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Why Are We Left In The Dark?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by The7Train, Dec 1, 2018.

  1. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    In a recent post I commented on the patience of the community, in particular over the editor, and how grateful DTG must be that people stick with them. Now we have the promise of an open beta (not made so long ago) this year being pushed to the ‘New Year’. Again remarkably and also impressively there’s no revolt.

    What is also interesting is that it’s the DTG update is a very carefully worded piece of corporate PR. The revised date is the ‘New Year’ which when you’re in the holiday season suggests not long after ‘Xmas. But is ‘new’ year really ‘next’ year? Is it January or is it 2019? Interestingly it’s not with their Internal Beta group yet, something you might have expected to already be the case when they originally suggested end 2018!

    To further add to the Corporate speak the ‘good’ news about the delay is that it will give more time for documentation and tutorials to be worked on. As for the ‘benefit from the early feedback coming in from the initial testing group’ what does that mean? That presumably the bugs and issues identified in the first rounds of testing can be addressed? If there had t been a delay they wouldn’t?

    The good news is that something is going out to third party developers and when it also reaches the internal Beta group it’s at least reached another level of testing but to me I think it’s going to be a while yet.

    Having worked as a Project Manager I kind of admire DTG’s sheer cheek. Never, ever did I even think of try to mollify users by telling them that the good news about a further delay was that we’d have time to do better documentation
     
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  2. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    I think your mention of PCars 2 is interesting. I had my issues with PCars 1 and didn't purchase PCars 2, Assetto Corsa was good enough for me, as they are similar games. The reason that PCars though needs to be that way is because that genre is incredibly competitive. There is Gran Turismo, Project Cars, Forza, Assetto Corsa, and even older games. If your game isn't good, it's not going to last. Similar to Cities XL and Cities Skylines and Sim City, look who survived. The reality is when you have competition, it makes you HAVE to be better. The racing genre is large enough for many large fish, and many large fish partake in the feeding, but those fish have to be really good fish.

    Here, the food is limited, and so are the number of devs. DTG's competition in the train sim market is only Trainz, if they are being unique and beating them out, why change? No one else is really close to them. Something to think about.

    I don't think they promised anything by the holidays, only that it was their target. If you can prove me wrong, then I retract what I say next, but this kind of mentality that something is "promised" when it's just a target is a great example of this community spinning the words of DTG. I see this a lot, what is planned is taken as promised, and when they have to delay it's "Look they are doing it again they don't care they are taking advantage of us!!!!!" and the reality is they are just saying "Hey, it's not done yet, sorry but we are still working on it". People here ask for updates and we get them (limited but we do), and they are honest in saying something is going to be delayed, yet people still get mad. I get the frustration, but what more can we want from them? The editor isn't a cost from DTG to us, it's a free tool that will expand the game and they want to use it to refine the game using users like us.

    I really find these "we were promised something by xxx" and the reality is otherwise is part of the issue here too, spinning words isn't making things better....
     
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  3. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    In the update they say

    ‘Last time I discussed the Editor I indicated that our hope was to be able to release it this side of Christmas’

    Hope, target, desire, intention, plan, indicate - in the end if you’re a commercial company when you suggest dates to your client base I think it’s rather more than a fanciful whim. Typhomat while I understand what you’re saying this issue of the promised editor is anything but a new topic. DTG had been reluctant to give any indication in the past so when they finally did stick some suggested target date up on the wall they knew that the community would take notice.

    As for it being a ‘free tool’ I think that’s a bit contentious as well. You might find more than a few people who feel that it should have been included in past DLCs that they’ve paid for and it’s more an omission of a feature that should have been provided from the start rather than some freebie from the nice people at DTG.
     
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  4. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest it's effectively become a promise because it's influenced so many customers in their purchase of TSW. If from TSW's release DTG had said "the editor won't be available for two years, until then we'll be the only creators of DLC", it would certainly have lowered the number of people purchasing TSW. Therefore, having given the customer the belief that the editor would be coming soon and increasing sales because of it, DTG have a moral obligation, if nothing else, to release the editor. I might go so far as to say a legal obligation too, as I would imagine a judge would have a hard time believing that DTG were unaware that the 'suggestion' of developer tools would have a positive influence on their sales, as well as it being a reasonable expecation on the customer's part, given the precedent of past titles in the genre (MSTS, Trainz and TS2019), that when purchasing TSW, the developer tools would be released soon after.
     
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  5. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Digital Draftsman I don’t disagree that people weren’t influenced by a future editor but I’d also suggest

    - there is more than a reasonable number not buying or moving to TSW until there is a working editor (DTG are hurting themselves financially by not having one)

    - if the editor was cancelled (unlikely) or wasn’t fit for purpose in lacking key features (slightly likely) a lot of people would give up on the product there and then

    DTG need an editor just as much as the users do.
     
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  6. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I’m having a dangerous outbreak of morale / positivity (it’ll never catch on) but I’m heartened to read that they’ve responded to feedback and have already started to look at the way files are cooked to allow the community to edit existing content. Only a few weeks ago the party line was ‘that’s not going to be possible’. I’m also very pleased to hear that ‘third parties’ will likely have access to this editor before the year end.

    Also, we all (me included) have laid into DTG on many occasions for releasing bugged & rushed software. Maybe we should be happy that they’re taking their time to get this right (of course if it’s late & buggy that’s another matter)

    I’m going to sit in a darkened room. This optimism is giving me a headache.
     
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  7. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    All of what you say is true. However, something that's crossed my mind on a couple of occasions; If there was an issue with licensing the editor which resulted in DTG be unable to release the editor, would DTG announce that as soon as they knew? Or would they play for time to reduce their losses?
     
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  8. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    A suggested, intended, planned date is all of that, it's not a guarantee. Many companies plan on releasing something by a particular date only to realize it's not realistic and delay so that they can meet their expectations. People kept asking, and it was something that was known to be coming. Sticking a date on it gives the team a release goal, and people an idea that it's coming. That's all, and I feel that the use of the word "promised" in terms of what DTG has said is stretched and only used to put them down unfairly, and adding to the negativity. I would bet that most people here will not use the editor anyway.

    As for the whole free thing, it can be considered part of the base game and you paid for it already and this and that.... and up to this point there is no announced cost to users who want to use it. It was never a planned release feature though. The reality is that there is motivation to release it for them since it may bring 3rd party devs who can help add content and expand the userbase, but that's all.
     
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  9. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Typhomat ’it was never a planned release feature’? Want to quote a source for that or perhaps what you mean by that? Is ‘release’ the initial release, or any release of DLC?

    I don’t recall saying that it was guaranteed, in fact I’d be one of the last to say that as I’ve consistently suggested that delivering the editor is a complex task. I’m not at all surprised they’ve found it challenging.

    As for not many people using it in some ways I don’t disagree with you. The existing TS1 editor many would be migrating from isn’t the easiest piece of software to use but I think it’s going look like child’s play compared with the TSW one. I also think there’s going to be less functionality and more restrictions in the TSW one. However I think a large number of TSW users plan to try to use the editor when it’s available, and good for them. There are some pretty skilled users out there and some no doubt will make a great success of it.

    However I’ve been reading these forums for some time and I’ve seen plenty of posts that for a large number of users the provision of an editor is a must and the delay is a big deal. Perhaps over time they’ve changed their minds but I doubt it.

    As for DTG embracing 3rd party developers (or wanting them to be part of the process) there’s some history there not just on the Rail side but the Flight side as well. The idea that the editor is there primarily for the third party developers I wouldn’t agree with, but perhaps you have some evidence of that. Of course there’s not been a whole lot of evidence either that there’s a queue of third party developers waiting to add new content, but I’m sure that can be explained by the ‘probable’ existence of NDA agreements between them and DTG.

    Pointing out that DTG have yet again slipped - let’s call it a ‘suggested’ date - isn’t negativity it’s a fact. And if we’re not meant to be taking any of these ‘targets’ seriously why on earth have they suggested a revised one?
     
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  10. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    "Pointing out that DTG have yet again slipped - let’s call it a ‘suggested’ date - isn’t negativity it’s a fact. And if we’re not meant to be taking any of these ‘targets’ seriously why on earth have they suggested a revised one?"

    Good point!
     
  11. Lombra

    Lombra Member

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    Heh, eerily similar to that time where for, I believe, GWE they went "good news everyone, we're extending the preorder discount! This also means we get some more time to polish the route before release". Though, I think this time they were more upfront with simply needing more time being the primary issue.
     
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  12. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    What patch? I didn't see any patches released for LIRR yesterday and from what I'm aware the issue you are referring to was from a non-public build. I don't know the full circumstances but it appears it came from someone doing testing for DTG... so yes they do.
     
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  13. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Well-Known Member

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    only update in the last 7 days was on internal branches - no public update to LIRR since day 1. I assume you didnt want to tell the truth?

    also that video was mistakenly uploaded from an internal build - appropriate action was taken on it and it was plugged.
     
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  14. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    To go off and accuse them of releasing something that broke your game when as far as I am aware nothing was released and not even specifying your issue is also disrespectful to the devs. This kind of attitude isn't going to make the game better or fix issues faster, it only erodes your arguments.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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  15. The7Train

    The7Train Member

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    I went off because of the amount of quality I receive from DTG made me believe this issue was caused by an update. Mistakes happen, but my point still stands. Let's move on from that topic, and I'll investigate next time something like that happens.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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  16. Louwe

    Louwe Member

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    I agree with Antony, he realy has a point. No (simulator) game is perfect or will be. I myself love flightsim, ts, etc. from the beginning early start. Microsoft always struggled with perfection and that is a huge company, even Lockheed can't make it 100% with Prepar3d, the sims are nice to play as a game, not as a real life simulator...I love to play the sims and don't give much attention on the bugs and play it just to have fun, however, the cabbin sounds could be mutch better :). I don't say that DTG can get away with giving no replies or do nothing with the comments given but i think too that they do their best. And hey, no one push(ed)you to buy it.... Here in Holland we say: You can allways find a stick to hit the dog.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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  17. Louwe

    Louwe Member

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    Why so hard? If you like the game buy it or else don't, give me just one simulater which is 100%, believe me you don't.
     
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  18. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Louwe while I understand your point Microsoft’s involvement with Flight Simulator is way back and something that wasn’t ever really a corporate priority for them.

    Given the passage of time and the advances in both hardware and software shouldn’t the bar be raised a little?
     
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  19. The7Train

    The7Train Member

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    This!
     
  20. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Active Member

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    What is criticized by DTG is above all their communication. It is non-existent. I speak on this official forum.
    Do not talk to me about Discord, I'm not going, because already, here, I have to go through Google translation.
    No information on bugs, repairs of old DLC, and so on.
    There, I stop any purchase of DLC, as the others will not be repaired.
     
  21. Louwe

    Louwe Member

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    I now, i now, but even Lockheed cant make a good sim after Microsoft stopt devalopping it. My point is that ypu will never find a good 100% sim game. Fsx and later on Prepar3d is a high standing game thats not what i try to say, but you have to buy dlc's to make it a bit better to fly V.O.R otherwise it's a big mess trying to find an airport. Even with flying I.F.R you do not have the 100% bacons. I have NL2000 for free and the guys had many years struggeling putting the good freq. and buildings on the right place etc. When you fly above the clouds trying to find an airport you have to deal with lots and lots problems to navigate the world, Microsoft tried to make a sim with thousend airports but when you look how the airport lookes, man, man, man.....A guy who bought TSW to told me that he lives along the GWE route and says:"the house where i live does not stand at the correct street, i live in a building aprox 200 meters from the line and cant see the track". O, man …….give me a breake. Enjoy the game as it is, you can always find a stick to hit the dog.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  22. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Louwe personally, despite at one time being an avid FSX user the split of the franchise and what happened next always confuses me. What I do think is that Lockheed never intended Prepar3d to become a ‘game’ and the licensing split was intended to avoid exactly that situation

    Using FSX as an example to defend DTG is also perhaps a little perverse. There are more than a few flightsimmers and third party developers (e.g. Mathijs Kok at Aerosoft) who haven’t exactly been polite about DTG’s acquisition of the Steam rights and how that has stunted FSX development. There might be truth in it given how many people have jumped to P3.

    On other simulation games on the transportation side I’ve seen posts from others on this forum pointing out a gap between TS and bus and Lorry/truck simulations. From what I’ve seen, and I’ve limited experience, some of the racing games seem to have built huge franchises presumably because the positives outweigh the negatives.

    Most of the criticisms on here (and they’re widely shared) aren’t that the base TS1 and TSW products are bad it’s just that released DLC often has lots of preventable and catchable bugs. Notably other third parties producing content for TS1 (and there are none yet for TSW) don’t get the same level of criticism. For example I buy just about everything Armstrong Powerhouse makes. Why? It may not be cheap but it’s good, works as it’s meant to a pleasure to use. Their enhancement packs transform some pretty awful DTG DLC. And if you have a question, or think you’ve seen an issue they’ll get back to you in a day or so.

    So, if AP can do it, an even smaller company than DTG, why can’t DTG do it?

    If DTG was to work on the number of bugs that get out - or fix them soon afterwards - the negative comments would stop.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
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  23. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    ^ Interesting summary that offers some insights that look bang on to me. Well worth a read.
     
  24. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I still recommend buying more DLC so that DTG can be supported and have money to use to fix things and keep TSW going.
     
    Anthony Pecoraro
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  25. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    I imagine dtg more than anyone would want the editor up asap. Consumers are far more likely to buy route and loco dlc if they can mix and match.
     
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  26. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro I’ve given them lots of money. What did they do with that? Will they promise to spend it more wisely going forward?

    From a TS 1 point of view what’s really sad is giving them money for some really bad piece of DLC because a) I want to get the AP enhancement pack to make it usable or b) it’s needed for some freeware route that I want.

    People like DPSimulation and BackdatedTrainSim should be getting monthly checks from DTG for all the sales of old and generally useless routes their freeware needs generate!
     
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  27. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    That is not the way to think.

    I will only purchase DLC that I am interested in and if it has good reviews and relatively few bugs.

    No one should have to buy DLC *just* to keep DTG afloat. I appreciate they are a small company but they shouldn’t be relying on sales to fix bugs. In fact the bug list is only going to get bigger as more DLC gets churned out, as bugs outweigh the fixes.

    As another person posted, AP have a very high customer satisfaction and relatively few bugs at release. Why? Because they do things properly the first time, and do not take months, if not years, to fix bugs.
     
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  28. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    Are you like... disabled by any chance? I seriously cant think of any other reason why you would waste most of your own freetime riding on DTG's - with the worst argumentation possible. All DTG have been doing is grabbing money from their customers (for the past 2 years) by releasing Dlc after Dlc without fixing the old ones and keeping the core the same. Hell, they didnt even bother to rework the map (key 9) into something useful in these 2 years.

    Its a serious question for clarification reasons from my end, nothing mean meant by it.
     
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  29. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Good thing you havent got the responsibility for purchasing hospital equipment, aeroplane parts. or anything that might actually have to work as advertised.
     
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  30. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    That kind of attitude is disgusting.... to question if someone is disabled because they have an opinion you don't agree with is toxic behavior.

    I agree with Anthony too, it's why j purchase content I'm interested in. If they keep making sales then content keeps coming, and improvements can be made. It's not like they haven't released updates with almost every released TSW dlc... I think if they lose a lot in sales then they will be forced to make drastic changes but that's unlikely to occur. If you want to see improvements and build your own collection then purchasing their content is a way to support the stream of new content. Once an editor comes out that might change but until then it's the best we can do to help improvements happen.
     
  31. Puffing Nora

    Puffing Nora Guest

    Im not even sure if its as simple as modifying DTGs strategy. They may simply lack the technical expertise, in which case a focus on hiring people with UE4 technical expertise might be warranted, and trim off some of the dead wood employees that sustain this unacceptable cycle of releasing products that are so obviously flawed (bugs known to all so wont list them here).

    On an unrelated note, to make such comments Keksman reveals exactly what sort of values you possess. A period of self reflection might be in order, and I would begin by asking yourself if you value kindness as a quality and other people in general. It was a cruel thing to say regardless, and an apology wouldnt be out of order.
     
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  32. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Typhomat totally agree with your rebuke on the ‘disabled’ comment.

    Not as sure in your other arguement that the only way out is to buy more and support new content. I also don’t believe that the editor is the answer. Some concept that then the users can fix the errors seems odd, if not also troublesome given the strict copyright laws that exist. You might be able to fix something, whether you can share that with the community it might almost be on a case by case basis.

    The problem is that DTG are just so messed up. There’s a really great post by pschlik on the Pre Order for the Trans Pennine thread. He pointed out that the store page listing significantly overstates the length of the route and that it talks about users ‘working freight’. TrainSim-Martin thanked him and said they’d update it and correct but there’s a marketing department that can’t catch this? How basic is it to list the length of the route and whether the included content is passenger, freight or both? Actually rather than a thank you a free copy of the DLC for the platform of his choice might have been more appropriate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
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  33. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t mention buying DLC just to help them. I do only buy what I’m interested in. I mean that you should buy what you like.
     
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  34. The7Train

    The7Train Member

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    So, as usual, silence from DTG. What exactly is holding the editor back from being released?
     
  35. Alex01

    Alex01 Active Member

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    DTG is taking they time
     
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  36. Alex01

    Alex01 Active Member

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  37. The7Train

    The7Train Member

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    Because you keep repeating the same thing. I know they're taking their time, but its been close to a month since we have heard anything.
     
  38. Alex01

    Alex01 Active Member

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    they have holiday so DTG does not work always
     
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  39. 37114

    37114 Active Member

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    Jeez! It's the first full week back at work after the Christmas break. Give the Mince Pies time to settle.
     
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  40. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    What is holding up the editor is the fact that DTG wants to make sure that it works correctly and not cause bigger headaches.
     
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  41. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It’s simple. The editor isn’t ready for release yet.
     
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  42. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro i don’t think that’s a given. You could well be right but unless you’re ITK we don’t know that.

    As I remember it they were entering into an internal and 3rd party testing phase around ‘Xmas and I don’t think there’s been any indication of how that’s going. If it’s gone well then they could be wrapping it for release, if it hasn’t there could be further delay. Equally how much work actually got done in the holiday period in terms of testing might be an interesting question. I think it’s important that we remember that this is going to be a beta test release - not the final editor. How that goes will again drive what the final release date is for the editor. What we also don’t know is whether work people do in the beta will be usable going forward (we don’t know how similar the beta and final version will be). So, it’ll be kind of proceed with care.

    My expectation is that for the Beta DTG won’t release a perfect version. It may well have known issues (non critical faults and even missing features) that were identified in their own testing. They likely will have expectations that the Beta will throw up issues - for example instabilities created by all of the different hardware and software versions the beta will be exposed to. One advantage they will have (over TS1) is a fairly finite amount of DLC to have to manage, and no third party elements other than what people add themselves.

    I’m NOT suggesting that DTG are going to release a poor test version, but equally I’d suggest expecting that it’s going to be without issues likely will lead to disappointment.

    What everyone needs to remember is what is coming is a test version, not the ‘production’ one. Nothing wrong in that, and the community will welcome the test version, but the date of the ‘editor’ truly being available is still likely some months away.
     
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  43. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Guest

    But DTG uses the same editor to develop content for TSW. So what's wrong with it?
     
  44. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Fabrizio520 if it’s the same why do they need to test it and why has it taken so long to release?
     
  45. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I was expecting a ‘welcome back’ or New Years’ message/post on these forums from someone at DTG but I haven’t so far.

    Also I don’t think anyone has heard from Matt since the Christmas breakup?
     
  46. The7Train

    The7Train Member

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    not a single word. you think they would assure us that everything is going as planned instead of leaving us in the dark.
     
  47. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Did you see the post from the new CM?
     
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  48. NorthRail1

    NorthRail1 Well-Known Member

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    The reason behind the lack of communication so far this year from DTG is probably because the new community manager has just started working there. There will be a dev stream next week so there will probably be news soon.
     
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  49. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Luke was a good community manager, at least a lot better than the previous one (Jay, I think he was called?)

    Let’s hope this new community manager can provide a decent level of customer service, or better, raise the bar even higher.

    It’s about time we had decent communication from DTG. I’d of thought they’d have learnt from their mistakes by now.
     
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  50. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    DTG have access to the full uncooked asset data. Third party developers (3PD) and ordinary users will only have access to cooked asset data. From the various studio update articles and Matt's two hour stream on the TSW editor it's clear that a significant part of the delay has been testing whether or not non DTG users can successfully reference and use cooked asset data in new routes and scenarios.

    At times (often?) it has been necessary to make changes to the underlying data (and code?) to allow this to happen. In addition DTG have been trying to make the editor more user friendly for ordinary users not to mention working on documenting TSW configuration and functionality.
     
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