Vr?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by fakenham, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. fakenham

    fakenham Active Member

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    I'm a bit surprised that VR has been put on the back burner with TSW2, no mention of it on the roadmap. Surely it wouldn't be too difficult to implement with the unreal engine?

    Having used VR with flight sims it really is the best way to increase immersion, imo. With TSW2s v good performance, I'd have thought VR would work very well (of course some settings would have to be lowered to get smooth 45fps).

    Has anyone used Vorpx with TSW2? If so, any good?
     
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  2. 59321747

    59321747 Active Member

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    It seems you need NVIDIA 3080TI graphics card
     
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  3. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    We have no plans to introduce VR.
     
  4. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I think it is an option on the player survey so if you want it, put it as a high priority, I have to say I didn't :D
     
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  5. stijn.claessens

    stijn.claessens Active Member

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    VR is such a niche market (especially for a game that is also out on XBox and PS4).
     
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  6. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely agree that TSW2 would benefit from VR and really does need looking at though I appreciate there are more important issues to resolve right now within the game.

    I have used Vorpx with TS2, it's not real 3D per-se, it's just like it's being broadcasting on a massive monitor really, also the FOV zooms in too much which can't be altered and therefore you don't get the sense of speed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2020
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  7. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

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    Please see my thread over in the suggestions section. I've listed the arguments why DTG may want to look again at VR.

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/argument-for-vr.32702/

    Yes, I've used Vorpex with TSW1, as you say it's not proper VR, more of a large screen against your eyeball - probably what a lot of people (perhaps) erroneously assume VR to be, which it isn't.

    Kind regards

    Richard
     
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  8. michael hooley

    michael hooley Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure how much of the existing or upcoming competition will have vr, in my opinion only then will DTG consider it.

    Mike
     
  9. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, there are a score of improvements and features TSW2 desperately needs before VR, which is used by a minority of PC users, who are themselves in a minority of TSW2 users if the console sales rumours are to be believed. Also, Unreal Engine 4 sucks with VR if Assetto Corsa Competizione is any yardstick (I used to own a Valve Index).
     
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  10. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    VR is a very niche market as mentioned by another member earlier, please see my above message regarding VR.
     
  11. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Agree it is a very niche market - But MSFS is rolling out their support of VR today since simulations and VR are almost a perfect match in what the simulator is trying to accomplish -- i.e. simulate a real environment to immerse the individual in the belief that are operating in that environment.

    I also agree VR should NOT be a front-burner project, many more items need tweaking before, but to not at least to have R&D looking into VR for the future might be a bit short sighted. I am willing to guess that about as many users of TSW have VR as those that have a Rail-driver.

    I have enjoyed using VR in Derail Valley - but with the routes and locomotives not being prototypical make it a game more than a simulator. The ability to use VR in the AC4400 going over Sand Patch would be something I would look forward to experiencing - arguable in the far future of this franchise.

    Yes - I know and acknowledge it isn't on the road map - but one can always dream.
     
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  12. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    I did like the bit in the Vr thread about ticking a box in Unreal, like that's the end of it. There would definitely not be any "But opening the doors in Vr is a bit awkward" or "Can we have a new HUD?"
    True LeadCatcher, not everyone has a Raildriver, but RD support is going to be part of a more general joystick and other devices support. If you took the number of people who had some sort of a joystick or similar and might think about using it with TSW2, that proportion goes up a bit I think.
    Interesting comparison with MSFS. But, Microsoft have a higher budget for this than DTG do I think, and also I think that the benefit of Vr in a flight simulator is more than in a train simulator. Plus, in the sort of aircraft where Vr is going to be most beneficial (such as a Piper Cub) you can't really step away from the keyboard for a few seconds. Dare I suggest that it is possible to step away for a second or two in a train simulator.
     
  13. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    Plus we don't even have TrackIR support in TSW2 yet iirc. And I do miss TrackIR a bit but its not the end of the world.
     
  14. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I would recommend you take a run in Derail Valley. It is amazing the immersion. As in real life as well as the simulations, if you trim the Piper, you can fly with little to no input dependent on the air turbulence. As an aside, spent my last two years in a high school flying with my best friend in his Super Cub....

    I think you mistook my post, I think VR is definitely a future direction for TSW to take, and yes it is a lot more involved than just checking a box and as I stated it should not be a near term goal.

    I did not promote VR to exclude work on Direct Input, TrackIR support as well as a myriad of other more pressing improvements. As to TrackIR, I use it all the time in my flight sims as well as TS2020 and I think it is great... but it is a poor second cousin to VR with respect to immersion. But to ignore VR technology indefinitely I feel would be a lost opportunity if it could be implemented.

    it will be I interesting to see where VR is prioritized o; the current survey.
     
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  15. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

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    Hello,

    I really hope DTG look at implementing VR . DTG will need to take a strategical decision to implement VR like other developers have done rather than just dipping their toe into the noise to see how popular it would be.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2020
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  16. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    The idea of vr is great and so is the immersion, but it will continue to be niche until the hardware improves.
    I think dtg have enough on their plate without adding to their workload.
     
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  17. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    LeadCatcher I don't have a Vr headset. I'm also not sure how practical it would be with the sort of locos that we get in TSW2 (with lots of controls) but maybe a mouse plus physical throttle quadrant / RailDriver would be fine. Back to the Cub, even with trimming I don't think you'd want to look away for long, particularly in a simulator when your body can't feel the movement. I'm not anti-Vr though.
     
  18. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Actually, as is evident by Derail Valley, you manipulate the controls with the VFR controllers. You grab the reverser and move it in the direction you want, you have your hand on the throttle and brake. You move around the cab to flip the breakers and switches. Depending on the size of your area, you have a bit of locomotion. It is hard to explain but you are “in” the action. Really no different from using a mouse or Xbox controller in the simulation as we do today.

    And for those that state DTG has plenty on their plate at this time, I agree, that why I am saying this should be a consideration for a future, meaning not today or immediate, addition. And as Sam has stated, it isn’t on the list, nor would I expect it to be on the list for quite some time. It does not mean it should be on the radar at some point. Let’s face it , only a few routes are on the list at this time, I sure hope a lot more are on the radar :)

    Best.
     
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  19. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Think Track IR comes first.
    Also easier to implement.
     
  20. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I am going to stop comments since I am obviously not making myself clear. .. YES TrackIR, better optimization, better dynamic weather all should have priority, BUT I still think VR should be somewhere on a back burner as a possible feature. And it will be interesting to see where it falls on the survey which should tell DTG where and how much community interest is in the technology.

    I do hope all that read this understand I support the prioritization of much of the discussed features and improvements in these forums ahead of VR investigation or work toward implementation. I just do not think the technology should be dismissed out of hand is all I am trying to convey.

    Best and Happy Holidays to all, enjoy your families, time off if you are so lucky, stay safe and healthy and if possible grab some time and drive a few trains.....
     
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  21. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

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    I'll be spending the holidays flying in VR in MSFS, dreaming we'll be able to step into the cab one day, just like we can the flight deck or cockpit. I've shamelessly tried to raise the discussion on VR on these forums and I'm really pleased DTG have included it as an option in their survey so good on them. I'm pleased they are at least aware of it as a future development option. I'm know Matt would LOVE the implementation also, he's also seen the light. We've got someone of influence on our side, someone who has also been with the hobby since we saw MSTS in PC Gamer and thought, what's this?

    As for hardware, the new generation of headsets are next level in terms of visual resolution, comfort and practicality.

    Kind regards

    Richard
     
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  22. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    To think we haven't done / aren't doing R&D on VR isn't strictly true so I wanted to clarify that - we did R&D on VR and TSW right at the start. Just enabling the basic stereo mode for a headset is as simple as a console command in a properly enabled build - but making something work in VR is a lot more than just turning on stereo mode and head tracking. All forms of user interaction need to be re-considered, things like HUD's don't work too well in VR either or at the very least your normal "pancake" HUD isn't going to work at all as it stands.

    None of these problems are impossible to solve, in fact none of them are especially difficult to solve - but they all take time.

    So - yes, we've done R&D on VR, i've personally been a fan and a big user of VR since Oculus DK1 and have also been to VR conferences and early prototype presentations etc. I developed a prototype integration for the DK2 which worked with Train Simulator 2014 (back in the day) which was even demonstrated at GamesCom though never actually released to the public for many reasons. DTG (not myself, another much more talented individual!) did some early work on Euro Fishing sim with Valve to work with the headset that was ultimately released as the Vive from Valve/HTC. To that end, we have a pretty good idea of the challenges, a good idea of the solutions, and a good idea of the kinds of configurability that people now expect from VR (snap turning, smooth turning, teleporting, smooth locomotion, motion controllers etc). It's not easy, but it's understood and not terribly difficult.

    On the flip side...

    VR is a tiny niche market. Train Sim enthusiasts that have a VR system and PC that is high end enough to give a good experience is even more niche. That then itself is only one out of the three supported platforms of the game.

    So you're talking about spending effort on something that only a very small number of people can benefit from, when there are other things to create that everyone can benefit from.

    This... is why there's no VR in any plans.

    ... and while "but the new flight sim has it..." is perfectly valid as a response, and i'm thrilled to bits and have been (and will continue to) enjoy the new VR integration on Flight Sim myself a lot i'm sure... that doesn't mean it's the right decision for TSW and the TSW team at the moment.

    As someone said earlier, the survey is out there, figure out for yourself what your priorities are and tell us via the survey, that is exactly what it's there for.
     
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  23. Kazick

    Kazick Member

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    So on one hand I am all for the idea of VR, and the other I'm not.

    Having played things like DCS World, iRacing, Aces High, and many others in VR its nice to be able to lean your head around to peer around a pillar or over the nose to see something that might have been blocked by your vehicle. And being fully immersed in the environment is great.

    My issue is with how long can some one play in VR before comfort is an issue. I have no problem playing DCS for 3-4 hours in VR. Or doing a 2 hour race in iRacing. Or spending a few hours flying in Aces High. But things like X-Plane where I do 4-6 hour flights I feel thats not a good time to be in VR. I have multiple screens so having YouTube or Netflix up for my "in flight entertainment" is a thing I do.

    And even when I play Train Sims I'm at it for several hours. (Longest single session I did was 13 hour drive.) When doing train simming I also have notes up on other screens such as what tracks I need to put what cars on. SOmthing I'd have to flip my VR headset up to read, or use some sort of in VR screen system. I don't know if I could wear a VR headset for that long, and I feel there are people who would agree. So if anything, if it was something that could be toggled on and off on the fly I think that would be some thing to be considered.

    I'm all for VR in any Train Sim, I just hope that if its ever added its something we can quickly toggle with out exiting game.
     
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