I am sure it was highlighted it wasn't ready, but the pressure of FOMO on DTG part, as they wanted our money for a product they know isn't ready. The funny thing is players will still go and buy it as is, but those players are just fuelling this to happen again. TSW6 will arrive next year and it will be another car crash with a promise of we will fix it.
This is the big downer for me. It's reduced my interest in the route so I will await to when the route itself is reduced in price in a sale...if at all.
Yeah but it’s a drone filmed from altitude by a camera. It won’t be like that at ground level, and it doesn’t take into account the human eye’s night vision.
A lot depends on the drone camera. My phone camera sees night completely differently to how my eyes see it. To base something so fundamental on something so vague as a drone camera seems reckless at best, negligent at worst.
Oh. I didn't realise altitude had an effect on how dark things were. Also, TSW has never taken human eye vision into account. Every eye is different.
Just as an FYI, this was one of an example of pieces of footage we were able to glean (wasn't the only reference material, just wanted to use it to illustrate).
Which is why, in a game some level on compensation has to be made for it. You can’t just leave it inky black and say, ‘yeah, looks good’.
This is exactly a repeat of the New York Trenton debacle almost down to the word for word stuff, “we decided to focus on playable services”, “we hope to re-visit timetable but make no commitments”, etc. And that took 7 months to fix (somewhat). I hate to say it because I buy a lot of DTG stuff on day 1 but the best strategy is to just park their stuff for a few months and wait for at least a few patches. When I play stuff at release I end up just being a beta tester sending in a bunch of tickets. It’s clear that the problem is the deadlines they set. It’s not that they can’t make good quality routes it’s that they can’t do it in the timelines they set and then rely on post release patches to (maybe) get it to the point it should be on day 1. Even basic stuff like off route destinations and other obvious things, it shouldn’t take the community noticing errors on streams within weeks of release to be the first time it’s addressed.
It does look like those buildings are blocking the light. It's a shame we don't have more night lighting material to go off.
Is it even correct to the present timetable? I heard a 4tph to Watford but that can’t just equate to 64 services right?
Is gaslighting the new DTG strategy then JD? Genuinely pretty shocked at where DTG are right now. Poor show.
Interesting. You have more experience with this than I do, so I can't really argue. Personally, I'm fine with the night lighting, but won't be getting WCML without an acceptable timetable.
Seriously, who the hell looked at this timetable and thought “oh yeah, this is fine”?? it’s like going into your garage with your car, that’s absolutely destroyed, filled with dents and holes, and the mechanic says “it’s just a scratch”
Nighttime Lighting – We’ve listed minor improvements to nighttime lighting in our first patch for WCML above to improve the way buildings are lit, however, we wanted to clarify that from real-world references, the area is generally very dark and we’re happy with the result we have achieved. Just how representative is drone footage when trains travel on rails at ground level for the most part with the driver looking to the side or straight ahead. It would of made more sense to buy tickets and sit on a train and use your phone camera to get a better idea.
Track Shadows – During our preview, we’ve seen feedback that track shadows weren’t appearing to be functional on junctions, this is intentional and due to the unique nature and design of every junction being a complex process to render reliably. I know you have to tow the corporate line Alex, but really? I mean FFS. This is 2024. The visuals and audio are a very important part of the experience. Are we now saying its OK to have some shadows but not others? Really? And you are happy with that as a developer? Shadows/lighting are the foundations that make a good image. If you can't do them properly, find someone that can. If you are worried about performance, give the player some options. Don`t try and keep everyone happy out of the box. It's impossible. Implement DLSS or FSR. This on its own will give you, the developer, and the player, more performance headroom. I can forgive slight inaccuracies, as they have never bothered me. But looking out of the cab window to see ballast/sleepers/shadows popping in and out just is not good enough. Who signs this stuff off as OK? It's actually becoming quite embarrassing.
I personally don’t like how the list Alex provided didn’t breakdown TPH either, given the catastrophic night lighting (which they’re apparently happy with?), I wouldn’t be too fussed about the service pattern being fictional at night time. What I suspect has happened here though is that a certain dev has used their woeful dev techniques & it’s causing stability issues. I bet those 90 minute gaps in the 710 TT are to facilitate an increase in 350/390 traffic at certain times. This scenery tile copy & paste from older TSW routes has also happened twice & on both occasions it has resulted in the same problem. The last route Rivet released was a shambles & it perplexes me that DTG have let them anywhere near WCML.
You are right, the Overground runs a train every 15 minutes on all it's lines. This timetable is a joke and it must be down to those devs at rivet.
Just to be clear, I understand that gaslighting means lying. Are you suggesting the DTG is lying? I just want to make sure I have understood you correctly.
I completely agree with all the valid criticism as I'm hugely disappointed myself with this shambles, but let's not be rude to the messengers and understand they are just the staff on the 'front line' of the forums. Nothing wrong with asking questions let's just be polite...
Absolutely you can argue! It’s just opinion after all. All I would say is next time you’re out in the country at night stop and turn off all lights. Is it only black, or can you see something? Surely we can agree you can see something. Do the same in a big city, the ambient light alone would be significant. If they can’t mimmic the human eye then you have to add some sort of fake light to compensate. Neither would be correct in fairness but as a gamer I know which I would rather have. Pitch darkness is not the answer.
No. Gaslighting means to make you question the validity of your own perspective. It makes you question and doubt yourself, rather than the object or person in question. It's a robust phrase, but when DTG pull this kind of nonsense, robust is what is needed. Put it this way. Wallet has just clanged shut.
No I mean all I have to go on is what DTG say, whereas you have actual experience with designing for user experience (I think you've made some mods for TSW). As for going outside at night, I don't really see as much as I can on TOD3 nights. The TOD4 routes seem to have much more accurate night lighting to me. It does make Spirit of Steam's night services a pain, though. I can't see anything at all there, so perhaps some very very faint light could be had there.
I live in London and I believe the only time it would be that dark would be during a power cut. London and it's environs have huge light pollution right out until you reach the sticks, and then you can look back and see the light in the sky.
It doesn't really matter which studio built it, because some can release great routes and also release terrible ones. The main thing is, this route isn't appearing to meet that new "high standard immersive" qualification that should be coming with a new titular game. I think my money's going on Space Marine 2 for a while
Thanks for making the Route terrible and awful The entire Route is complete Dead until the Full Class 710 Timetable every 15 Minute or the Bakerloo is included
I would also like to know this. If in reality it’s 4 trains/hour in each direction but only 65 services in TSW, that’s a pretty sorry excuse of a timetable. Who greenlit that?
4 trains per hour, 8 services for both directions per hour, 32 services is 4 hours, 64 would be 4tph for 8 hours. The Watford DC has 4 trains an hour from 5am till 11pm in reality so 18 hours. You'd need 144 services to just do Watford to Euston runs, not including ECS runs to Willesden TMD. https://content.tfl.gov.uk/watford-...don-overground-timetable-june-to-dec-2024.pdf
Not to mention the fact that even if you had 4tph from 8am to 4pm, you'd still have a lot of time either side where there would be no LO services at all. This means the Overground services must be more spread out. by having only 2tph, you could have services running for 16 hours, but every 30 minutes.
The way I see it is this, and this is personal opinion obviously. On the whole since TSW3, but particularly since TSW4, I think DTG’s content has been pretty damn good, SHG have come on a million miles since the first iteration of MML and Just Trains clearly knocked it out of the park on their first attempt. That leaves an outlier though. Other than Bernina Line (which was weirdly very good and is the exception that proves the rule), the vast majority of Rivet’s content has been well below par. Some of it has been downright rank. This is a major relaunch of the franchise and a studio with a sketchy history has been entrusted with one of the flagship routes, something that many players (and particularly UK players) were waiting for. They have clearly dropped the ball again, yet DTG are the ones copping the flak for it and that isn’t fair in my opinion. I don’t mean to put JD or Alex on the spot unduly asking the question, but the fact that it isn’t being answered should tell you all you need to know. When DTG have screwed up they have (mostly) held their hands up and said so. Rivet never do. I’m done buying Rivet products. I will not support this standard of content anymore.
If anyone's interested, the total number of services is 690. Exactly the same as on the preview stream.
Agreed, it's unfair on DTG that they're getting hounded for this. Wonder if they'll either put immense pressure on whoever is responsible to get this sorted, or just cut their losses and start the timetable from scratch. Sorry to the DTG staff on here, completely understand that no one likes copping it as I've been on the receiving end a lot in my career!
If you are anywhere within 25 miles of a city at night it is never pitch black. The light from the city reflects off the cloud level or inversion level bounces back to earth. What we are seeing is the worst night time lighting of a city I have ever seen in a modern game. Compare this with American Truck and European Truck sims city skies at night since 2021 to 2024 in their recent DLC's and there is zero comparison.
Exactly, boycott rivet. Incidentally DTG should do the same because they are being dragged down by them too.
Not really. DTG must carry the can for outsourcing this to Rivet in the first place, should that be the case, knowing full well the limits of their competency.
If DTG have used a 3rd party contractor to complete work that is fine, but DTGs responsibility becomes quality control which clearly did get ignored.
I'm glad I refunded my pre-order. If it's heavily discounted in a sale, the community has filled the gap that DTG couldn't be bothered to, and/or DTG release a patch (lol), then maybe. As it stands? Nah, it's not worth the price.
I think you’ll find far more of this game is outsourced than you would believe. Outsourcing it to Rivet is the problem but then it’s probably not just that simple. I’m sure there are personal relationships, contractual commitments etc there that can’t just be discarded.
That's not what a point light does, it emits light in all directions from a given point in space. I don't know much about game lighting but I guess they'd have to 'cheat' a bit with some sort of directional lighting from the general vicinity of a lit space, e.g. a station entry point, or use some sort of environment mapping (perhaps the former is used as part of the process to bake the latter?).
