, not sure though.

 

This one has a project website it is Wunderline Bremen Oldenburg Leer Groningen . Once the project is completed it will become a main line Bremen Oldenburg Leer Groningen. Do that as is it is not busy however going all the way to Bremen makes it busy from Groningen.

 

Okay. I haven't been on this thread in a while. Can anyone tell me what the general consensus for where this route is going to be is?

 

General consensus is "It's a German route".

 

Lol. Thanks. But like, any clues to where in Germany is what I ment.

 

Mainland Germany, most likely.


In all seriousness - no one here has a clue.

 

That it has a website, says nothing I'm afraid. The first thing anyone in the Netherlands does when they want something to happen, is create a website for it. This site is ran by a lobby group that represents a few towns along the current Wunderlinie - not the opinion of the Dutch and German governments, their network rail operators or the rail companies involved on both sides of the border.

At the moment, the enhanced Wunderlinie is a project that is mainly wishful thinking. ProRail, the Dutch network rail operator, is not giving it any priority.

The Netherlands is currently planning a new sort-of-high-speed (200-230km/h) line between Amsterdam - Lelystad and Groningen. In theory, services on that line could be extended from Groningen into Germany (Hamburg specifically) and onto Copenhagen in Denmark. But currently, the Wunderlinie is a single track, diesel only line. In order to efficiently exploit a line between Amsterdam and Hamburg, it would have to be doubled and electrified at the least, and realistically relaid for large parts to even out curves (to allow higher speeds).

A study has been done by ProRail, and it doesn’t look like the extension will happen for three reasons:

1. Ridership will not be enough to warrant the cost. At the moment, other projects in the Netherlands warrant investment first, as ridership is (or would be) higher.

2. The bridge situation (Friesenbrücke): eight years ago, the current rail bridge over the Eems in Weener, Germany was heavily damaged when a ship rammed it. The line has been cut short ever since, with trains on the German side of the line only, waiting for the bridge to be repaired. The Dutch have requested that the rail bridge should be rebuilt as a two track bridge to go along with electrification and track doubling. The new bridge shouldn't have to remain open for hours a day (whenever a ship would pass - which happens a lot). However, the nearby ship yard successfully objected to that - they want to be able to move ships to and from their ship yard without having to plan around a train timetable. As the ship yard is a major component of the local economy, they got their way.

3. DB Netz, the German rail network operator, doesn’t want to invest in track doubling or electrification on their side of the border. They'd rather leave the route as single track, and run hydrogen powered trains on it. This is also partially politically motivated, as Hamburg and Rotterdam are competing harbours. Creating a fast rail route between them, would seriously impair Hamburg's competitive position, as Rotterdam is a cheaper and easier to reach harbour for most sea routes.

So, in short. The current plan remains to rebuild the bridge like it is today: a single track moveable bridge that will be open for most of the hour during the day - in fact it will only close for a few minutes once an hour for a train to pass in either direction. Electrification isn't fully off the table yet, but those in the know expect that it will be off the table eventually - those hydrogen powered trains do the job nicely.

The Dutch have apparently given up, and despite this lobby group's attempts in trying to convince them otherwise, have more pressing rail matters to attend.

All this prevents a sturdy, frequent service across the line. Add to that that the Dutch would have to invest in diesel- or hydrogen powered trains to run on the line (which they don't need anywhere else on their own network), the fact that the intended stock for the Amsterdam - Lelystad - Groningen Line would be electric AND the fact that running ICEs (or Dutch ICNGs) and BR186s and BR189s would be out of the question... the line simply isn't likely to happen.

 

Thank you for the answer in the previous post I had on this routing it seems if they did this in the first place you would have ended up changing Bremen Oldenburg with the 646 dmu running to Groningen. Furthermore you can drive the Intercity service to Leer Ostfriesland like the 425 BRO version since it's displayed there. For the High Speed Line you mentioned if made then the German section is Schnellfahrstrecke Bremen Oldenburg Leer Bad Nieuwschans Groningen. That one is going to be treated like KWG with high speed trains running in the daytime forcing freight trains to use the passing Loop however at night it's freight train dominated

 

Hopefully in the next roadmap this route and others will get their codes added, then we'll at least know what era the route is set and what traction types to expect.

 

The bottleneck isn't Bremen, it's Weener.

In Weener, the Eems river needs to be crossed (there's no way around it, since it runs north-south) and the local ship yard has docks on both sides of that bridge. the ship yard moves ships (or ships that are under construction) from dock to dock, and need the bridge to be open in order to do that. Before the birdge was damaged, it was closed for a few minutes every hour for a train to pass, but was open the rest of the hour.

So, in order to have a frequent service, that bridge needs to be more available. The ship yard doesn’t want that, since it would seriously impair their way of working. Also, the bridge would need to be rebuilt into a two-track bridge for ICs or even high speed services to be possible (you wouldn't want to make them wait for the train in the opposite direction). This is a huge investment, as the bridge is a swivel bridge at the moment (and would likely need to be converted into a draw bridge or lift bridge for two tracks to fit).

The fact that the current bridge STILL isn’t repaired after eight years (the ship rammed the bridge in 2015!) tells you exactly how much of a priority this line is to the Germans - it isn't.

Should the bridge be repaired but not modified for double track, then sure, a local service from Germany into Groningen would work. But since the bridge is closed for only a few minutes every hour, traffic is limited to one train every two hours per direction. With a bit of planning, that could be extended to twice an hour. But we already had that up until 2015 and ridership was low.

The Dutch are used to way more frequent trains - even rural lines run on 30 minutes interval. Most trains run on a 15 or 10 minute interval. Even on single track routes (see Wageningen <> Amersfoort for instance, or Arnhem <> Doetinchem) they manage to do that. So offering a two-hour interval between two major cities is simply not enough to make it a succes, especially if you can take a bus that runs every 30 minutes and only takes slightly longer to reach Weener.

 

Update:

The bridge won't reopen until 2028, and will be rebuilt into a combined lift- and swivel bridge. The bridge will remain open for most of the hour to allow ships to pass, but will close more often than before. This enables a 60 minute interval service for both directions (one train per hour in each direction, which is double the old situation). The bus service will remain a 30 minute interval one (like it is now).

The bridge will still only be single track, even though the Dutch offered to pay for the upgrade to double track. Like I said - this appears to be politically motivated.

The new bridge is expected to cost between 150 and 200 million euros for the single track variant.

 

Thank you for telling me about that looks like once it's completed we can extend Bremen Oldenburg using the bridge 173 km broken down as 129 km Oldenburg Leer (Ostf) Weener-Bad Nieuweschans Groningen and 44km Bremen Oldenburg with 110.3 N-wagen DB Baureihe 440/1429 with diesel locomotives all the way to the Netherlands although locomotive change happens inside Leer Ostfriesland from Bremen

 

Already posted over on another thread, but worth bringing up here too...

Is that a new German DMU I see?

From the first two seconds of this video on the TSW YouTube channel:

 

In the video at 0:44 you can see "BR 642 DB" in the list of selectable trains.

 

Also looks like this Loco type is used in Austria and US in Oceanside.

 

Well said but on the German Wikipedia Siemens Desiro DMU is called ÖBB Baureihe 5022. Which means we might be getting Mittenwaldbahn Innsbruck to Munich via US Military Edelweiss Resort with DB BR642 ÖBB BR5022 ÖBB Baureihe 1016-1216 locomotives. If you want to finish the True Taurus 1820 km achievement then the 1016/1116 counts towards it just like how Riesa-Dresden 442km achivement works on SKA RSN Power Surge on Bremen 155

 

Would it be possible to also be the Munich-Garmisch-partenkirchen which the 642 was a loco add on for TSC.
I'm not familiar with but just what I saw on TSC

 

So 9 routes, 2 loco packs and an individual loco all coming out in the next 6 months to a year.

Already laying the groundwork for TSW5.

 

Get it now and that route actually went to Innsbruck as a Workshop route with it being merged with TSC HMA basically forming Augsburg München Rosenheim Innsbruck via Garmisch Partenkirchen. If DTG makes the afformentioned workshop route into TSW 4. Then we might see LFR extended to Strasbourg via Frankfurt and Mannheim also a TSC workshop route by Danny that route started life as my Appenweier Strasbourg railway suggestion

 

Correct and for the KkStb routes like Dresden Bodenbach (Decin) license is obtained via the ÖBB since ÖBB is the successor to KkStb K.Sächs Bahn DBAG license

 

Where going back to Aschaffenburg everyone!

Of course coming with the DB BR 642, as leaked. But interestingly, this will be first route to be given the £24.99 price tag since before TSW3 released. Interesting to see how you all feel about that.

From todays Roadmap: https://live.dovetailgames.com/live.../article/train-sim-world-roadmap-october-2023

 

Does not matter that much. Considering
It is already locked behind a TSW4 paywall and the other route(s) you have to buy in order for all the supported rolling stock to appear, the amount of money you have to cough up goes easily into the 3 digits. And if you already have the additional DLC than you already had to pay for TSW3 as well.

 

its still nice that they lowered the price

 

Looking at Dr Google, route looks to be around 25 miles/40km. Unfortunately Google doesn't seem to want to list the direct trains, instead it sends you from Aschaffenburg to Wurzburg for a 977 bus!

According to Wikipedia the service is hourly and some of the trains are operated by 218's and Dosto's, which we are obviously not getting.

 

I thought the 218 (and 232) are done deals and their release is just a matter of time? Maybe the 218 will be finally be made available as a loco for this route, as a separate purchase perhaps. More rolling stock variety would be nice too, particularly passenger coaches...

 

I meant not getting yet, this route would have made a nice launch pad for it.

 

They aren't done. The 420 still has to release. 232 has a 3d model and 218 is like beginning stages, idk. But the 232 and 218 are nowhere near done.

 

Today only the 642 is used.
A few years back (probably 5 or so) it was a mix of 642s and 628s. From the announcement, this is what we'll get.

Regarding the 218: A few years back, some services where run by Dosto's (I think 3) and two 218s (one at either end). But as far as I remember this was the exception (only a few services, e.g. in the morning; only during some times).

 

I agree and for the 232 it needs a Reichsbahn GDR paint making it a DR BR132. Followed by 204 155 143 112 which turns them into a GDR-era DR BR110 250 212 243 with Matching Rekowagen with DR UIC Y-Wagen

 

Regarding to a forum post at ice-treff.de it had been the followig services (at least 2017 / 2018):
Aschaffenburg: 5.41h, 8.39h, 11.39h, 13.39h, 15.39h, 17.39h
Source: https://www.ice-treff.de/index.php?mode=thread&id=502546

Here is a photo of one of those Regionalexpresses:
https://www.bahnbilder.de/name/galerie/kategorie/deutschland~dieselloks-92-80~br-1-218-db-v-164.html

 

One (1) set was replaced with 218-hauled Dostos when Westfrankenbahn had a shortage of DMUs for a while in 2017. If we already had the 218, including it as an option would be neat, but the route is a complete package and perfectly realistic without it.

 

Munchen-Nurnberg would be an absolute jackpot - over 170km of route... it has highspeed traffic like ICE3 and 4s, it has BR102 with special highspeed dostos certified for up to 190 km/h, and also regional traffic and freight, pretty much anything I would personally love ICE4 and BR102+cab car, with layers from other routes possible

Edit: Since they got Vectron, they could also do the Vectron-pulled Munchen-Nurnberg hispeed regio thing (but they would have to figure out how to do functioning ETCS)

 

There was a similar thread posted here just two weeks ago concerning whether the new border crossing route will be from Germany to Salzburg because of an assumed leaked poster on the Vorarlberg route.