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West Coast Main Line South Improvements

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DTG Protagonist, Sep 18, 2020.

  1. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Sam, much appreciated.

    As an aside, I managed to get WCML South back in my Quick Drive menu. When you have about 500GB of Railworks content, verifying your files through Steam takes a while.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
  2. ChiefJackYT

    ChiefJackYT New Member

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    I presume that’s Sam’s last post? By waiting for news, I assumed that was referring to the changes / patch notes, not the time. My bad
     
  3. Forzaboy4

    Forzaboy4 Member

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    Hopefully this drastically improves performance, I was running 8fps on low settings!
     
  4. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    And THEN you have to sit there working out what 3rd party addons it has ruined LOL. Great fun. Enjoy!
     
  5. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    As soon as it runs as well as all other routes, and AI collisions don't end the scenario... I will re-buy it. All the rest can be patched as and when.
    [edit] Don't forget the Pendolino windows! :)
     
  6. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's bricked a load of stuff, but I'll sort it as always.
     
  7. Forzaboy4

    Forzaboy4 Member

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    Any updates so far - Hope you are all doing well :)
     
  8. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    It's the weekend, DTG are allowed the weekend off once in a while.
     
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  9. BritishRail60062

    BritishRail60062 Member

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    I too hope that the update will make the route playable without me having to turn the settings right down to N64 quality to even play it. Hence why I left a negative review on Steam and I don't leave negative reviews on Steam without a good reason. I trusted DTG in the past and I bought this add-on without hesitation out of TRUST. Trust is something that makes me nervous as I don't trust easily but once I trust a company or a person. I trust them until they become unreliable and DTG has smashed my trust on future add-ons because I will check other videos and reviews before I part with my hard earned money again. Even if they made a fantastic Shinkansen Tokyo to Osaka route in the future. I would scrutinise it and look at reviews and videos from other people that are factual before buying it.

    I know this sounds harsh but I am a candid person and to be honest. They botched this route big time because although I can fix floating buildings myself in the route editor without issues and that in itself is not a deal breaker. Its the low FPS that is the killer for this add-on. That said, DTG are working on a patch for this and maybe that will make the route playable as that is most important than floating buildings. Once I can play this route on normal settings and have decent framerates. I will then revise my review but I cannot do anything until the patch comes out because I am not going to recommend something that is botched and should have never been released in this state. I too would have been happy to wait another month or two to have a fully working add-on that doesn't lag to the point that is not usable.

    At least the positive here is that DTG are aware of these issues and they are working on a patch. I am content with freeware WCML South version for the time being and I am in no rush to jump back onto the payware version of this route. Therefore if DTG need more time to work on the patch, then so be it. I would rather wait a bit longer for a working patch that fixes all issues rather than 2-3 different patches as then once DTG has fixed this route. They can permanently put their focus onto other add-on's if they get this one right.
     
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  10. BritishRail60062

    BritishRail60062 Member

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    From a logical point of view. I am happy to wait longer for a full one-off working patch that fixes all issues. I am using the freeware version of WCML South, so I am in no rush for a patch as then they will have more time to double check everything before releasing it.
     
  11. BritishRail60062

    BritishRail60062 Member

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    Well I am going to say this. Logic is becoming a rare commodity in the 2020's and has been heading this way since the 2010's. They can update as they wish but that won't change my new views on DTG when comes to new content. I don't take too kindly to anyone betraying my trust. Be it a person or a company. I never get bitten twice.
     
  12. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    A little bit of hyperbole goes a long way.

    If they waited a few weeks for everything to be ready then there would then be unrest on here at the amount of time they were taken and why couldn't they have sorted the frame rates out first and issued a patch for the others issues later, of which you are likely to be part of. At least if they can issue a patch which makes it run satisfactorily or even at all on some people systems those who have it can start to enjoy it whilst waiting for the more niggly items to be fixed later. Still whatever they do, someone will know better of course.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  13. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Judging by the latest performance, yep, someone else probably does know better.
     
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  14. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    But surely a bit of flack for a week or so delay but releasing a much more polished product would be better than releasing it in the state it was, getting even worse flack for the quality of their work and still having to spend a week or so putting it right?

    My guess was they planned on releasing it and hoped to ride out a few complaints but totally underestimated the amount of complaints they actually got.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The bigger point here is that they didn't have to announce it at all! If they had said "hey here's 2021 and you get three routes in the bundle" then a month later "hey, there's a new route which is fast and stable" nobody would have batted an eyelid.
    In essence they shot themselves in the foot by forcing it out as a deluxe pack when there was absolutely no need.
     
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  16. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    DTG management missed a trick. Instead of rushing it out and putting it in a bundle, they could have sorted out the problems and sold it at the usual price of £29.99. Simples.
     
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  17. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well yes that would have been a far better decision I don't disagree but they did and now they are tying to make amends.
     
  18. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    10 days has passed.
     
  19. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Saying in one post that they should wait til it's right and then calling them out on a timescale in the next post doesn't help your case...
    And Sam said "targetting" rather than "it will be"
     
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  20. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Member

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    I think that's 10 working days, and shouldn't we rather just wait until it's ready instead of getting impatient and abiding by the deadline? Otherwise we'll have another repeat of this whole saga.
     
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  21. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I imagine it will be working days, that is how most business work.

    Exactly, it would be better to wait for it to be ready rather than release the fixes too early and then find they aren't correct. That is how this started in the first place. Of course, that might suit some people!
     
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  22. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Better to release it right in the first place, amaze your customer base with quality.

    Or.... don't do that and see what happens.

    I just can't ardently defend bad workmanship or bad design.

    Way back, the Austin Allegro had a cunning plan to set itself back on the course of best car evar... fold down tray tables for the rear passengers and a Rolls Royce style grill plate. It's documented, that actually happened. Doesn't make it right.
     
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  23. Forzaboy4

    Forzaboy4 Member

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    It isn't a saga, its a paid for good that is, in its current state, unplayable for myself.
     
  24. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Just acknowledging that 10 days have passed since release day. Nothing more, nothing less.
     
  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The Austin Allegro didn't have a plan, it is an inanimate object! It wasn't just documented, it actually existed. The Leyland management created a luxury version called the Vanden-Plas which had the fold down tables, leather trim and a more traditional grill, just like that had done with the ADO16 before it with the Vanden-Plas Princess. It was a range topping model, just like Ford had the Ghia versions. Most versions didn't have these features, it wasn't an attempt to make it the best car ever it was to make a mini luxury car for those who wanted a Jaguar and what was considered a traditional British car in terms of features, leather and wood and a fancy grille, but couldn't afford Jaguar prices or didn't want a large saloon.

    It was quite a good seller and have seen a few myself, quite a few still exist, so I would say it was actually a good plan by British Leyland.

    I have had two Allegro's in recent years and they were comfortable, roomy and fun cars to drive and worth quite a lot of money now.
     
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  26. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    It's a lot more fun to personify the Allegro though, hydroelastic suspension, optional brake servo, combined engine and gearbox oil, quartic steering wheel...

    I am aware of the Vanden Plas model, hence the reference.

    There are reasons why the Allegro never really took off. Take a look at the Beetle for a car that really did well.
     
  27. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I'm just wondering why a post saying it will almost certainly be before weekend... then following it up with "no idea.. it's ready when it's ready"... and leaving us waiting was necessary. Why not just say it's ready when it's ready in the first instance, and no one would have expected it this weekend. I don't think anyone DID expect it this weekend until that post was made, so it seems a bit pointless to guess and get people's hopes up.
     
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  28. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Optional brake servo, common on cars of that period. The RHD mark 2 Polo of 1981 to 1990 didn't have a brake servo at all. Both Allegro's I had had a brake servo, I know several Allegro owners they all have brake servos, in fact I have never seen an Allegro without one. I think it was only an option on the 1100 Deluxe bottom of the range model, as I said not unknown in the 70's.

    A lot of BL cars including the sainted Mini had a gearbox in the sump that is why it shared the same oil. The Peugeot/Citroen/Renault suitcase engine also had the same set up as do one or two Hondas and a Lamborghini, as do several motorbikes.

    The Quartic steering wheel was available for a very short time but was ahead of it's time, as several modern cars have similar steering wheels, and suddenly it is cool. Sadly the UK motoring press was always rubbishing British brands and then wondering why they weren't doing so well.

    The Allegro didn't have hydrolastic suspension (my Maxi has) it was the first car to have hydrogas suspension, which replaced hydralastic which was also in every BL car after the Allegro and Maxi's after 1978, it was revolutionary at the time and gives taught handling and smooth ride, which is why I can throw the Maxi round bends with a lot of modern cars. Hydrogas was fitted to cars as recent as the MGF and the Rover 100.

    Have you driven a Beetle? They are awful, noisy, slow and vertical pedals which are horrible to use, they also rust like very little else. The Allegro was actually known for being quite rust resistant. The Beetle did well because at the time it was launched in the 1930's it was an easy to maintain and rugged car, by the 70's it was well past it's prime and if you think the Beetle is a more pleasant car to drive than an Allegro I suggest you compare both.

    Yes the Allegro didn't do as well as BL wanted but it certainly wasn't a failure. It was ahead of it's rivals the Escort and Chevette which still had Rwd, inline engines and ancient suspension, where the Allegro had fwd, Hydrogas suspension and transverse engine and on the larger engines a 5 speed gearbox. I can also guarantee the Allegro rusted less and with full door trims, cloth sets by 1977 and decent carpets on the standard model which was a far nicer place to sit in than the Escort and Chevette which still had acres of bare metal and plastic seat trim.

    It is frankly lazy to personify the Allegro in that way, it is usually done by people with no experience of them who hang on Jeremy Clarksons every word, I have heard it all before.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Because if he had said "when it is ready" he would have probably been accused of being obtuse or something and then we would have had even more people questioning when it was coming out and moaning there was no news!
     
  30. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Someone was kind enough to loan me their yellow original 1300 Beetle for a few months a good 15 years or so ago. Was like driving a small tractor, but loads of fun. Air cooled engine too, with a ridiculous design, but it just kept going forever.

    My mum had an Allegro from 1985 to around 1992. It was terrible. It's favorite party trick was to die, when you needed it the most.

    Taste is subjective. The Beetle had merit. The Allegro was a money pit.
     
  31. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well I know of someone who has just spend nearly £2,000 having a Beetle welded up. I never had any problems with my two Allegros apart from a leaking clutch slave cylinder which was easily fixed. One of them was 40 years old had never been welded. I don't think I would keep a car for 7 years if it was a money pit to be honest or if it was so unreliable!
     
  32. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, she was a single mum, and kept the car going on the kindness of others for years. Miracle it lasted so long I guess.

    Credit to it, it got my sister and I over to my dads regularly, but it was a misery mobile. Just no helping it. The Beetle, was ridiculous too, but it had that element of fun about it.
     
  33. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    As a quick update, you probably spotted that we were trying to get this ready to go for Thursday/Friday but it didn't complete QA in time. There shouldn't be too much more to cover, but I'll try to get you an as-accurate-as-possible launch date tomorrow.
     
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  34. BritishRail60062

    BritishRail60062 Member

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    I have mate. I have been planning for my 2021 plans for preserving a real bus :) .
    To be honest. With 22 upvotes on my review of this route in Steam and why I cannot recommend it in this state. I cannot be alone on this issue. I have a right to state my views on a product that I have paid money for and at the asking price for £40 for the Deluxe Edition of TS2021. I did expect the route to be usable without the need to turn the settings all the way down to be able to play it and have to put up with Nintendo N64 style graphics. But I think the reassuring fact here is that DTG (unlike other game developers that I could mention) are aware of the problem and I really hope that they can solve this issue.

    I am not going to hide away from the facts that this route add-on was rush, unchecked for quality and should have never been released in this state. Anyone that knows me personally will know that I am a reasonable person and I am patient. I have waited patiently for Hornby to make a model of 60100 in DB livery and September 2020, they delivered. I would have no problem at all in waiting for a properly finished and working project.

    Take the London add-on for OMSI 2 for example and the amount of stick that has been getting because of delays for licencing and other things that take time to develop. The release date has been estimated to be in November 2020 now and it was originally meant to be released in July 2017. So things do get put back and I prefer quality over quantity. If the patches for this route work out and fixes all the issues for performance then fine. I will revise my review accordingly but until then. I am not doing anything :).
    Exactly my argument here mate. I am happy to wait a wee bit longer for a working route that isn't sluggish and will be finished properly rather than buy something that is bugged and laggy to the point of being unusable :).

    Exactly and from my observations is that 95% of people would be content with a delay of a release so that proper testing and bug finding and fixing could take place. It avoids backlashes and bad reviews like this route has got. Having done a business course myself and know how reputation works. It can hard as rock to make a name for yourself in a good light that can take years to build and only a few bad reports and reviews to destroy the reputation that was built.

    Not sure if you play OMSI 2 and are aware of the London add-on but that is three years behind schedule because of several issues that have now been addressed and that should be with us in November 2020 all being well. But if it needs to take more time to iron out bugs and glitches, then so be it :).
     
  35. BritishRail60062

    BritishRail60062 Member

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    Take as long as needed DTG. I am happy to wait for a working fix and not something that is rushed. I am sure the wait will be worth it as long as the patch fixes the lag and the other effects on gameplay. I am grand and I am happy to fix the floating buildings issue on some areas myself :).
     
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  36. Reef

    Reef Active Member

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    Oh shush now you. We are far to busy complaining and uh apparently discussing Austin Allegro's to care about patch releases, stop interrupting the flow with your off topic nonsense..
     
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  37. tsarianchild

    tsarianchild Member

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    Best post of the day.
     
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  38. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    Apologies for the interruption. The Maestro was worse than the Allegro. The Maestro has pretentions.
     
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  39. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Square steering wheel... that's all that needs to be said :)
     
  40. BritishRail60062

    BritishRail60062 Member

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    I called them lego cars when I was a kid in the 1980's as they looked like bricks on wheels but they were comfortable though. I used to use one as my music room with the passenger seat fully reclined whilst playing cassettes from the 1980's when the family used to watch Neighbours, Home and Away and all that tack that I found boring. I couldn't play the music in the house as at the time. We only had the main stereo that could play tapes hence the reason for the Maestro becoming my music room. The seats were like a sofa unlike the modern hard plastic of today. Those were some of the great days of my childhood besides hornby train sets, board games, meccano and lego :).

    There were no PC gaming, consoles or anything fancy like that. I was happy with what I had though :).
     
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  41. car147

    car147 New Member

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    Both were terrible. A workmate at the time went collect his brand new Maestro, only for the drivers door to fall off when he closed it lol
    Same guy had a brand new Allegro Automatic ( I cannot remember if this was before or after the above) Twice it lost the oil filter on a journey destroying said engine. ( Main dealer was the supplier and carried out all servicing ) It was not the case of the filter not being tightened to the correct torque.
     
  42. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    Maxi I bought from a friend, ugly basic car in the BL beige but it was reliable, sold it for more than I paid for it.
    Next, Rover 2000 SDi, close the door and the door trim would fall off. Had an electrical fault which meant disconnecting the battery every night. No mechanic could sort it.
    Next, a Maestro which spent more time in the garage than on the road.
    Next a mechanic friend advised I get a SAAB. Had them for nearly 30 years and never looked back.
     
  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    An oil filter wouldn't just fall off without reason!

    It always amazes me that 99% tales of woe about BL cars are by people who have never actually owned one, it is always a mate or their second cousin twice removed who sat in the back of one for 10 minutes in 1977! I have had two Maestro's too and never had a problem with either apart from a head gasket on one and that was because the car had been in a garage for ten years without being moved..

    Anyway this is completely off topic, just to note I wasn't the one who mentioned Allegro's in the first place, I just responded to a ridiculous analogy.
     
  44. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Got a little conversation going though, didn't it? :) wasn't so negative either really as an outcome. No harm done.

    Now onto that frame rate update, absolutely cannot wait.
     
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  45. george.conrad.allen

    george.conrad.allen New Member

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  46. car147

    car147 New Member

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    No i did not own one.. but as i stated my workmate did.. They slackened off each time.
     
  47. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Strange, it must have been a faulty one as I have never heard of that happening before. Maybe the housing on the engine block was worn or faulty, although they are cast so would be the same.
     
  48. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    Why? A bit of banter doesn't harm, it kills time while waiting for WCMLS updates. ;)
     
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  49. martschuffing

    martschuffing Member

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    "The Maestro was worse than the Allegro"

    I can confirm this is true.
     
  50. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think the Maestro was undoubtedly a better car all round, it was much more practical and refined. The early Maestros suffered some reliability and build quality problems. They had quite an advanced, at the time CPU controlling the ignition and carburettor, but it didn't always work as it should, it would often have the choke in when you were trying to start it from cold and when warm the choke would be open and flooding the carburettor, the trim on the early ones could be very brittle. By 1987 they were much better built, the Honda influence was there for all to see, under their influence management had totally changed the working practices at Longbridge and Cowley.
     

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