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What Am I Looking At???

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Monder, Jun 26, 2020.

  1. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I am usually a fan of more sophisticated constructive critique, so pardon for a more... simplistic reaction this time... but...
    TSW2 - Köln.jpg
    WHAT IS THIS???
    TSW2 - Köln3.jpg
    WHAT THE HELL IS THIS???

    Is that supposed to be...
    Cologne_cathedrale_vue_sud.jpg
    ...THIS?

    Now I know it is a TRAIN simulator and buildings are not that important, but we're talking KÖLNER DOM here. This is an absolute icon of the city, it has even been the tallest building in the world for ten years. The TSW2 version does not even look like it has 157 meters. This is important, you don't have to get every single spire and gargoyle done and made with precise detail, but at the very least a general shape would be nice to get right as it is right next to the main station. Everyone arriving there for the first time looks at this building with awe. I am not even German and this is just silly to me. Imagine having Charing Cross in the game and Big Ben looking like a bell tower in Zadar Croatia (feel free to look it up).

    To be completely clear I do not expect this to all of a sudden get remade or changed, there are tonnes of more important things even for me to be done (*cough cough* compatible rolling stock from TSW1 *cough cough*). I just wanted to point this out, hopefully, we can laugh at this in the end and have a giggle every time we arrive in Köln with our ICE 3Ms.
     
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  2. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    Oh I'm giggling alright... trying to work out if its just one or perhaps two meters shorter than it should be ;)
     
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  3. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I have been to Cologne, and the perspective looks fine to me. The view is from rail height at the other end of the station, about 500m away.

    Yes - if you walk out of the main station and look up, you will be dominated by those double spires. But if you walk 500m in the other direction, you will get this (from just below track height):

    Koln  perspective.jpg


    So it is fine. Really - it is perfectly fine. This would be a very difficult thing to get wrong - although there might also be a fore-shortening scaling factor in the TSW world... maybe 1.6:1 (or 8:5), which might make things look a bit smaller than they should, when viewed from a large distance (like 500m).
     
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  4. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    The same Köln/Cologne cathedral viewed from backward side, like in the real life if your train head to "west" (Aachen, Brussels, maybe Amsterdam too). But you can always move on 100 meters forward the station by walking (opposite Köln Hbf side) to admire the frontal view, I suppose.

    Our ICE3 is on North-East of this image, just before (or outside) the central station.
    kolndom.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
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  5. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Oh no, it’s slightly different.
     
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  6. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    yes
     
  7. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this - your image just confirms how absolutely right the Line of Sight is, in the TSW2 promo pictures, as highlighted below - they have got it absolutely spot on......:

    LOS kolndom.jpg
     
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  8. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, also if at moment we haven't these strong tools to design a simple straight line from point A to point B we (me+me=we) are agree with your...line.
     
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  9. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I visit Köln usually once or twice per year, the cathedral is clearly visible from all sides. IC trains from Bonn arrive from pretty much the same direction as ICE from Aachen, so I know the view very well. This is far from it. It might be the overall shape of the thing - too much seems to be done by textures and it takes a lot from the "volume" of the thing. I do admit it might be a weird complaint, but this and the bridge over Rhein are the most significant things to see in Köln even if you're just passing by on board of a train. There are more important issues, it just seems weird to me.
    Slightly? Just like a slight difference between medium and well-done steak, right? People have been loudly complaining about way smaller things than this - a manual loader on ECW instead of the automatic one in TSW. Caltrain route would not look as good with Salesforce and Transamerica skyscrapers having such a "slightly different" look. Routes are not just about the tracks being correctly placed, the surroundings make them authentic.
     
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  10. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    For people local to any route in TSW the depictions of surrounding buildings will look wrong because they are not meant to be accurately depicted. This looks to be one of the best architectural models in TSW, if not the best, not counting stations (which are much more important to get right for a train simulator) but more accurate that even some of those. It looks very good from the picture and is not just a standard large church asset. In a lot of routes there some major landmarks that are visible from the railway that are not included at all, some very close to stations as well.
     
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  11. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well the original building seems to have really complex walls and whatnod, I suppose it made sense to tone it down to avoid the model having too much polygons. Sure it's a bit meh, but I think it gets the job done.
     
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  12. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    (from minutes 28:30)
     
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  13. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    Not bad, I actually think the placement of structures in the route is actually very accurate in the new route for TSW 2. I can’t wait to run down that mainline at 155 mph!
     
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  14. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    I actually think, from the POV of the screenshot, that this building is actually accurately placed and is of accurate dimensions. Of course TSW 2 won’t let u walk over to that building to check it for ur self, but from the view you get from the ICE train (I actually noticed we’ll finally get a red 442 train too), the building is accurate. Maybe when we actually get to play the game and we’re finally running at 155 mph down that line, you’ll be able to see for yourself if the cathedral is placed accurately and is of correct height, using the pics and vids posted here as references of course.;)
     
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  15. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Good video....! Looks like the main shed/hall is about 35m (100ft) tall - so I am sure that if you do the trig, you will find that the scale is just about right. If you can free cam anywhere near the top of the cathedral spires, then I am sure that this massive station will look tiny when you look down on it. I am actually quite surprised at the level of detail in the cathedral model - it's probably not quite the same as Notre Dame in Assassins Creed.... but I doubt that DTG has modelled inside the cathedral as well.

    If the key criticism with the TSW2 launch package is that the cathedral isn't as detailed as it could have been, then TSW2 will have done an absolutely marvellous job with the three routes.
     
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  16. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that would be amazing, I would happily take this - one weird building in the otherwise flawless game. :D
     
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  17. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne_Cathedral
     
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  18. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Every evening I say a prayer in the hope that one day DTG will carry out the "south" route through the bridge over the Rhine, perhaps to Frankfurt. From this railway bridge we got the Cathedral just in front of us. A real breathtaking view.

    From minutes: 01:05:00
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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  19. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Köln - Frankfurt would be great. It is rather long and 300 km/h, not just 250 like here + the ICE3s usually run doubled there and that's one hell of a long passenger train.
     
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  20. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I noticed that just before you cross the bridge in this video, that the great cathedral disappears from view, almost as if it is smaller in real life than it is in real life. So, even from the other side of the station, you get the "cathedral is too small effect" - even with a video camera....!

    Or..... it might just be that in that moment that the bridge was closer to the video camera than the cathedral, and that this creates some sort of distortion in perspective of the real sizes. I can't be sure. I sometimes get the same problem with the Moon. If I put my hand in front of the Moon, then the Moon gets completely blocked from view, but in real life the Moon is much bigger than my hand.... so the experts keep telling us - it could just all be lies, like the horrible "alternative fact" that the Earth is ball-shaped, when it is obvious to any sensible person that it is completely flat, and you can see this with your own eyes........! ;-O
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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  21. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    According with Wikipedia, the Cathedral towers are 157 meters high. In both videos the "problem" is that train-camera is, obviously, closed to the route. You can see initial part of the bridge in the pic (above, following the railway to south).
    Immediately crossed the bridge, the route turn drastically on right side and entering in Cologne Hbf (main/central station).
    That's reason (probably not the only one) why the speed limit is fixed to only 20km/h in all the section (from before the bridge 'till the station).

    Now, our next route is on the other side ("north", "north-west")
    ...but maybe we can always reach the bridge by walking :D

    Update: 516ft, 157meters
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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  22. skyMutt

    skyMutt Active Member

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    Hold on a minute, so there's already people pointing out slight differences in a well-made model of a single cathedral in game, yet I've not seen a SINGLE mention in these forums of the entire skyline of New York City LITERALLY being completely absent from the LIRR and NEC routes???? Hell, theres a ton of other little landmarks that should be visible in various other routes, but they're not there anyways. Consider ourselves lucky that we're even getting something like this haha

    I meant this in a lighthearted manner of course ;) I think the model of the cathedral in-game looks absolutely stunning, I couldn't really tell any major differences between that and irl photos.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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  23. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Yeah..... you say that.... but......

    .....what if you were buying a copy of Cathedral Simulator, and you bought the Koln edition, and you found that the trains whizzing past looked a bit small and blurry, and you suspected that they might not be to scale....? That wouldn't be very satisfying at all. You'd want decently authentic trains to go past your cathedral, wouldn't you.... ?

    Obviously the transepts and flying buttresses would take priority.... but you'd still want decently modelled trains....! ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  24. skyMutt

    skyMutt Active Member

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    Well yeah, quite certainly!
    But im also a guy who really enjoys playing something like Cities:Skylines, where you can construct entire train networks and what not. The trains in that game (at least in the unmodded base game) are loosely based on real locomotives. They don't have functioning doors or even have trackside signals for that matter! But the fact that theyre there to begin with already satisfies me and gets the job done. Any further level of detail, I see as a bonus.

    Its pretty much like the example you provided actually! The fact that the cathedral is modeled in TSW2 is awesome and definitely ups the immersion factor. But whether or not its a few meters short, or if a particular gargoyle on top of a structure isn't there....it doesn't really take away from the experience that much, and is diving into nit-picking territory. Especially since I'm more focused on bringing the train to a stop at the station right next to it. I'm simply already happy that there's a significant landmark in the game thats reasonably modeled :D
    The guys who work on the scenery in DLCs are getting much better than they were back in the early days of TSW routes
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  25. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    I kinda had to stop myself from laughing here, to be honest, this is jut to ridiculous a complaint... I really don't see the problem, it looks pretty good and accurate to me? Are you serious?
     
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  26. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    ***NOT A SPOILER***

    Okay - this is my final attempt to calm the cathedral woes and assure people that everything is going to be okay.

    This is the sort of thing you are going to get with the cathedral, taken from my new "mobile kettle" loco, while on a tourist trip on the Koln-Koblenz line on TS1... only probably with an even better model in TSW2..... (but obviously not the fantastic lighting you get in TS1):

    TSW2 Comparison View.jpg

    We need locos.jpg

    Oh Meinen Glocken.jpg

    Ooooh - apologies - I tend to mostly run stuff at night....... but you get the idea..... ;-)
     
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  27. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    And here's my kettle, if anyone wants a cup of tea to warm up and relax....:

    Anyone Want A Cup Of Tea.jpg
     
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  28. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    Me too, I don’t see anything wrong with it and based on all these vids and references it’s not really a big difference between the rl and simulated versions. Of course it’s all a matter of perspective, but then again I don’t see the problem in the 2 different versions.
     
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  29. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    And I think that pretty much proves that the TSW 2 and TS1 versions of the cathedral have no big difference than the real version of the structure. Sure it’s not Cathedral Simulator like u made up (lol), but at least it’s a pretty decently modeled version of a true German landmark.;)
     
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  30. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Daylight versions (in winter):

    ICEd Tea.jpg

    Elevation.jpg

    Scale comparison.jpg
     
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  31. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    And these last two shots are for a bit more fun..... But I should point out that in TS1 the models are not really designed to be walked around up close, but in the case of this cathedral, they really did a fantastic job

    It will be fine in TSW2......

    No Wonder It Took 600 Years.jpg

    Clear The Way Ladies.jpg
     
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  32. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    The church looks very well detailed and seems to have the right scale, so I don't really understand what the criticism in this thread is about, but your first sentence is ludicrous. So because PAST routes in TSW featured unrealistic scenery and models that are not prototypical, means that for a brand new product they have launched considered the "evolution of Train Simulator," we should give them a pass on it? I have no problem if they want to re-use assets for a generic house along an adjacent street, but key landmarks should ABSOLUTELY be depicted in any route. I don't see how anyone can defend a decision to omit buildings that stand out (ie. the skyscrapers in Essen Hbf for example), much less do it in what is considered the sequel to their simulator.
     
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  33. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely agree with you but keep in mind that from lowest performance console to high-ranking performance pc there is a huge gap in terms of hardware. And TSW is developed as a single project to run also on Xbox One standard. Just yesterday on Xbox One forum section someone said that the game crashing (constantly) at Miles Platting on Northern Trans-Pennine route. And at Miles Platting I noticed just 4 tracks (split in 2 routes) and a small station. That's the price we all have to pay or like I prefer the other face of the medal. Because unfortunately or fortunately there is not a standard for the hardware in our gaming generation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  34. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Yes I agree with you, DTG have to consider the gap between the lowest performing PC to the highest performing console, and then optimise for a wide population of people. Because there are so many poorly performing PCs, the spec can get dragged down a bit.

    But on TS1, they produced a fairly good model for the cathedral that can be displayed on a very cheap PC. I expect that with TSW2 there will be something even better, and I hope that the average PC will be able to cope with it.
     
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  35. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Judging by Plastic Pal's TS1 screenshots of the cathedral, isn't it exactly the same model in these TSW2 screenshots? Looks pretty close to me, I wonder if they just reused the TS1 model.
     
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  36. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Koln-Koblenz is circa 2014.... So I would hope that some improvements have been made in the last six/seven years. But frankly, if that model is good enough (and it is better than the average church***....), then that is fair enough.

    ***I noticed that there is a very large church in TVL that is exactly the same church used in NTP....... ;-)
     
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  37. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    I passed through Miles Platting station many times from the 1960s until it closed and DTG have modelled it very well. Apart from the missing signal box. ;)
     
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  38. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well there are also a few original TS1 Kuju buildings reused in TSW, and keep in mind that those Kuju buildings are from 2007! Of course I personally have no problem with them, considering they are good generic buildings and there is really not much to remodell on a cube with windows.

    But if they reused building models from their 13 year old Rail Simulator days, then I wouldn't be suprised if they reused the old cathedral model as well. I have no problem with it as long as it's not too ugly in-game, but of course it's a bit hard to tell from just one picture. We'll see once it releases and we can have a closer look, I suppose.
     
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  39. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    have always maintained since GWE that one of DTG's strengths is knowing how to reproduce the routes also from a landscape point of view. Of course, technical limits permitting (related to hardware). My previous post was totally focused on this thread: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/trans-penine-update.23571/
    where precisely, in an apparently not "chaotic" area (4 tracks and a station) the game constantly crashes (only on Xbox One standard).
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  40. dave from Cornwall

    dave from Cornwall Active Member

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    I assume that all the discussion for Cathedral spires are to enable a certain couple of tourists that have a deep interest in them... to visit?
     
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  41. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn’t call my first sentence ludicrous and I wasn’t meaning it as a defence for the poor modelling or omission of other major landmark but more of an observation that the models in TSW and TSW2 are not going to be perfect replications of the actual surroundings, and that the detail that’s included won’t look right to locals. I agree that specific major landmarks should be included, like Trellick Tower should be there in GWE, and they should be as accurate as possible but in this case the criticism of the cathedral was that it wasn’t absolutely perfect in it’s depiction. The first sentence was never meant to stand alone and the last sentence was meant as a criticism of the fact that there are glaring omissions elsewhere in TSW, although it might not read that way.
     
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  42. xpert2036

    xpert2036 Guest

    The fact this thread is a thing is bad enough
     
  43. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    This thread has been interesting and entertaining. It’s helping us pass the time until we have something important to talk about ;)
     
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  44. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    Coming into this forum I'm always sitting down with a coffee or a cup of tea... I'll while away 20 mins or so, often laughing, often picking up interesting snippits of info, and often find myself entertained!
    Occasionally, I may even nod off! ;)
     
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  45. xpert2036

    xpert2036 Guest

    This website is very funny & has some interesting Facts
     
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  46. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    It quite definitely seems like the same model being used. Shouldn't there be a difference between the 2014 TS and 2020 TSW2 asset? If TS six years ago could handle this, surely TSW2 could handle something more detailed. It is often mentioned as the best looking train simulation out there, yet it uses such assets. The model you've shown in the screenshots is perfectly fine for TS, let alone six years ago, but with TSW in this year I would expect a bit of a move forward. And putting the quality of models to the side isn't it interesting that models from TS apparently CAN get used in TSW? We've been told many times everything is TSW has to be built from the ground up. Well looks like that might not be the case.
     
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  47. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    We don't know for sure that it is the same model. If I had to guess, I would guess that the model has been updated for TSW2. If you can walk to the end of the platforms at Koln, then the cathedral will be in your face... (and through the glass windows in the shed). It will get a lot of scrutiny - look at the scrutiny in just this thread.... ;-O

    So I am expecting an upgraded model. It would not be that hard to make this cathedral a feature, as most of the structural components are duplicated many times. So far we have just seen the teaser. ;-)
     
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  48. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    What am I looking at?... to sum it up. It's a decent picture depicting that type of train, at that station with a representation of the surrounding area.
    If everyone is expecting every facet and detail to be correct down to the last millimetre, then you will never be satisfied.
     
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  49. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I hope they have correctly depicted the stains from ageing on the concrete bridge!

    I will be very happy if they have included the two Klais organs in the model of the Cathedral, complete with soundtrack, but I doubt it!
     
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  50. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think some people are clearly warming up by finding faults in shots of something not even released, they are going to have a field day finding minor faults when it is released!
     
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